No need to respond to this folks, just letting off some steam.

Does anyone have one person who tries to take advantage of your good nature as a teacher.... over and over and over again!!! despite your making your unavailability clear?

I consider myself a helpful person and live in a district with several capable music teachers. We all belong to the same church. Will they do ANYTHING to help in this regard? No. And never have. I have been run ragged - my own fault I stress, in the past, with the aim of trying to assist when asked with church services, many and varied. If I hadn't helped out, there would have been no music. Simple. This was really taken advantage of until I gradually admitted to myself that this was what was actually going on. Now... (takes breath!) the same character - having been told that I am on my last week of holidays has 'just called to catch up on holiday news' and left with a bit of a flea in their ear. Agenda? Six services before the end of September, three of which were for 500 plus kids! It kills me. You try to oblige but.....! So, I politely declined. Amen.

Courage PB - the best thing you could do is to decline - I served as chair of the community council since 1991 to this year - no-one would agree to take over until I made it clear that I would not carry on. Up pops someone to do it and (I am glad to say) is demonstrating a new view of the job and doing things I would never have done. Sometimes it takes a firm stand to get others going and often they then find they can rise to the occasion but would have never thought of offering to do.
I hope you have done yourself good - and perhaps someone else.

Oh dear! As a church steward myself I can really see this from both sides. Unfortunately, non-musical people have scant appreciation of the amount of work that goes into anything musical, and I'm fairly sure that the person who suggested you might do so much has no idea of what they were asking. It's not always a very nice job asking people to take on church work, but someone has to do it if anything is ever to be organised!

You may feel that you have explained how busy you are, but maybe it would be more helpful to state exactly what you are prepared to do - I assume you would like to do a little, as you are a church member, but quite understand that no-one likes to be taken for granted. I do sympathise with you, as one can quickly feel inundated with all sorts of work at this time of the year.

If (once you calm down!) you could have a think about what you are willing to do in September, even if it's nothing at all, and explain it in words of one syllable, I'm sure it would be very helpful to the person concerned. If you've always been very willing in the past, you do tend to keep getting asked - in fact, sometimes folk get the idea that you might be offended if someone else were approached first! - and maybe if you fully explain the position it will encourage the steward to ask some of the other musical people in the church to take on services you can't do.

Don't let this remain as a barrier between you and your fellow-Christian, who is probably wishing s/he hadn't been to see you right now. I'm sure with goodwill on both sides you can sort this one out with no hurt feelings. Good luck!

Hi guys. Thanks. I hear what you are saying.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't rude to the person concerned (who isn't a steward - she works for the diocese). Far from it. But I have been dealing with her for a long time. She does not know the meaning of the word 'no'. This last visit of hers for example, was preceeded by two texts to me and a phone voicemail, asking if she could call for a chat. On all occasions I told her that I would not be free and had family visiting. We have had a rough few weeks at home, nearly losing my sister and her new baby, though I did not feel it necessary to explain my private life. On the one occasion that my other half had taken my young son and his two visiting cousins out for a few hours to let me get on top on things domestic, who arrived at my door? You know the rest. Yes I could have turned her away with a lie, but I'm not like that. She pushed a colleague so far last year that he ended up ranting at her in a public foyer - and he is a stereotypical meek and mild man!
He as head of the religion department had had enough of her meddling also. So, yes I do feel upset but it's unfair in my opinion. The situation was not of my own making. I have been very clear over the past couple of years with her, very clear. She simply continues to push - regardless of what I have said in the past.
Also she is fully aware of two other characters, both heads of music in their respective grammar schools, who contribute zero to the parish.

I shall be continuing with my origional commitment of weekly rehearsals, masses, confirmations, funerals etc., but I feel the line which I have already drawn needs to be respected.
Amen. Alleluia!

This brought to mind two situations I've been in. One with a bunch of people who wouldn't take their share of resonsibility and the other with someone who wouldn't take no for an answer. The two situations were not connected.

The thing I learnt form both is that once the pattern has been set it's very difficult to change it and you always end up in the wrong no matter how right you are. It'll take you all your strength to stand up to them. The first circumstance I eventually walked away from, the second I've had a measure of success with but only after the person made some space that I took advantage of.

I wish you the best of luck, I can't offer any advice, just look for the gaps and go for them.

I had somebody who always seemed to ring me after 9.30 in the evening - when I was tired and my guard was down. Gradually I realised it always seemed to be the same scenario - she had been let down by others regarding an event (usually one that was happening within the next day or so) and was desperate for me to help. I found it very difficult to refuse. Eventually I was so fed up I plucked up the courage to say no. I don't think she has done it since...

I do sympathise. I actually rather admire those who have the brass neck to bend people to their will in the way you describe, but am all too often on the receiving end !

Given the context, how about a prayer - of thanks to the Lord for this person's talents of, ah, persuasion - and a plea that she she be guided to use them on someone else?!

All the best
H

Good one.

Musicians in some churches are rather thin on the ground. They should all pull together. We all have very busy lives these days and it's a situation where many hands make light work. My husband is church organist and I get to be his "deputy" when he's away on business (ie the paid work!) so we have some experience of this ourselves.

I often feel like volunteering for something else when a plea goes out, but I sit on my hands - after all there are others in the congregation. I think you've done the right thing, peri busy.

My own experience as a church musician is that you can work yourself into the ground if you're not careful and nobody much thanks you for it.

I think we do need to learn to say "no" and mean it. If nobody else appears - then something doesn't happen. The likelihood is, someone will appear if it matters to the church that much.

God made the world and the 7th day was a rest day. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm struggling to find my "rest day" right now. Professional work Monday-Saturday and church all day Sunday. Any wonder we feel so tired

Hmmm

can totally sympathise. Church music seems to have taken over my life at the moment, and it's that difficult situation where you know they will be musicianless if you don't say yes - i just wish i knew how some of the other musicians in the area have the ability to say no! I've just agreed (without thinking sensibly) to co-ordinate the music for the ecumenical youth events - once a month, this on top of my own church's requirements, and the youth group I run...ignoring the piano teaching! I have just written to the church secretary explaining I will be absent 2 sunday evenings a month and they need to find a pianist. One is for my young people and the other so my husband and i (he's a clarinetist at church) can go somewhere else to worship and not have to play or organise or get criticised!

I'm sorry for the rant, but the subject is very very close to my heart!

Remember my origional couple of posts/rants here? Well, I have since had phone call to play for rehearsal, bring particular music to school practice and also provide book (my book) which contains particular hymns.

As I keep saying... doesn't know the meaning of the word!

Thou shalt not kill, do you think He meant it!?

(Still not doing it though)

What are you not doing - playing for the rehearsal or plotting the murder of the diocesan lady?!!

I'm convinced it is no part of the divine plan for you to be driven to kill by this steamrolling person! You know in your heart what God expects from you, and that's all you need to do. "His yoke is easy and his burden is light." Don't let pressure from other people convince you otherwise!

Bless you!

Maybe you should take a deep breath and then shout "B----r off" loudly down the phone, so that she would think you a totally unsuitable person to be involved in the church!

OK folks. Am arriving at a turning pont here with this situation.
Y'know, I am, in all seriousness, starting to feel upset about this person's attitude.
Latest...? Her responsibility was to rally troops for last week's choir practice, 1st since summer. I arranged my day, as you would - Prepared meal for my own family, got youngest son off and away with his homework and was there and waiting at 5 o clock, as per plan. Guess who 'hadn't managed to organise singers yet, because she was soooooooooo busy' ! Three wee kids turned up, two of which were new, with one old faithful. Also, she had rooted out, amazingly, another musical adult from our parish and brought him along. Then announced that I thought he could do A, B, C etc. re. organising music etc. OMG. Tactless or what. He and I both felt embarassed. I hadn't mentioned anyone by name to her when I asked she spread out the workload. Her comments were blatent in my opinion.
Then, she left me to fill in an hours practice with the three kids ( their parents wouldn't be collecting them until 6) and she went off, I later found out, for tea and apple tart!!!!

I am honestly torn here folks. I was the original musician for this group and agreed to the request upon the understanding that I would put my own family first if time choices had to be made, (yea!!!) and I remain the only one. I feel compelled now to remain because of the work, time and effort I have put in already and because I feel I would be letting my parish priest down if I stopped. But I am honestly feeling used and that I am simply a tool by which this single, no personal responsibilities, ticking my own career boxes, look how well I can organise our parish music, selfish, I am free to organise my own daily timetable because I only have to please myself, female can make herself look good on the strength of my sweat and tears.

I know this is a moan folks. I'm sorry, but would actually appreciate your guidance here. I am seriously feeling the NEED to get out of what I am percieving as a trap now. It's actually making me unhappy. I just know it's going to escalate. What do you think?

Not a teacher, but I recognise manipulation when I see it. You need to get out as quickly as possible, this woman clearly has no respect for you. It's delicate since it's a church thing, but staying in the situation you're just going to be walked all over all the time.

Good Luck... Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Being a Christian doesn't mean you have to let people walk all over you. Jesus got riled a times - remember the money lenders in the Temple?

It is very hard, I know, but I think you just have to say what you are prepared to do and what you are not and stick by it. This person will always try to make it look as if you are the one who is in the wrong so I think the only thing to do is to state you case to her and stand by what you say. Your life and those of your family are far more important than anything she can say or do.

In the end you are the only one who can stand firm so I should try to do it. I know how you must feel about the work you put into your music group. I think I understand because I once lost a choir because I said "No" over something I thoughj was important in my personal life. It was tough at the time but I have never regretted it.

Sorry for the late reply, peri busy - been away today and only just checked the forums.

I can't help thinking that it must be hard to have one person (the lady) mustering troops and another (you) actually running the choir, but I suppose you wouldn't have the time to do the mustering as well. It must have been infuriating to turn up and find such a small number of children, but at least there were two new ones, which is a hopeful sign!

The other hopeful thing is that she had persuaded another musical adult to show. I can quite see that what she said was embarrassing, but you do now know that someone else is willing to help out, which might be very useful in your busy periods. Explain to him what help you would actually like from him, and try to laugh together about her ladyship!

It seems to me that the main problem is the relationship between you and this lady. We all find certain personality types very difficult to get on with, and unfortunately she seems to be "one of those" as far as you're concerned. Perhaps, too, you are not quite seeing straight about the single life this lady leads; not having a husband and children can make people feel insecure, and every decision has to be taken alone. There is no-one to grumble to at the end of the day, so that you can get things off your chest (which may be why she jumped at the chance of tea and a chat). Probably your husband takes responsibility for part of running the household - maybe finance, insurance, things to do with the car - whereas she has to do everything for herself. I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but if you can put yourself in her position a bit more, it may help you to understand why she is the way she is!

That aside, it's really bad that you are feeling trapped like this. Have you tried talking to your parish priest and explaining how you feel? Only you can decide whether or not you want to continue with the choir. If you do, you shouldn't let this lady stop you. Does it matter so much to you that she is taking some credit for your work? Remember that God sees things the way they are, and in the end you are working for His glory. If, on the other hand, it's making you so miserable that you want out, don't be afraid to resign as choir mistress.

Lastly, we on the forums do not really know your situation - talk to the One who does!

Give it another week. It is the beginning of the academic year, after the summer etc etc. I have had a very difficult 2 weeks back into term and life is not yet functioning smoothly. However, I think that if I were you, I would ring "her ladyship" the evening before choir practice and enquire whether she had managed to muster the troops properly this week.

If yes, go ahead with some confidence.

If no, say please would she let you know when they would be ready, as you feel that it is a waste of your time to be in choir practice without a quorum to work with. Depending on the situation, I think I might feel inclined to confirm the conversation in writing, with copies to PP and any other relevant body in church.

Hi,

I don't have a husband, or any children , but I don't bully people in the way this lady does so I'm not sure how relevant that is. I think if peri busy has got to the stage of feeling miserable because of the situation, something has to give!

I know this lady probably appears intimidating, but don't be afraid of her... Explain as politely as possible that your time is valuable, you have many other commitments in your life. Don't feel guilty about saying "no" as I'm sure she doesn't feel guilty about putting so much pressure on you!

Hope I haven't upset you, ad_libitum. This was not intended to say anything about the many single people who cope perfectly well with their lives. It's just that bullies generally are insecure, so I was wondering whether this lady's insecurity stemmed from her singleness. I personally find it easier to cope with unpleasant people if I have some idea of why they're behaving as they do, so thought peri busy might also feel this way. Also felt that peri was only seeing the good side of the single life, and I know from my single friends that there is also a bad side.

I certainly agree with you that peri busy should not allow this situation to make her miserable, and I hope it is resolved very soon.

Oh no not at all - I understand better now Reading back throught the posts I see what you mean about the single life not neccessarily being responsibility free...

It could be part of the reason for the pushiness. I find lots of these types of people don't realise they are actually being a bully - they are just rather thoughtless. The behaviour is probably reinforced when others go along with them to "keep the peace". Maybe peri busy will be the one to break the cycle in this case

I have to say, I'm very good at giving out advice like "stand up to her!", but in reality, I'd probably be one of those who would just smile and nod (need to be more assertive), so I understand how difficult it is

Wow, what considerate responses. Thank you all.

I have been raving quietly on to my other half about this too. Advice is similar to yours. So, for now I have decided to continue on into this term, on my own terms. Any 'extra' requests will politely be declined and I will learn to not feel like the baddie.

Might I just say that I have huge respect for those of single status and have many good friends who are single and who have had many difficult times as well as good. My own siblings included. However, the woman concerned here I have known for quite some time. She lives, eats and breathes her work. Personally I find it sad, genuinely sad. But - she is intelligent. It's obviously her choice to live this way. But it's not mine, nor do I wish to be enrolled into her society so to speak.

Some might well tell me to grow a spine and just speak up for myself. I am a grown adult. Yes, I agree.

So. Here goes. I will keep you all posted.

Good luck! I know how difficult it can be to assert yourself for fear of offending... I'm sure it gets easier with practise!

Good morning fellow earlybirds.

Nice normal day planned, beautiful morning here. Choir later today. Feeling really optomistic. Have only had one more request from ......her (duh duh duh duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh! ). Going to see to practice with bright outlook . See you later.

Hope it all goes well!

So, how did it go?

Fed my crew, arrived for practice and set up - at arranged time ( wet from carrying in keyboard, stand and big bag of music through the rain). A deserted church is a place of beauty when the occasion calls for it - but not when it's rehearsal time! 10 mins later, three wee faces turn up. THREE!! 15 mins later again, fresh from ones hair appointment, she (duh duh duh duuuuuuuuuuuuuuh) arrives. Blessings upon her. She hadn't had time all week to contact the schools required re. resumption of practice ( 2nd week in a row now folks) and had to get her hair done because she had to be out that night. So did I!!!!!!. This time I was verbal, politely of course. She knew I was not impressed. Apart from my own gripes, she was the one who arranged and had us all attend the relevant child protection courses,part of which stipulates that no leaders may be alone with the children - but who sallys off to her appointments anyway, or is persistantly late? Next week will be the straw to the camel. I'll keep you posted.

Laws or no laws I would have packed my things and left her to babysit!! That is really not on. I would have been less than religeous in my choice of words to the good lady.

Choccie biscuits for the 3 wee ones , and a stiff G&T for you I think , and a black mark for her ladyship .

Methinks the time approaches for a revision of the music department at church, and leave his Reverence in no doubt about what's happening.

Fingers crossed for next week: you just have to remember, the imp's always in the choir (or music group, or whatever passes for music organisation in church).

".. the imp.."

Eh?

Well, if there's going to be any bother, it's often in the choir, usually where some-one thinks they know better than some-one else. However, in the case of your choir, I would say that the imp is her ladyship.

OK - I have spent a lot of time trying to see things from the steamroller's point of view, but even I have now lost patience with her ! peri busy, she is completely out of order and I'm surprised you didn't lose your temper with her. Have you spoken to your priest yet?

I hope you managed to make it fun for the faithful three - they must be fed up too, as I bet they thought there'd be more children than just them. If they don't come again, make sure you don't accept any part of the responsibility for it; it will all be down to Miss "Haven't had time". To be honest, it makes me more angry when people mess children about than when they inconvenience adults, and any charitable feelings I had for her ladyship have now evaporated.

I'm so pleased to hear you sounding happier this week, and hope being able to let off steam on the forums has helped. Fingers crossed she really will pull her finger out before the next practice!

The irony of it all is, there's almost certainly someone somewhere in the Diocese who would be delighted to play but never gets asked because their presence is not known about in the right circles.

Liz

The children concerned had a lovely time with me. I would never allow my issues to fall onto them. We had a choir karaoke you could say and I was really impressed by the newbies. Perhaps it was less daunting for them because it was quite intimate - rather than the usual thirty or so. Something positive I suppose.

I still don't want to bother my PP with this. He really carries a huge parish and I think I need to be patient, for him. He knows about her character and will share a wee joke about 'she who must be obeyed' occasionally. I know I will need to be more insistant re. my personal time and have decided that I will no longer accept her choices carte blanche.

I have found this wee bit sharing positive. I am grateful for your feedback guys. It is helpful for me to get other's opinions on a given situation and I have tried to convey circumstances as fairly and accurately as possible so as to allow you guys to be openminded. I admit, yes, I was feeling somewhat flustered - one of the reasons I was letting off steam here I suppose. But I think I wanted to be surer that I wasn't simply being selfish.

Your advice and opinions - varied and unbiased - have been taken on board.

If there is a closet musician in the parish, they are probably hiding under a forumesque stone for fear of... her!


The saga continues.

How about writing her a note saying you understand she is clearly too busy to organise this at present and therefore you are assuming that practices will not be continuing for the time being and you will wait to hear from her? That way you put the ball firmly in her court...

Oooooooooh, that is so tempting.....

Can I suggest that you try to avoid working on Saturdays? It is important to have some time off.

How many of us peris work on a Saturday? I had been teaching privately at home before I began peri work at schools/colleges. This home work included full 9 - 5 on a Saturday. I have gradually managed to shave this down to 9.30 - 12 now. I chose to allow for natural reduction in pupils and am not replacing them as they grow up and move on to uni or whatever. Last one was yesterday, actually quite a relief. She was my 9 o'clock, and hadn't really been trying for a quite a while. One of those blank look every week sort of pupils who has 'grown out of' her music, into A levels and the like. So, I was privately pleased if I am honest. We are going to get together at Christmas though, I invited her to come back to play at the church for our carol service. She has been there for the past few years. The invitation brought a smile to her face. It's always a great evening as most of our players are her age. So, an amicable parting.

But back on thread, I eventually hope to regain my Saturdays as far as teaching is concerned. Services keep me tied up on Saturdays and Sundays, along with weekday rehearsals though.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooo

Had visit from good friend yesterday. Says she (duh duh duh duuuuuuh) has plans for me to provide background music for some visiting church singers at end of October. This friend is completely unaware of my gripe so has nothing to gain by chatting to me about it. Now, this is the first I have heard if it... ho hum. Guess what...

Good grief! You don't just go about planning things for other people to do without asking them!

I had a "friend" like that who would announce I was going somewhere and when I said I couldn't..."But I've already told everyone you're coming!"

I hope you have a good answer ready

I hope you have a good answer ready
[/quote]
Don't know about 'good' but I do know that I will not be doing it. This is just another example of her ( duh duh duh duuuuuuuuh) organising my time and my life to her bidding. Isn't it a joke ?

I can just picture her now, weedling her way around me. Tell you what though, I am so going to enjoy listening to her ask me to do it ! Forewarned is forearmed Hee hee.

Oh yes! Give her plenty of time to talk about it and ask questions about the choir etc... then wait until the end before you tell her you have no time **evil laugh**

Even if you did have time, it's just the principal of the thing that would annoy me the most! She wasn't planning to ask you to do it...she was planning that you would be doing it!

I'm sure that on the occasion required you will have another pressing engagement , or if that is not possible, some monumental task to complete during the preceding fortnight.

I know I would

(In any case, how come she has the time to come to (ask) tell you about the visitng singers? Shouldn't she be at home preparing leaflets to give to school to tell them about the weekly choir practice that she doesn't have time to organise?????)

Good point!

This happened to me recently - turned up to teach one child, the parent had arranged to get a whole troupe of little ones together "for me" so I could give them a group keyboard lesson. Honestly!

Wearing my associate priest's wife hat, I would say you need to discuss this with your Parish Priest as a matter of urgency. He or she would hate to think you are "put upon" or unhappy like this.


Is there a way you could phone the schools yourself? Although you are busy, it sounds like it would be easier to make those phonecalls yourself and stuff this other lady. It would be better for both of you if any musical requests of you go via your Parish Priest so that both sides can be heard.

From what you are saying this womans behaviour is completely out of order. In an Anglican Church, like it or not, the buck stops with the Parish Priest, so let him or her know how you are feeling.

Well, I don't expect her to go to schools to teach my pupils, so why should I do her job for her? She has time to go for a wee cycle, or a walk in the park on a weekday afternoon. Too busy? Extended lunches? I'm lucky to get my lunch most days!

I agreed, many moons ago, to provide the musical accompaniment for this wee choir - for one Sunday in the month. The initial request has been bred out of all recognition at this point to unrecognisable proportion.
I feel I am only now seeing 'the light' , after having been chasing my tail for so long. Like I said in an earlier post, I am reclaiming ownership of my time. Some folk take advantage of others - some are taken advantage of. I know which group I choose to be in now.

**thinking**
Supposed to have next rehearsal of invisable choir in a couple of days. Will I be free...?

On the contrary, I think you should not phone the schools yourself. This good lady has taken on the job of organising the choir so that you can get on with the musical side of things, after all this requires considerable time to do it properly, therefore, if she is unable to do it herself, she should find someone else to do it. This seems to be a "partnership" thing, and as has been previously stated, 2 people should be present for the CRB checks to be fulfilled (or whatever).

However, if I were you, I would be a bit more wary this coming week, and I would catch the 3 wee ones' parents before choir practice, so that if no one else appears, choir practice could be cancelled and the little ones could go home, and you would not have to spend 1 hour of your time looking after them (even though you might be doing musically useful fun things with them).

Sorry if this is a ramble, and I'm not sure about my apostrophe's but I'm a bit jaded after an evening's teaching.

Ok, thought I would leave this wee update until now. I'm afraid I had another 'miffed' moment yesterday folks.

Weekly practice. Oh, did I say practice?

I used a wee bit of advice from you guys and phoned her earlier in the day to 'check' if all was ready for practice re. little bodies etc.. I was assured that all had been done and that indeed we could expect some older members to boot.

So, kids fed, car packed, drive up, set up for 5. Hmmmmmmm.


Five past, one older, new person arrives. Ten past she (duh duh duuuuuuh) arrives. Quarter past, adult recruit arrives (his raw chops in hand, to cook his dinner when he eventually got home). Ohhhhhhh, three little folk!

Sit. Sit. Talk. Twenty past, three older new members arrive. Talk, talk.

Half past, sound of me amusing myself quietly on keyboard, experimenting with voice options and so on.

That's right, we were supposed to be having a choir practice weren't we, not a youth club outing .
The penny finally dropped and she (who chooses the hymns) eventually handed over a new piece. I spent a couple of minutes looking over it and then we practiced for 10 minutes - until we were stopped for 'important announcements'.

Remember the impending visitors....... ? Two masses, yes two planned. I must confess that I was secretly enjoying the whole 'speech' and knew that it was all unfolding to the others. BUT she knew I was on to her. There were a plethera of glances in my direction as she set out her plans. BUT want some icing on your cake folks? In the middle of the talk, soooooooo skillfully inserted that even I have to take my hat off to her, she mentioned that she would be taking a step back from the whole thing after a couple of practices.

My comittment is 1 hour per week. (That's not counting the time either side for travel, setup, tidying after etc.).You know how I feel about the taking my time for granted thing, right? So, she planned that my practice would now run through for an additional 15 mins. Now, we all know that that turns out to be 30 or 45 and so on. In front of everyone she actually said, would that be alright? My response? "No". I felt realy, really embarassed and put in a positon where I wouldn't turn her down. But the hurtful thing is that I feel she was deliberate in her method. But I stuck to my guns. All sorts of other issued were politely passed on to the new recruit by myself. It's going to take him hours, the wee pet. When all was over I packed upand she had held back. She was quite frank and said that she felt I had the 'workings' of her. She actually commented that she appreciated my saying no and sticking to my guns, when so many others would have just told her to **** *** (under her breath of course!!!) Never mind the penny dropping, I think the Royal Mint is starting to drop!
Had a bit of a rant with my other half about it today. He is keeping me balanced.

So, looks like an agenda is on the cards. I am going to run alongside for now. Not happy but not feeling so misused this week.

Bit long this...