I've been pondering recently whether it is human nature to attempt to play pieces which are too hard for us.... It is a commonly held opinion that one will develop one's musical faculties better by learning pieces which are just on the edge of one's capabilities. For instance, if one could play a certain piece other than due to needing to work on one aspect of technique, musical or technical, that's great. The piece will serve as both a musically fulfilling experience and something in which one can encapsulate something to work on and improve one's overall abilities.

And that's great, we all know that, and teachers use it time and time again. However, off the leash, I wonder if it's human nature to be drawn into playing pieces which are too far beyond one's grasp, either for the kudos of playing a hard piece or through a fondness for the piece itself. In exchange for the hard graft of learning such a difficult piece by our standards, we are rewarded with the ability to give a sub-par rendition of the piece. One extreme example of this is a Youtube recording of someone who has been learning some of Beethoven's most tricky works for 20 years. In that time, they could have progressed through a series of increasingly difficult pieces, each developing skills they could use on harder pieces; and then thought about tackling the harder pieces they longed to play. However, what they present instead are recordings full of basic mistakes - tempo fluctuations, gross inaccuracies, banging out the right when the left should have centre stage etc. If they'd worked their way up, they would have been able to give a much better rendition - not necessarily Alfred Brendel, but a lot better to show for 20 years' work.

Maybe, in aspiring for greatness, we are blinded to our own limitations. Between grades 7 and 8, I wanted to learn Liszt's second Hungarian Rhapsody. Anyone who has heard the piece can confirm I was jumping the gun a little there.... I presented the work I had done on it to my teacher, out of the blue, and we worked on it for one lesson. Then, she said I could work on it in my own time but we were doing other pieces in lessons. I was a little bemused at the time but went along with it; with hindsight, the decision was definitely the right one to make. Had we used that piece as material through which to learn the piano, I would have been too caught up in trying to get the notes to be able to make a good job of it or take anything useful away from the experience.

There's no harm in learning the odd 'too hard' piece, and if it maintains a pupil's interest in the instrument it can do more good than harm. The trouble happens when all of one's pieces are too hard - little progress is made, as little scope for technical development is experienced. One might even be able to learn three 'too hard' pieces and fumble through an ABRSM exam; but all it would prove is that one can do a sub-par rendition of three pieces with just 12/18/24 months' notice. Long term, the time could have been much better spent. Rather than go back to basics upon it being suggested, I've known people to look for another teacher - one who will take their money and and ask fewer questions, I presume. It reminds me of the tale of a distant relative of mine - their doctor told them to lose weight, and they were terribly upset as that meant they had to 'find a new doctor'....

I don't do that.
My tendency when making my own choices is to learn things that are below my level.
Things of grade 8 level and above look far too tricky to me so when choosing things purely for my own amusement I go for things I feel I can reasonably manage.
When I hear difficult things played that I like I tend to take what seems to me a more realistic view (or maybe I'm just lazy or a wimp) and think 'that's really nice but beyond me'.

Lots of wise words there Yap. I have very mixed feelings about students working on three pieces for twelve months or more just to pass an grade exam, and I see it happening more and more. By all means stretch oneself a little but never lose sight of the fact that the point of learning is to be able to play and perform, even if only to oneself or one's nearest and dearest. Play things at your level or just a little above it. Work at your technique and sight read as much as possible. Develop your skills across the board and become an allround musician. Please don't spend ages learing pieces by rote.

I've done that! Trying to play Baroque flute from 50 for flute, (it's on the Grade 5 Flute 2008-2013 syllabus)
When I couldn't get Latin flute. (from the same book, was on the grade 3 syllabus) right!

Yes, but I think that YAP's point is playing those pieces that are WAY above ones standard... e.g. Me attempting Clair de lune last year when I hadn't even done grade 5

Yes, I agree. However, the focus of my post was that by if one aims to play pieces too far beyond one's own standard, progress will be slower and the end result not as satisfactory as if one worked through progressively more difficult pieces set at appropriate distances beyond one's abilities.

Sarah: Precisely .

In your opinion, beyond what length of time taken to learn a piece to a reasonable level would make it "too hard"?

When I returned to piano playing at 60 it was with a definite goal - Bach's WTC - all 48!! Now that is ambitious for someone who hasn't played for 40 years. But - I have said to my teacher that I don't want to start until I am ready to try, knowing that I have to do a lot just to get my fingers moving better, never mind the finer points of technique. I am already playing pieces (about grade 6 level) that were beyond me 18 months ago and while I do realise I still have a very long way to go, have been really pleased with my progress. With teacher's guidance, I hope to keep moving up bit by bit. I am also 'doing quite a lot' ie learnt (and unfortunately also forgot quite quickly) 17 different pieces in the first year.

I tend to do this as well.

There are some pieces that I would love to be able to play but because I like them so much I can't bear the thought of hacking my way through them and not being able to play them the way I like to hear them (if that makes sense).

So what's too difficult for you just now then? And I think I can guess who you're referring to on Youtube!!

The Goldberg Variations . I do tinker with them from time to time, but don't indulge too much - and certainly not in front of other people .



Yes, our favourite Youtube pianist . I had another listen to his/her playing earlier today .

Ohhhhhh, I think I know who you mean. Isn't s/he great!

Guilty as charged. When I am teaching, I spend enormous time and consideration planning what pieces are most appropriate ie. they will like, are suitable, will work on certain weaknessnes, let them play to their strengths. Choosing pieces at my own level, I can overstretch myself, and basically go nowhere. I had a particular habit of this on piano at one time, attempting to play loads of Beethoven sonatas, Chopin polonaises, Bach P+Fs etc. being realistically grade 5 or a shakey grade 6. Only now do I feel I can even attempt said pieces.

To an extent it cna depend what your own strengths are and in what way a piece is "too difficult". For example, if you weakness was playing certain notes, or in a certain key, or legato, stacatto etc., but not playing fast, with dynamics. A piece may be classed several levels higher than you are at, but that doesn't always mean it is out of reach. If it is technically beyond your limits though, it gets counter productive, and it's best to step back and work up to it.



Yes of course, but that's not the point. Playing piece that are TOO difficult at a time does nothing for technique. We don't give a grade 1 pupils a grade 4 or 5 piece, do we? So why should a grade 7,8 musician attempt an FRSM piece and get nothing from it?

I'm definitely guilty of attempting things that are too difficult - too difficult in that I'll never make them good enough to play for others. I'd be interested to hear, though, what others consider 'too long' to spend perfecting one piece. My problem is that once I get my teeth into something I find it very hard to let go - and admit defeat! I wasted a ridiculous amout of time on Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu before deciding to pack it in, and would probably still be at it if it wasn't for the fact that I needed something to play for a concert and had to cut my losses in favour of something else.

I wonder was it really time wasted, though? Certainly, I enjoyed the process, which has to be important, and I did make a reasonable job of some sections, which is bound to be good practice for other pieces with similar requirements. And if I ever resurrect it I'll be starting from a new starting block!

I love the Goldberg Variations, by the way - never attempted to play them yet, though!

I'm a beginner and I'm always trying things that are too hard. Most things I would love to play are too hard!
I don't persist learning them note by note but they do give me information about what I need to learn - like OK this would be easier if I learned the b flat major scale or exercising the fingers on difficult combinations of notes.

I do relax by playing easy slow pieces and working through my studies and scales but too hard pieces are great fun to try

This might not be entirely a grade thing - possibly more a matter of personal taste. I think it can be easier to play a piece that is in a style you particularly like than one which, although technically less demanding, is in a style that you don't 'click' with. I'm learning a piece from the grade 7 syllabus at the moment and am picking it up quite easily because I like it a lot and it's exactly the type of piece that I tend to play quite well. There are things on the grade 6 syllabus that, for me, are a fair bit harder. And there are pieces set at much lower grades that I would struggle to get right, just because they're not 'my kind of piece' as it were.

Also there are some pieces set at various grades for various instruments which, according to general concensus, are particularly easy/difficult for the grade in question (I've heard people say as much as 2-3 grades out in one or two instances).




I'd be interested to see what people think is a reasonable time to learn a piece of the 'correct' level too. With piano, I find it very difficult to tell the grade levels of non-exam pieces, so having an approximate way to gauge it by 'time to learn' would be handy.


My worst "running before I could walk" example is probably Faure's Sicilienne, which I started butchering less than 24 hours after first picking up my flute and attempting to get something resembling a note out of it.

On the whole, I think keyboard instruments lend themselves to this more than many others. With flute, I couldn't get past the first page of the Faure at that point as the second page needed some notes that I couldn't play at all. But with piano, all the notes are sitting there ready. All you have to do is learn which ones to play. Singing would be another vulnerable one - as long as you pick something within your note range and can stay in tune, there's nothing to stop you learning a grade 8 song even if you're at a much lower grade.

T.

I do like trying out music which is way too hard, not often, and usually not trying to learn to concert performance level - just because I've had the experience before of doing this, getting what I can out of the piece at that stage, and then the joy of coming back to it later, better armed and able to bring new skills to it. The example which comes to mind is the piece with which my teacher taught me double tonguing - Dario Castello's sonata secunda. This is a stunningly passionate piece from the very early baroque, and I loved it from the time I first had a go at playing it - at that stage I had not yet attempted grade 7, and it is listed for LRSM. I got myself round most of the notes after a huge effort, and then moved on to other music, and every six months or so would pull it out again and have another spell of playing it. Each time I have done so, I've been able to play sections of it more convincingly; now I am learning the sonata prima from the same book towards an attempt at LTCL, and the "quick run-through" playing it with my husband this afternoon extended to the sonata secunda too. The two sonatas are technically pretty evenly matched - the work on one was reflected in what I can now do with the other, making the re-discovery very rewarding indeed.
I wouldn't want to do this all the time - and I'm also careful not to have too many pieces on the boil at once - I don't count the pulling out of pieces for a fun busk through here, just the ones on which I'm working seriously.

I often attempt pieces that are too hard for me, but I think that's because at grade 2 level there's very little that's interesting or recognisable. I want to be able to play something that others will recognise and enjoy playing a known song.

I am always doing this, which could explain why I struggle to settle down and learn something properly... I have got some pretty decent sight reading skills out of it though!

Sounds like me! When I first started out, both my piano and violin teachers felt I'd lose interest playing the 'easier' pieces and therefore pushed me to play pieces that I wanted to play - some way beyond my level of playing. Sure, it was a struggle at first but as I love a challenge, I worked at them. As I naturally memorise, to my surprise I found myself playing grade 4/5/6 pieces at a piano playing level at the time around grade 2!

Someone posted earlier re sight-reading. I can't stop myself from memorising pieces and, especially with exam pieces, as I will be playing them repetitively, the memorisation just happens and I stop using the score. I would love to be able to sight-read well and am trying to improve, but find I have to keep changing pieces regularly in order to do so. Another person posted on how long to work on pieces. Don't know the answer but I had the grade 5 exam pieces 'sprung' on me 3 months before the exam.....

I don't play pieces way beyond my level at the moment - it takes up too much time!!!

I am always trying pieces above my level, but then I havent done exams since 1964, nor have I played in public. Goldberg variations is one of them. However sometimes I have a go at harder stuff, and find them not too bad. Waldstein Sonata is something I can play tolerably well, though I wouldnt want to play it in public. ! I have a few more targets 'above my station' eg the two Brahms Rhapsodies, Chopin 1st Ballade, I keep having a 'litlle go' at them for a few days, then drop them again rather than persist. But it doesnt really matter when you just play for the fun.

Absolutely! I think people can get attracted to pieces and want to have a go at it regardless of the level.
It's easy to get disheartened as a beginner, when you realise how far you have to go - playing something recognisable can be a big help in feeling like you've achieved something. But it's tempting to go too far.

I would say I'm a grade 3 standard at the moment. I can prepare a G3-level piece but it's certainly not there the first time I play it I was delighted when the new recorder lists came out, as at the moment I'm listening to Handel's recorder sonatas to death, and my favouritest movement from my favouritest sonata was on the G5 syllabus. I own the sheet music to these sonatas (they do start appearing from G4), so naturally I've had a bash at the movement I love so much. Naturally I'm terrible at it
The thing is, initially I was really disappointed that I was so poor at it - after all, I'm G3 and it's 'only' G5. It wasn't until I thought about it logically that I could point out to myself that two grades could be considered an average two years. So no wonder it's a bit tricky! I doubt it will just sit on my shelf for two years until I feel ready, but it's good to realise when you try something that's too hard that it is something too hard - that it's not you being rubbish.

I think pieces that are hard are great, because the joy when they finally click, the improvement, the subsequent discovery that horrendously fiendish pieces from two years ago are now great fun - that's progression, that's what we are presumably all trying to achieve. But, yes, taking it just a little bit too far and trying something REALLY hard is a frequent risk.

I think it's likely that teachers are there to reign us in as much as help us move on

I agree with DCMBarton. As with most things in life it's tempting to take the 'safe and easy route' but in the long run you don't improve. I always play stuff much more difficult than my grade 8 would suggest I play. My playing has improved tremendously over the years. Of course you get frustrated along the way but when you get even a few bars of difficult music correct, you feel fantastic. If like, me you're not a performer or taking any more exams, what's the problem. Don't be a "Wuss"

I used to do it a lot, but I try not to do it anymore. It seems to me that the pieces I learned when I wasn't ready yes always keep "missing" something. I mean when the time has come that I am ready for the piece I still can't get as much out of it as the pieces I learned at a time when I was ready for them. (I hope this makes any sense). It is still tempting though

Their?? I think you mean 'there'

I'll go and edit that. Not the sort of mistake I make that often, honest I blame the fact that I'm at work and therefore only half-concentrating on posting

Don't you mean 'woose'?

Chopins etudes and and many of the preludes are too difficult for me, but i look at conquering some of them in the long haul. am steadily getting somewhere with them. I'm working on 5 etudes and about 12 of the preludes. And quite a few other pieces i'm doing are probably beyond me, but once again in time i hope to master them, and some of them are definitely taking shape, patience and commitment are the key. If you are determined, it's worth putting the time in.

Hmmm... I have little or no desire to play things that are too difficult for me. I think that might be because there are so many things I could just pick up and play fairly well, that I don't have much motivation to actually learn something. Plus, I am lazy...

Everything is either possible or impossible. The purpose of practice is to take the impossible and make it possible. If I didn't tackle stuff that was too hard I would never improve, but then I'm not the first to say that and it wasn't the point: Yes I do tackle stuff that is way beyond me: not often though, it's too dispiriting.

My natural inclination is to play pieces that are just below my level of playing...then I started oboe lessons again! My teacher said to me that we could have a fine time playing dinky little pieces of music, and then got out my book of Ferling studies...which I thought were way beyond me.
I have learned far more by being stretched by Mr Ferling's studies, and my playing has really benefited even though there have been times when I thought I just could not play them. I suppose that it is the point of playing studies.

In the meantime, my teacher has asked me to get a copy of Difficult passages from the works of JS Bach, and has promised me that he will slow down the Ferling...

Sounds just like me and my oboe teacher.

Just before the holidays he told me to bring in all the music I had so he could see if I had anything suitable to work on over the summer. I have bought loads of music from ebay very cheaply and didn't want to bring it all in so I bought in a pile of things that I thought were about my level. He looked through it all and said there was nothing for me to get my teeth into and so he'd give me what he'd planned all along which was Bach's G minor concerto. At which point I had to confess that I already had it but had left it at home as I thought it was too difficult for me .

Ermmmm..... further to my previous post (after first piano lesson today for weeks) - am going to start Toccata and Fugue in D minor. Should be 'interesting'.....

I'm ok with difficult things set by my teacher. I just don't tend to go for things which look too difficult on my own.
Anyway, if my teacher is setting things that are meant to stretch me then I don't have the time and/or concentration to work on things beyond my level on my own as well.

I do think we need to push the boat out every once in a while. Otherwise we'll never know how far it will float.

Or how quickly it will sink?

I've sunk a few times, but it does improve your swimming ability!

*splashes towards shore, hoping not to flounder until she hits the shallows*

Actually, even playing pieces at or below one's standard can, IMO, help you improve. I have learned a lot from playing easier pieces really well as well as from playing more difficult and too difficult stuff. What someone will learn from playing a grade 4 or 5 piece really beautifully is different from what they will learn struggling through a grade 8 or diploma level piece or part of such a piece, but it doesn't mean they won't learn. Playing at or around one's level can teach one a vast amount, and even playing below it is not a null experience if one is prepared to learn.


Surely that depends so much on the person and the instrument? I would take a lot longer to learn a piano piece than a flute piece just because I find piano so much more difficult.


Yes, my sight-reading has improved beyond recognition the last few years and I'm sure it's at least partly to do with just playing loads of music and trying pretty much anything I can get my hands on!!


Probably means you're a good grade 5 standard then it'd take me a lot longer than that I think


I tend to assume things are too difficult if I can't sight-read them when I'm playing on my own. Which is illogical and dense I know

Sometimes I just have to go "OK, I really want to be able to play this piece" and go back to basics rather than trying to play through something as sight-reading when it's probably not within easy reach even of my playing!!




I do agree, though, as I said, I don't think that it's at all impossible to learn things from playing below one's abilities as well as above it. I tend to try and have pieces on both "sides" of my ability going on. On flute for example, the easier pieces will give me more scope for expression, playing with a beautiful tone, really getting into the nitty gritty and working out exactly how I want to play something, whereas the more difficult pieces will be good practice for getting my fingers moving, playing high, reading music fast, etc etc.

I tend to do this fairly regularly - I think it is always a bit more interesting to learn something as challenging as possible. But I don't concentrate all my time onto the pieces, I just play the odd phrases of those pieces that I find the most difficult, and gradually make progress, whilst playing other pieces. Though it is true that your sight-reading can improve dramatically along with certain skills, such as the fluency of octave scales.

Another reason I do this, is because I have 'done' Grade 8, but don't really want to move onto Diploma: I'd rather explore through lots of different pieces than have to go on to specialising in certain pieces again - at least for a while, anyway. The pieces available are obviously those of Grade 8 standard and higher - the lower grade pieces are fine, but unless I want to learn them for performing, there is no reason for me to go back to them unless they are pieces that I actually like. However, in reference to Sarah's comment about learning expression from lower graded pieces, I tend to play modern pieces for piano, as these provide ample opportunity to do so, but are not really 'graded' pieces...

My brother doesn't play the piano, and doesn't want lessons, as he prefers the guitar - however, he has managed to memories the first few pages of Moonlight Sonata, 3rd Movement! But even if he hasn't gradually progressed towards it, I see no problem with it, as otherwise he wouldn't play it at all anyway.

I can't see too much of a problem with it, providing you don't deceive yourself into thinking that you are ready to perform the piece, apparently like the aforementioned pianist.

~Wobby~

...just a further thought...

I think that whether one learns something from a piece has more to do with how one approaches it than with how easy or difficult it is.

One person will learn more even from randomly selected pieces than another will learn from even the most carefully graded series.

Someone who approaches a difficult piece with the viewpoint "I want to impress a bunch of not-very-musical people" may often only learn how to scramble through that piece (like the aforementioned pianist!) whereas someone who approaches it intending to learn bits of it properly/see what the technical challenges are might really get something out of it.

Someone who approaches an easy piece with the viewpoint, "this is too easy, I can't be bothered" may just sight-read through it a couple of times, know the notes, and feel it's "learned". Someone who decides that here is an opportunity to play a piece really beautifully will use the fact that it's "too easy" to concentrate on playing it really beautifully.

As has been pointed out before, "Fur Elise" is considered a reasonably easy piano piece, but if I can play it quite well, and Ashkenazy can make it sound absolutely ravishing, clearly I can still learn something from it

(OK, so I can't actually play it very well at all but you see my point I hope for flute maybe one could substitute Faure's Sicilienne or the Bach Eb slow movement, and I'm sure there must be other such "easy" pieces played to another level of mastery by the pros!)

do that all the time.... but i'm determine to get through them...practice makes perfect..

Do people think this can sometimes actually be detrimental for playing?

To use an example, when I was 12-ish, I decided I wanted to have a go at Dvorak's cello concerto. I bashed through it, got some bits sounding good, some recognisable, some (cough) 'orrible, and left it when it became clear to me that I wasn't quite at the right standard... However, I have now got to the stage where Dvorak is quite plausible (though I'm still holding off). When I brought it out a few months back and played bits of it, I found to my dismay that I seemed to have retained some of the bad habits that I had been using when I was 12, bad fingerings, bad bowings, etc. Luckily these particular bad habits were easy to get rid of, but I can see other situations where it might have been harder.

As for my own particular run-before-walk worst scenario, that has to be when I studied the Haydn D concerto (notoriously one of the most difficult cello concertos) for quite a while and even brought it to my lesson, when I was 12-ish. Oh, and the Arpeggione when I was 10....

I believe teachers have to be careful when assigning new pieces to a pupil - the match has to be careful - too difficult, and the pupil can struggle for ages with it, become de-motivated and actually on occasion, progress starts to flag generally. It's obviously a different scenario when a pupil tries something for him/herself because they happen to really like the music, and I know when I was younger I used to mess around with much trickier pieces from my dad's books just because I liked them as well as the pieces my teacher was asking me to practise.....it was a sort of treat - I would make sure I'd practised my set pieces, and then as an extra "let-my-hair-down, relax-and-enjoy" session, I would play other pieces for fun and improvise.........

A good point to remember and something I always bear in mind is:

'Don't practise in public'!!

Don't perform something that isn't well under your control!

Me too! (Who was it who said, "I didn't get where I am today..." Was it the boss in 'The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin', or am I completely wrong? )

I think if we look at what we learn form practising things which are below or above the standard at which we consider ourselves to be 'at', we will find that there are different gains at each end of the spectrum. I remember being very interested in the approach of a teacher/performer who used to use these forums a lot, whom I'm sure many will know. Heigh-ho. He said that many people would be astounded at the point at which he allows a pupil to move on from a piece, but he does so because he was only getting them to play it anyway in order to work at a particular technical point. Once that has been 'taught/learnt' he moves on to something else, without aiming to perfect the piece to performance standard, and regardless of how poor other aspects of that piece are. This, in effect, is how we all benefit from tackling pieces which we will never be able to perfect - or, at least, not yet.

At the other end of the scale, we will be much more able - as I think Sarah said - to work at subtleties of expression in pieces where we are able to learn the notes quickly and easily.

Yes, sometimes!


Yes, exactly, though far better expressed than I managed!!!

I've done it too (try to learn a piece too hard for my level) BUT, I have only done it to learn a few bars, usually the easier ones, once I learn the 3/4 bars I'm happy and I return to pieces at my level or slightly higher for a long time. In 9 months I've only tried to learn a few bars of difficult pieces twice. I agree with most of you, it would not be useful to do this on a regular basis, but occasionally, just so that you can 'explore' it can be a 'healthy thing'.
Jo

I've only just looked in on this thread -- but you are completely right about the quote. It was "CJ" in 'The Fall & Rise...'
"I didn't get where I am today by practising pieces that are too difficult for me! Neither Mrs CJ nor I have ever practised pieces that were too difficult."
"Great"
"Sooper"



and the whole thread is interesting. From what I have read it seems important to play 'comfort' pieces (which one can always try to make better) and demanding pieces to push yourself along.
Was it Sarah who said we learn different things from different pieces? Perhaps it's important to know what we want from each piece we play.