I really love these pieces! Anyone else?

They're good for my technique and fun to play...what more could you ask for?!

I like most Debussy both to listen to and to play: Although lots of it is bordering on the impossible to play at first, it comes under the fingers surprisingly quickly. I've been working on Minstrels from the first book of preludes for about a month and yesterday, for the first time, I found I was concentrating on dynamics and phrasing rather than mere notes. I'm also working on Jardins Sous Le Pluie from Estampes: Fiendish at first, but it's coming (rather slower than the prelude though!)

Childrens Corner, Suite Bergamasque and Images are still on the shopping list (or should that be the Chopin Liszt?)

I like some of them, but not too keen on 'Jimbo's Lullaby' or 'The Little Shepherd' (even though that's a famous one?) as I don't quite get them, if you get what I mean.

By the way, how fast do you play Dr Gradus? I like the Sims version in how it's played reasonably fast... Although notably, they did class some of Bach's Inventions as harder than they should have by increasing the tempo too...


~Wobby~

Hurrah, me too!!

I spent ages learning Dr G + P when I was young so I could play it really fast - in reflection too fast but what fun!

LOVE the arabesques, and Bergamasque, actually all Debussy is fab!

I play a few pieces by Claude, though they're not completely up to scratch, Ist Arabeske, Prelude and Clair de Lune from suite Bergamasque, Reverie and an Album leaf...but none from Childrens Corner, much as i like some of them. Always liked dR Gradus and Jimbos lullaby. Wish i knew more of his, I find his music difficult to play, but well worth the efforts.

How fast is Dr Grad meant to be and what grade is it?

Debussy is great! I've been in this 'impressionist' phase lately and simply can't stop listening/humming/singing Debussy's music.. Wish I could play those though!

Anybody? Sorry to be impatient, I just am

Since no one has yet replied I'll give you my vague-but-potentially-better-than-nothing answer; which I was witholding in the hope of someone else knowing something more useful . At the Stalybridge concert two years ago someone who was preparing for an LCM diploma (dipLCM I think) played this as a practice for the exam. So I'd guess it's around diploma level. As for the speed I couldn't give you a meteronome marking off the top of my head from 2 years ago , in fact I can't remember what the piece sounded like. All I can recall is the name of the person and being impressed by her playing . Perhaps if you look it up on Amazon or similar you could get an idea for speed from the first 20 seconds .

Dr Gradus is about diploma level??!!!

I would have put it at a difficult G5 - anyone else?

Another pupil of my teacher is playing this at the music festival next month and she is only grade 6 standard..

According to the Edexcel difficulty list for A level it is Grade 8. This suggests that one of the main examining boards has set it for Grade 8 in the past.

I think the grade 8 is because of the interpritation and music theory needed. The notes will be aroung grade 6 or 7.

My copy of Children's Corner is edited by Maurice Hinson (published by Alfred).
He has it marked as quarter note = 144-152 (quarter note = 192 Debussy).
The Debussy tempo comes from a "recording made in 1913 for Welte Music Rolls".
Most of Hinson's tempos are rather slower than the Debussy piano roll tempos (except for Serenade for the Doll).

In Hinson's notes for Dr. G. he quotes Debussy as writing to a friend:

But it runs so nicely under the fingers...And I'm only G6...?

And believe me, I don't play it slow. Maybe it's easier than thought? Or perhaps I'm better than I think I am?

But thanks anyway!

Dr G ad Parnassum is on the Trinity Guildhall syllabus for Grade 8 for the years 07-08. I also love the l'cathedral engloutie, and it's got a really good story behind it!

. . . currently on the DipABRSM repertoire list.


Pray, tell more!

I think it sounds best at 192!

In terms of the standard, much like always, it depends on the tempo, and the complexity of interpretation you are expecting. In terms of just getting to grips with the notes, it's not too far from Hanon...

By the way, for those that haven't heard the Sim's version of the piece, you can go here, look under Doctor Gradus, and then click preview... and you can look over the others too if you feel so inclined - oops, the last of their Inventions is wrong - it's the F Prelude by Chopin, not an Invention by Bach!

~Wobby~

Thanks Wobby, that's good for us 'un-simmed' people!

AND very fast!

Digging up an old topic here...bear with me.

I always find it odd when people set a 'tempo' for Debussy. Debussy himself refused to set any tempo for his pieces, only a rough marker such as 'animated', which could be interpreted differently by anybody playing it. That's why I love Debussy so much, because everybody plays it differently. Having said that, I grew up listening to Richard Steiner playing Snow is Dancing and recently went onto youtube to see what other people were doing with it. I have to say, I was so shocked by what I heard. The speed at which snow is dancing was being played....it sounded like a thunder and lightning storm while people inside were being attacked by savage bees! Definitely more reminiscent of flight of the bumblebee than beautiful soft falling snow.

Perhaps I'm just strange, but when snow is dancing is played so incredibly fast, to me it doesn't sound like Debussy at all. The notes don't have a chance to blend into one another, it sounds rushed, frantic, the meaning of the piece lost.

I heard recently that there is a recording of Debussy himself playing the Children's Corner pieces and I'm assuming that's where most people got their interpretation from, if Debussy himself played at such a fast pace.

I'm just surprised because it seems like most people haven't seen falling snow when they play the piece...and if Debussy played it like that I guess he hadn't either?

Guess I'd like to hear people's opinions on this before I go insane.

Generally, I give tempi just so people have a numeric idea of the speed I am referring to - for example, 'andante' may be interpreted differently by different people (but generally it is around the same speed). If the piece was given a tempo by the composer, I'd probably stick to it, but if not, I'd go with what I think sounds best. I dislike playing interpretations of a piece though, because then you'd be playing an interpretation of an interpretation, so I'd prefer the music I play to have exactly the same notes and dynamics as on the original manuscript.


Regarding the 'Snow is Dancing' piece, I have not actually heard an extract of it, but I guess I'd play it around 95-100 region, which could be way off the typical speed, but there we go... At least I know it hasn't been influenced by someone else's interpretation yet! But I do like the Sim interpretations of the pieces they play very much!

*Goes to check YouTube*

~Wobby~

This is an interesting discussion for me, because I decided that, having learned Children's Corner a LOOOOOOONG time ago, and well able to play it from the score, it was about time I memorized it.

How difficult is Dr. Gradus ad Parnassum. Well you can hit the right notes at Grade 5, but I doubt that you would have the control to play it well enough that anyone would really enjoy listening to it until you are well past Grade 8.

As for speed, I have never known how fast to take it. I recently saw a recital by Paulo Giacometti (The Rossini specialist) where he played it as an encore. He took it very fast. He has the technique to play smoothly and quietly at speed, so it was an impressive Tour de Force, but I can't help thinking that it is not what Debussy wanted. I think it has to sound (at least in the early pages) a little hesitant, awkward, and amateurish.

Perhaps this is a problem for professionals when presenting Children's corner. They COULD use their skill to sound awkward and amateurish ... but the audience might think they could do no better.

There is a similar problem in the final piece, Golliwog's cake walk. Debussy marks his accents, crescendos etc with great precision, and if you follow them you get a very clumsy, awkward, sound - just as you might imagine a Golliwog doing a cake-walk - but it is the exact opposite of the type of accentuation and phrasing you would expect if you were brought up on Haydn and Mozart! I have yet to hear a recording or performance by a professional recitalist that is entirly faithful to Debussy's markings. Every one I have heard smooths it out and delivers a polished piece of virtuosity. I think it is the same thing - they can't bear the thought that the audience will put the sound down to their technical limitations, rather than their musical intentions.

So back to Dr. Gradus ad Parnassum. I believe it should open not especially quickly, and should always sound a little bit like a less-than-expert doing exercises. But if I play it that way will the audience think it is because I am incapable of playing it as fast and smooth as Giacometti? And should I care?

[p.s. Those Sims might have fast nimble fingers but their phrasing is lousy and the piano they play is a heap of junk!]

It's quite common when doing a recital to give a few lines of introduction to each piece, so you could always explain that you believe Debussy intended a little awkwardness at the beginning and say why - then people would be really impressed that you were giving your own interpretation.

I must admit, I feel there is a tendency among concert pianists to sacrifice the music to their virtuosity. I always feel this with "Flight of the Bumblebee"; anyone who's ever watched a bumblebee knows that it doesn't charge about like a demented mosquito at all, but everyone who performs it (including Emma Johnson on clarinet) treats the piece as a chance to show how fast a human being can play, rather than as a description of a real creature.

I'm very glad to see that there are people around on the forums who are prepared to challenge the received wisdom from today's top players. It will be a sad day when there is only one perceived "correct" interpretation of well-known pieces, and if it ever comes there will be no need for live musicians. We can just record the definitive version and sit back! Hopefully that will never happen.

I Played Dr Gradus for grade 8 but that was in 1978!!

My teacher played it for his dipLCM. As with lots of pieces of music though, the "grade" is what you make it in your playing.

Very thoughtful replies.

I think ultimately I will keep the tempo of snowflakes down to 95-100, any faster than that and it isn't the piece I fell in love with anymore. Afterall if I'm not going to be a concert pianist, all I can do is really enjoy the piece as much as possible.

Edit: another thing I wanted to add..on youtube I notice that everybody is using different fingering/hand movements to me. It's quite disconcerting. They do the thing with one hand underneath and the other hand going on top back and forth. How would I be able to tell how to do that from the sheet music, and is it necessary to use that exact hand movement?

Generally speaking, Anything Debussy writes in the treble clef is for the right hand, and anything in the bass is for the left. If both hands are written on the same stave they are usually written as clearly separate lines. Debussy uses both these methods in "The snow is dancing".

Occasionally a figure to be played by a single hand is split between the two staves. In those cases the notes in the group are usually scored as a connected group, and there is usually no choice about which of the hands takes the group, as the other will be busy elsewhere.

Where there is variation from this basic scheme Debussy usually marks it explicitly by marking the relevant notes or passages as mg (main gauche) for the left hand and md (main droite) for the right. When he doesn't do this, he has other tricks to indicate crossing hands.

Sometimes he will score a note in the bass clef for the left hand (and similarly in the treble for the right) where it would seem easier to take it as the continuation of a run with the other hand. e.g. he does this on the first page of Dr Gradus.

Another technique he uses is to score a note that is part of a group on the same stave (treble or bass) with the tail going in the opposite direction to the rest of the group. This is an indication that you should consider taking the note with the other hand, though it may also indicate simply a note of a different time-value to the rest of the group, to be played with the same hand, but held. There may also be some special mark above an affected note, staccato, accent, or tenuto.

These latter two techniques are usually unambiguous - the hand that does the crossing was doing nothing anyway - or the whole section is washed in pedal, so there is no need to hold notes for their full length with your fingers. But now and again they raise another problem. Often, to be able to cross hands, you have to release a note before it has had its full value.

Sometimes, because of the spread of notes there is no choice, but there are also cases where you could play all the notes, their full values, without crossing hands, but crossing hands helps the flow and accentuation in other ways, and is desirable for artistic/interpretative reasons. In these cases you have to make a musical judgement. Will crossing hands enhance the musical effect (bearing in mind that you will have much better control of a single high note taken with the LH) sufficiently to compensate for any compromises that it requires in other areas - or is it just a conventional flamboyant gesture that you don't really need?

Whether you are forced to cross hands, or choose to do it where it is not absolutely necessary, it can mean that the exact realization of the sound (note lengths) indicated by the score is not possible. You have two choices. You can release the impossible-to-hold-for-their-full-length note(s) early and accept their absence from the sound, or hold with the pedal, and accept the sound of other notes that get held as well, along with all the extra harmonics that are created. If you have a 3-pedal piano you have a third option. Catch the note(s) that would otherwise be released early (usually in the bass) with the third pedal, and play the rest as dry as you like.


Regarding the hand movements. In any kind of big leap, including crossing hands, it is safest to break the movement into two components:

1. Getting the hand into position
2. Taking the notes

When you get up to speed it looks like one continuous swoop - but if you start practicing it slowly as one swoop, taking the notes at the end of a graceful arc, then you are likely to hit a lot of wrong notes when you step up up to performance speed.

In extended sections where the two hands are playing in the same register, as in "The snow is dancing" it is often difficult to decide which hand should be on top. Sometimes the right way round is forced on you by where the hands have to move to when they separate. Sometimes it is forced on you as the only way to take the notes without the hands getting in each other's way. Often there is more than one way to do it, so if whatever comes naturally to you creates the right musical effect and is secure then it is probably OK. If you are stuck then watching how a good pianist does it and copying is sensible

The Debussy pieces are lovely but quite challenging. There is a really good and useful set of pieces by Jennifer Linn, Les Petites Impressions, that make a great prequel to Debussy's works for piano.