I should add in light of above comments that I'm not for a second excusing bad driving or suggesting that car drivers are at all faultless.

That said, I stand by my previous comments.

Have those of you who cycle been provided with adequate cycle lanes in your area? My local council have made a start and I do see them being used. Part of the whole green push was supposed to be the provision of these lanes wherever appropriate. I feel for cyclists to be honest. If we are fair there are dodgy drivers AND dodgy cyclists, but it's up to the drivers to be more careful. They do have the greater responsibility. Re. a query about two or more cyclists on the road earlier, are they not supposed to be regarded by the driver as a vehicle and accorded the same rules re. overtaking, space etc.? Don't know, just asking.

captainau, if you want to see an example of good cyclists please watch, my step-father, my husband, my mother, or myself. Each of us adopt a safe road position, can look behing us (the over the shoulder check) without wobbling along the road, indicate, and if necessary gain eye contact with drivers to make sure we understand who is going to fit through that small gap the better.

I actually feel that my many years experience as a cyclist has improved my skills as a driver.

Firstly we need to remove all illegal drivers off the street; there are many who continue to drive despite being banned, and if necessary imprison them. Next a series of re-testing needs to be introduced. If there are eldery people who need motorised transport to get them out of rural communities (and I know there are) then there needs to be a massive investment in things like dial a ride, so that elderly people can still have a life.

I admit I have bad driving habits, if I knew I would be subjected to regular retesting, I would be less likely to develop bad habits as I would know what standard I would need to be.

Oh and another bette noir: people who pull out just infront of you whilst you are proceeding at the national speed limit, hence forcing you to break, when the road is completley clear behind you.

What I think helped me most was the desire to drive safely and well - not just a question of whizzing from A to B!

There really is no logic to suggest that 'illegal' or 'elderly' drivers are necessarily bad drivers, surely? The former are breaking the law, but may be good drivers; the latter are not actually breaking the law by being older, and they may be good drivers (experience counts)!

If you know you have bad habits, should you do something to correct the faults, rather than waiting for the hypothetical re-test system to come about?

Your last point is quite simply bad and inconsiderate and probably dangerous driving.

yay!! And so we come full circle folks

Don't get me wrong I do work at putting my faults right. At unlike other drivers here I do not believe I'm God's gift to the motoring community and am humble enough to realise I'm not perfect.

illegal drivers are bad due to the fact they are an uninsured liablity waiting to happen. An d don't get me onto the subject of elderly drivers after an elderly women pulled onto a roundabout I was already on straight in front of me, then proceeded to do a left hand turn enterring a side street on the wrong side of the street. The only reason I could see this so clearly was that she had slowed down to almost stationary before turning so I saw the whole manoevre before the road was clear and it was safe for me to proceed safely and legally for the rest of the journey.

I know the last point I made is bad, inconsiderate and dangerous driving. I didn't say I did it, its just its happened to me when driving from Newmarket to Six Mile Bottom on a number of occasions. Fortunately my observation skills and reactions are good enough not to plough into the side of aforementioned bad driver.

Oh and yes I know my lane discipline approaching a roundabout last night was sloppy I got it wrong. I do try to drive better than that, and knew I made a mistake.

I HAVE seen situations where a middle-lane hogger caused a problem, but I do actually agree that the "drive in the left hand lane" rule needs to be tempered with common sense. Weaving back and forth across the motorway to be in the left hand lane at any given opportunity would be insane.


If it is I'd be stuffed if I did a retest. I would think extending it to that long would make it much harder - the kind of nerves and concentration that a test situation require would make an hour of the kind of tension it can engender very tiring. I know I for one, driving at that pitch, would make mistakes, even if I was perfectly capable of driving well when nerves weren't factored in.

At the other end of the scale, friend of mine in Texas was allowed to change her permit (which allowed her to drive solo anyway during the day) to a license by taking in a form filled in by her parents stating she'd done X hours of driving with them and was competent to drive alone - how's that for a system which is open to abuse...





I don't know about in France, but in England the cost of running a car is such that, for instance, my mum's elderly neighbour would be better off financially if she used taxis for her weekly shop rather than running a car. So I can't speak for France, but in England (and I do live in a rural area) I don't buy the financial argument unless people live an awful long way from the shops.

SOME elderly people are better drivers for having "grown up on the road". Others are not. I know a dear lady in our church, (in her 80s) and while I'd hate to deprive her of the freedom of her car, I hate to be driven by her, too. It is scary she is simply not a safe driver. She doesn't look, she cuts corners off junctions unmercifully, and her reactions are (unsurprisingly for her age) really bad. On the plus side, she isn't tempted to speed!

The assumption is that elderly people have grown up on the road, but some have not. I suspect my friend didn't drive at all, or very little, during her marriage, and has only had to since her husband died. I am just grateful that she doesn't drive much, and is reasonably sensible in terms of knowing what she can cope with, but even the very short drive home from church is a bit hairy if she is driving - she is a danger to herself and others, sad but true

That said, a friend of my mum's who is in her late 50s has been driving constantly all her life, and she isn't a safe driver either - scares me witless - despite being an intelligent, active woman. She simply isn't a good or safe driver... so... what can we do? (Her son passed his test 1st time with flying colours a month after his 17th birthday - and promptly wrote off his new car through his terrible driving...)

I'm not sure that any test can truly prove one will be a good, capable, sensible, considerate driver. I do wonder sometimes if tests should take into account reports from driving instructors, but then I doubt anyone would pay for lessons from someone who was too honest....

I tend (when I drive - which I haven't for a while!) to follow my mum's advice: assume everyone else on the road is a total imbecile, and drive accordingly.

I nearly laughed at that, but then I realised how close it was to being true. The only way I can survive my walk to school is to go ridiculously early or assume that I am invisible.

Please don't misunderstand jod, I was certainly not having a personal 'go'.

I hope no driver would think he is God's gift, that is dangerous. There is a difference between being good, and thinking one is perfect.

oh dear. I still can't handle the false logic of illegal and elderly. At what age do you think a driver becomes dangerous? Young drivers can also be dangerous. Middle-aged drivers can be bad drivers too. Beware of statistics - they can be misleading.

keep safe.

I think most of us are pretty fair here and not trying to deliberately find fault with any one specific group. I get a general impression that the old rules still apply: The 3 C's... courtesy, caution and consideration. Our public roads are fuller than ever nowadays and that's not going to change. My parents' advice also rang - remain focused and always anticipate that that the other driver is going to make a mistake. Keep your distance - (in the nicest possible way, of course ).

Add a 4th - assume the other drivers are all ccccccccrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrazy

(I agree with your post BTW )

if you add in Observation and Anticipation you have a good basis for safe driving

Sorry jod but I think that is an unkind and thoughtless thing to say. I hope that when you reach your late sixties or early seventies you will be healthy and sound in mind as are the majority of the population and that you will retain your right to drive. I hope that you will not be written off as an elderly statistic who, hard luck, has to rely on some service (public or private) whenever they want or need to go somewhere. I also hope your social life will not be to restricted “dial a ride” (which I find a condescending turn of phrase). I hope that if you are, for any reason, incapable of driving and would be a danger on the road to yourself or others , you will be prevented from doing so. But I hope it won’t be as a result of some cut off point decided by people in high places who know nothing of you, your capacities, your temperament behind the wheel and your transport needs.

This thread has raised some interesting points but the blind categorising of the young, the elderly, the cyclist, the driver etc. makes me very cross.

I thought as musicians we were very much aware of the individual differences, circumstances and needs.

The driver in whose car I felt the least safe was someone who, from the moment behind the wheel did nothing but criticise everyone else on the road.

Let’s ALL get out there and share the road courteously and carefully

slow drivers may tend to cause impatience in other drivers, but no one HAS to make dangerous overtaking moves. In fact they shouldn't, and the mark of a good driver is that he isn't rattled or pressurised into doing the 'wrong thing'.

Didn't you know 'everything there is to know' even before you passed your test?

The IAM used to run a test that lasted a good hour, with a top class driver beside you. Maybe it should be harder - a test of different road conditions, traffic conditions, concentration/awareness etc. Most of us don't restrict ourselves to journeys of 30 minutes or so after we pass the test, do we?

You are probably right that no test is a complete assessment of our abilities AND our attitude of mind when we get behind the wheel. Maybe the test should include a psychological assessment too. That might clear the roads a little



and another excellent post from Aquarelle.

This is the key to it all, it's not about being an able and competent driver, the test assesses that pretty well. The major problem on the roads is the attitude of the driver; to be honest I couldn't care less if the person driving me can parallel park. However, if they overtake dangerously and unnecessarily; pull out very closely in front of other cars; drive too closely to vehicles ahead of them; and are generally pushy, I'll be wanting to get out of the car. It's not their abilities that are at fault (indeed this sort of driver is generally good at manouvers and considers themselves to be a 'good' driver) it's just their attitude. There's not really a way we can test this because most people can feign politeness and courtesy for half an hour.

Maybe we need to start considering driving to be more of a privilage than a right, i.e. not be so lenient when catching people with this sort of behaviour because everyone 'needs' to drive. With everyone being so scared of being banned themselves if the law were made stricter, we're pretty generous with allowing aggressive and illegal driving incidents and lots of second chances. Then again, if we don't, would there just be an epidemic of drivers without licences?

Eastern European lorry drivers - a total liability. They do what they want when they want to do it regardless of anyone else. Someone we know recently lost their life in a horrendous accident on the M1 in July caused by a Polish truck drver.

I'm inclined to agree more with the idea of punishing offenders than the idea of punishing or restrictçng all persons belonging to a certain group of road users, the majority of whom don't merit punishment or restriction..

I can't quite take on the inverted commas of everyone "needs" to drive. I don't know if you meant that some people drive when they don't actually need to. In some cases this is probably correct but I think we have to remember that the society we have created does, in fact, require people to be mobile and to travel much longer distances than formerly. And not just people, but goods as well - and someone has to drive the vans and lorries that provide us with what we need to buy.

Years ago most people lived close to their work or school and their extended families. They had fewer needs - take for example computers - if you don't have to use one you don't have to call out the technician in his car, or, as we do , drive fiflty kilometres for the nearest large computer retailer. Modern life demands
freedom of movement - and that well over and above what public transport can possibly supply.

I'm not against increasing public transport, making cars both cleaner and safer, providing facilities for cyclists and so on - quite the reverse - but I think we need to see that when our our law makers consider how best to achieve maximum safety on the road they bear in mind the constraints that modern society imposes on its population.

A lot of work on attitudes to road using is what is really needed - as other posters have pointed out.

you've done it again, Aquarelle !

As you mention the legislators - they tend to see a problem and try blanket coverage to resolve it. e.g. young driver causes accident, ban young drivers! Left handed old driver... ban LHOD...
Legislators are very keen on banning things too.

but that's a bit of a side issue from driving.

We do seem to be "d'accord" on this driving thing!!

yes we do!
basically there is only one thing that really really matters with driving, and that is being safe!

slightly simplified, but a good premise to base driving on, I think.