I know from having had an assessment lesson with an ISM member teacher (free, nice lady!) that my fingering is completely wrong and she wanted me to go right back to what she called "baby books" and gave me the Denes Agay Joy of First Year Piano as a suggestion and lent me her copy, got a Library one now. She said it was the best way to correct my poor reading and lack of technique after not playing for over 25 years bar a few busking and jam sessions at home on a 55 note Yamaha PSR keyboard.

I am somewhat put off about having to concentrate on fingering but I know she is right. I am not taking lessons at the moment and she understands I have to think about it. The thing is if I decide at the age of 66 to buy a piano I am not likely to do Grades or play in public but I do have this longing to redeem the pieces I once loved and memorized. I never took Grades but some of my pieces were at about Grade V standard but not necessarily my playing of them when I stopped playing but my teacher even then criticised my fingering. I was about 36 and had to drop out of the Class Music Specialist course at a College of Education for family reasons. I was an adult beginner at about 34 years of age and self taught until, I went to College a year later. As a child I had singing lessons but only messed about with the piano in our classroom at school.

All I really want to do is play the piano again and I don't want to spend years on boring stuff. Right or wrong fingering and dodgy reading or not I was playing pieces like WTC Book 1 in C Major Prelude only, Adagio from Moonlight Sonata and some easy Chopin and I memorised these pieces and I was also studying things way above myself and getting frustrated such as Beethhoven Waldstein(but I could manage the Andante), the Adagio from the Emperor Concerto and I could play some of the other Beethoven adagios from sight but hesitantly and I even tried Rachmanioff Preludes, all way above me but I did learn some of it nevertherless. I also taught myself to play my own accompaniments to some easy Schubert songs like An Die Musik and Standchen. However my teacher at College did not put me on Denes Agay books, she put me on Burgmuller and Bach and allowed me to study my beloved Moonlight Sonata first movement and she never made me share middle C with both thumbs. I am confused. Is there more than one method of teaching piano?

Shall I have lessons or just do my own thing? I was quite good at improvisation but again I know my technique was not right. I suppose I want to walk before I can run but I want to play and I want to play now.

Angie

It really depends on what you want.
Are you happy just to carry on as you did before learning to play things in your own way or are you prepared to do what seems to be going back for a while to develope a good technique that could in the end make your playing of your old favourites even better?

I've so far taught 3 students who were previously self taught, 2 young teens and a 10 year old.
Only one of the teens has kept up lessons and his reading and general technique are catching up well.
The other two discovered that they were satisfied just doing their own thing.
I never asked them to stop playing what they were already and was willing to listen without trying to correct things when they'd learned things their own way.
The difference with the one who stuck with it is that when he does his own stuff he now does it with much more practical fingering.

Bad fingering habits are likely to catch you out at some point even if so far you have managed to produce the right effect in your playing.

It is very difficult to change fingerings on old pieces that you learned and memorised, i have done this on occasion but found myself reverting to the old ones, as changing them affects the whole memory process. Thesedays I write out fingerings on nearly every piece i want to learn, and take more time thinking about it because know by now that once you learn a piece that way, it's very hard to change, so you might as well take your time and get it right. the general rule is economy, you got to make it as easy as possible and minimise fuss, i spend hours working it out, but in some ways it's half the learning of a piece. Like you, i returned to the piano myself, after many years, unfortunately my knowledge of scales, arps and other technical exercises is virtually zero, but i don't plan on taking them up ...am only interested in learning repertoire and improving my sight reading...not sure if many teachers would go along with that. For some people a teacher is very beneficial or even essential, but for stubborn folk like myself who want to 'do it my way' i'm content to get along by myself. I do think her advice on going back to some basic stuff, could help quite a lot, it does'nt mean you still can't get on with your favourite pieces.

It's true that it's really hard to change fingering in well cemented pieces, even if you know with the benefit of hindsight that there are 'better' options. It's easier to develop 'good' habits with entirely new pieces. But there really isn't such a thing as right or wrong if it works - though consistency is important.

Thank you for the replies. I have really thought about this.

The teacher wanted me to give up my pieces completely because it would corrupt any attempt to correct my bad habits. She said I was busking in a way that made me feel ashamed. I really am confused and it's affecting my attitude and confidence. I don't want to buy a piano I cannot really afford and then not be able to enjoy it. My attitude when I had a piano before was to pick up a piece of music and say I fancy a go at that or maybe after listening to a favourite sonata or piece have a go at it. But I did get frustrated where it required technique I could not handle such as crossed hands in the Rondo of the Waldstein Sonata.

I want to play the piano purely for my own selfish enjoyment. I guess I will go on teaching myself and as regards unlearning fingerings, with memorising I find it's more a matter of my fingers know where to go but as soon as I start thinking about it or looking at the music I forget and that happened when I tried to play for her, I was so nervous I forgot what I had memorized.

One strange thing, she was not interested in giving me scales and arpeggios which I don't actually mind and my teacher at the College of Education gave them to me.

I have just suddenly realised why coming back to music has been causing me stress, it's the discipline part both regarding piano and viola, I have never taken kindly to discipline and my Mother once told me that was the real reason I was denied lessons because they thought I would not stick at it.

I will do my own thing and enjoy it or find a teacher who will help me improve my pieces without going back to baby books.

I am self taught in many things and generally do better that way.

Angie

It sounds like the answer might lie simply in finding the right teacher. If you're keen, I would use a teacher rather than teach yourself, but it might be worth taking the time to find the right one.

I try to use the written fingering, but sometimes, I make some up whin I can't be bothered, or when the piece is too streatchy for my hands.

I think it should be remembered that the written fingering is only one person's interpretation, and that another's might be equally valid. The important thing is that your fingering works - as in, does it produce the crisp clarity that you're looking for, as well as being 'safe' (can you produce the goods with it every time?), or does it produce, for example the smooth, organ-type legato in every part, if that's what you're trying to achieve? With something fairly complex it can take a while to establish the most sensible fingering for the individual, but once established it should be consistent. Some editions are better than others with regard to the suggested fingering, too!

This teacher is the only one near enough who takes Adult Learners and she is a seven mile drive each way and near my limit due to health problems. There are no piano teachers in Stevenage at all that I know of. Can you see why I get despondent?

Looks like I will have to teach myself bad habits and all

Can't you even find someone who'd give you a lesson, say, once a month - travelling a bit further wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't a weekly thing. You could work it in with other things and treat it as a day out.

No way. Even after seven miles I am in agony due to neck problems and I also suffer from agoraphobia and get panic attacks if I go too far or on strange roads and need to know the route and I cannot use motorways, last time I had to be rescued by a Police patrol. I would arrive, if I arrived at all, unfit for a lesson.

I am determinted to play so I will buy that piano and do the best I can. Do you think that teacher would be offended if I told her I wanted to be taught without baby books and want to study my choice of pieces? She is well known and respected, ALCM and ISM.

If you go to the Music Teachers site: http://www.musicteachers.co.uk/search
I typed 'piano' in the instrument box, and click the button for teachers. I got it to look in Hertfordshire.
There were 3 piano teachers in SG1 and 2 in SG2. There were other SG postcodes there but I think further out of Stevenage. (There are 86 results in total - you need to go on to the 'next' pages to see them all.)

There's a lady with her own website: http://www.piano-keyboard-tuition.co.uk/ who teaches in the Stevenage area - you can go to her house, or she can come to your house!

Finally, there are two listed here from UK-piano.org

Some of these might have the same people listed, I wasn't looking all that closely - but I hope that you can find someone suitable near you if that's what you decide to look for

(I did a Google on 'piano teacher stevenage' - lots of results but I didn't have time to go through them all for you, these just looked like the best of the bunch - now, I must go and sort out my car insurance before my lunch break ends!!)

You might be lucky and find a teacher who will come to you.

Thanks for the information on piano teachers Maizie. I thought everyone was ISM and did not think to look further.

Noodle I realise the piano teacher wants the best for me but I lack the discipline. I am 66 and getting over losing my husband and I just want to play to try and forget.

Judith I would much prefer not to have anyone here teaching me as it would upset my cat and my neighbours and anyway I haven't got a piano yet, not until I am sure it's going to be worth it . Now I know there are local teachers problem solved.

Thanks everyone.

Angie

I have just looked at the Music Teachers UK website and there are a few within easy reach and one whose postcode suggests he is within walking distance. I will phone some of them later. Shall I ask for a one off assessment lesson with each one within reach and then see which ones I get on with? Do I say I am visiting various teachers or keep that to myself? Personalities are important to me and I must click with a person, this is more important than their qualifications. I will know when I meet the right teacher.

I think most of the teachers who are on these boards are happy to give one-off lessons, and I would think they are fair representations of teachers all over The personality relationship is just as important to them, especially with an adult pupil! You can say you are thinking of returning and want to see what they can offer you - no decent teacher is going to expect you to sign up for a term of lessons without having met them.
Another thing a lot of the teachers do is not do any teaching in that first consultation lesson - it is just a chat to find out what your aims are (if you know them), to make sure that the teacher can help you work towards those aims, to find out where you are now/what your previous experience is.
You probably don't need to tell them you are auditioning all the local teachers - they will probably guess that anyway

I have my first music lesson very soon and I already know to expect there will be no music making, but a get-to-know-you-and-your-music background consultation.

I have to agree with what others have said about it depending what you want from your playing.
I was self-taught for a little while before I started piano lessons about 4 years ago and my fingering was also horrendous!! I had learnt from books and had no concept of technique whatsoever, but for me lessons were brilliant because I wanted to go on to do music as a career, so I needed to be able to get to a grade 8 standard and be confident with my technique rather than playing for enjoyment.
It was a bit strange starting lessons at first - after being used to doing my own thing I found it a bit difficult to go backwards for a while and be told what to do, but after about a year I'd got back to the (pretty low) standard I was at before, only a lot more confident with the technical side of things. For me, lessons were definitely worth it, you will make (or have made) the decision on whether they are right for you or not...I just thought I would add my experience to the thread!
On the expense/noise side of things...I might get attacked for this *hides*...but could you also look at the possibility of buying a keyboard rather than an acoustic piano? I learnt up to about grade 5 standard on a keyboard - they are of course not perfect and very different to play, but it was just a suggestion for your problem...it would be less expensive so you could try out playing the piano again without the huge cost of purchasing an upright. The problem money-wise with this is that I don't think keyboards retain their value as pianos do...you would have to ask someone who knows their stuff, but if you decided to upgrade to a piano you may not get much money back from selling a keyboard which may be something else to think about. Another thing to look at may be any piano rental schemes near you where you could borrow a piano for 6 months to see how you got on with it.
On the subject of assessment lessons, I think it would be a good idea to see if they will just do a one-off lesson to start with, just explain that you are returning to playing and you want to see how you get on. I can't see why you should hide the fact you are visiting various teachers if they ask you, as long as you are polite about it they should understand that you have to find someone you feel comfortable with. ]
Sorry for the long post!
Hoxie
xxx

When I went to see the piano teacher who is about seven miles away she did actually ask me to play so she could assess me. She said I was busking but that she could tell I had musicianship. We then had a chat and I told her I found reading difficult and she said the best way to read was correct fingering, she had noticed that I kept looking at the keys and she asked me to play from The Joy of First Year Piano by Denes Agay and put both thumbs on middle C and leave them there and she put a piece of paper up so I could not look at the keys. It drove me mad. I have now found lots of local teachers to contact thanks to the link given earlier and they are not only nearer but all cheaper too.

I hate keyboards, I have three Yamaha PSRs all with only 55 keys and poor touch and they put me right off as does the wobbly stands despite buying a better one and the lack of proper pedals the add on one is a joke. I want a proper piano but a digital one with a real piano feel and 88 keys but it has to be cheap and I have chosen a Roland HP which I did try at Millers in Cambridge. I have now decided to buy one after I have been up there again to make sure, that will be soon when school is back but before Uni starts. I would prefer an acoustic piano but I have no room and my lounge is party wall with next door's lounge and the only place I can put a piano is by that wall. I must be able to use headphones though I would prefer not to but I have poor hearing.

Angie

If you are quite serious about going forward with your piano playing, irrespective of your age, and learning some of the more challenging piano scores, then I think correct fingering is very important. I remember having to "re-finger" quite a few of the Bach 2 part inventions, epsecially the No. 4 Dm because my teacher at the time said my fingering was a mess, even though I could play the pieces through with no mistakes and what I condidered to be the correct tempi and dynamic indications. However I did "re-finger" according to my teacher's instruction and I discovered how much easier and better it was to play these inventions. I now always use the correct finger technique as once learnt it stays "burned" in your 'brain and finger memory'.



On the other subject of pianos, if you can afford an acoustic, go for it, otherwise I would recommend the Roland Digital Piano HP series. I owned one before moving on to an acoustic piano and they really are very good.

Good Luck!

Thank you Roger, I will consider what you say as I do want to play properly.

Thank you for endorsing the Roland HP2 series. I tried one in Millers Cambridge and I tried a Yamaha at the same price and there was no comparison, the Roland won on tone and touch even if the Yamaha had more things to play with that was not important because if I want to mess about I have three Yamaha PSRs of which two belonged to my late Husband one of which is midi enabled.

I have decided to phone the piano teachers at the weekend when phone calls are free then if any of them want to chat I do not have to worry about my phone bill

Talk to a few teachers and find a couple who seem to understand what you want and arrange a trial lesson would be my advice.

Be aware though that some of the pieces you are talking about are very hard. Grade 5 ish does not really get you near playing Moonlight sonata and Waldstein is quite a bit more difficult again. If you are happy playing little snipets of a few bars in your own way then OK but you are not, I don't think, going to work your way up to playing these pieces without learning proper technique and (dare I say it) having some discipline over a few years.

I think a lot of adult learners and returners try to play things which are two hard. I definitely do it myself. I have been seen hacking away at the Moonlight and Pathetique but cannot really apply any musicallity even in the bits where I can get the notes out (and I did actually scrape a pass at grade 8 before taking a 3 decade break). I changed when I suddenly got pleasure from picking up my daughter's grade 5 book and working the pieces up to a level where I could actually apply shaping of phrases, articulation and dynamics and it suddenly became a musical activity.

This doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go back to a beginners book. Ask the teachers, but it might give you more satisfaction to find an early repertoire book, even one which is perhaps quite challenging for you, and work away at playing these easier pieces properly with good fingering. I think you might find it more rewarding to play some easier pieces well and musically.

Best of Luck anyway

I did say that I played only certain mopvements. Moonlight firtst movement is Grade V and I taught myself to play it very qwuickly and the whole movemenjt was very easy then and I am still able to play the opening bars and gradually the rest is coming back from memory. Waldstein I played the whole of the slow movement and in fact my teacher at College helped me with interpretation and phrasing, very important in this piece. I had a go at the Rondo but it was beyond me. Beethoven Emperor I taught myself to play most of the adagio both solo and tutti but I admit some bits were harder than others. I played Chopin from any easy Chopin book and I played some easy Mozart sonata movements.

Thanks for the suggestion of easy reportiore boopks, that's much better than baby books and I will find a teacher who can help me play these properly.

I'd agree with what Roger said, if you really seriously want to move forward and improve your piano playing itself then some work on fingering, and work on more basic pieces is essential. If, however, you're happy with your playing being at the same level (i.e. being able to play more pieces, but at the same level and to the same standard you currently play them) then you could carry on doing what you're doing. If you want to be able to learn how to learn pieces, which will improve your approach to a new piece, and make learning new pieces easier, and faster, for you (including improving your reading) going back to easier pieces is pretty much the only way. It is also the only way to unlock the more difficult repertoire that simply can't be tackled in this way.

I've been in your situation: I could learn the sorts of pieces (indeed in some cases the exact pieces) that you're learning now, but decided to go right back to the start (through my own choice) to improve my way of learning. This is precisely because how I learnt a piece, how quickly I could learn a piece and the final result of learning it, were important to me.

How about a compromise? Could you, say, concede to learning some easier pieces alongside the harder pieces you want to play? Also when choosing your own pieces, sticking to the grade 5/6 end of the pieces you want to play scale (the 'Moonlight' first movement; rather than the FRSM Waldstien Rondo ) would make it easier for you to concentrate on fingering and musical performance (a teacher could guide you on the difficulty of pieces). Maybe your teacher could write some fingering onto the harder pieces you want to play (and you could make an effort to pay extra attention to any that is already there) then you could work on those on your own, showing your teacher when you've finished to see if they have suggestions. Whilst doing that you could work on easier pieces with your teacher to help with your reading and the learning process, as well as focussing on fingering.

It may be hard to find a teacher that will work with you only on the harder pieces, not because they are malicious, just because they don't feel they can justify taking money from you to teach in this way. They may see it as they're not teaching you the skills you need to learn piano and proper technique so it's inethical for them to take money off you and not teach you properly. I'd ask you the question: if you do want to play pieces in the way you do (and there's nothing wrong with that if this is your goal) would a teacher actually be a benefit to you in learning the piano? If you want to learn proper technique and improve your reading and playing skills then I'd certainly think it would, and you'd have to be willing to do as they suggest; but if you're happy with what you're doing already then just keep going . It's a tough decision!

If you want some easier repertoire, 'Hours with the Masters' is quite a good series: starting at grade 1/2 it's pieces by respected composers so, to me at least, it seemed more 'proper' material right from the start. The other option, although I don't know how you'd feel about this, is some easier arrangements of harder or more well known pieces, these would allow you to play pieces you recognise (although not the full versions) without being too overstretched to think about fingering and technical development.

My teacher does fuss about fingering sometimes, and i don't blame her, but on my own, i dont bother.
If i have to, i just improvise with whatever fingers i have, and i think it's an important skill to learn aswell as correct fingering, just incase your fingering sips during a concert performance or something
Jus something to think about

It depends on what you're playing, as some things are easier to bluff than others if your fingering goes wonky in public! For most Baroque pieces, I think you'll give yourself the best chance of holding things together if you're absolutely consistent with your fingering in practice. If you manage to establish a fingering that's, let's say, unconventional, and a performance or exam is approaching, though, I honestly think there comes a time when it's best left alone, as the whole thing can unravel like a piece of knitting if you try to change it.

Good fingering (rather than "correct fingering" - there can be more than one fingering that works well) is important if you want to achieve a good result. It probably would be good to do some work on easier pieces to begin with, to establish good fingering & technique, but it doesn't need to be "baby" books. Why not try one of the adult tutors such as Carol Barratt's Classic Piano Course?

There are quite a lot of teachers in Stevenage & I hope you find one you're happy with. You might also like to consider Stevenage Music Centre, where you would get a well-trained & qualified teacher from the county music service.

One thing you must remember is that there is a reason behind technique: it is a tool for preparing your fingers for efficient playing in future pieces. Many of your pieces you had learned (Chopin, Beethoven, etc.) derive their melodies from keys, which are derived from scales. Sticking to a fingering in a scale and achieving a smooth rendition of it becomes helpful in a piece that has a similar passage. An editor's suggestion for fingering in a piece is simply there to excecute the most SEAMLESS rendition (most times, aside from physical inabilities/incompatiblities for some of us poor folk - in which we use our own fingering). In my opinion, stick to the fingering with or without a teacher for now and learn a new piece in that fashion...remain consistent with it, and you will get results. Fingering seems like one other detail you need to fuss with, but it certainly will pay off in your ability to perform efficiently and smoothly. Keep with it!

well, I dont think what fingers you use matter,s its what fingering makes it easiest for you, and make it sound the best

Yes..... but sometimes an inexperienced player will THINK that 'their' choice of fingering makes things easier when it doesn't really work for some reason.
There are times when fingering is negotiable and times when it's not.
Even having passed grade 8 there are times when my teacher can suggest fingering that is better than what I've worked out.