I was thinking about the different standards expected at different grades and wondering if a good distinction at one grade actually represented a higher standard than a scraped pass at the grade above. So, I looked at the tables for UCAs points and they seem to suggest that this is the case.

For practical exams:

Grade 8 - D: 75 M: 70 P: 55
Grade 7 - D: 60 M: 55 P: 40
Grade 6 - D: 45 M: 40 P: 25

And for theory:

Grade 8 - D: 30 M: 25 P: 20
Grade 7 - D: 20 M: 15 P: 10
Grade 6 - D: 15 M: 10 P: 5

One thing that jumps out at me is that, for practical exams, there's a much smaller difference in points between distinction and merit than between merit and pass.

The other is the overlap. For practical, a merit at one grade carries the same points as a pass at the grade above. For theory, a distinction or merit at grade 6 carries the same points as a merit or pass at grade 7, while a distinction at grade 7 is on a par with a pass at grade 8.

What I'm interested in knowing is whether, taking UCAS points out of the equation, there's a similar correlation between the AB results themselves. Does a merit in one practical grade equate to a pass at the next grade up? If you get a distinction at theory grade 7, does that mean you should be able to pass grade 8 theory if you took it there and then?

If you ran an ensemble and were dishing out places on the basis of AB results for some reason (obviously auditions would give you a better chance to assess candidates), would you choose someone with grade 6 merit over someone with grade 7 pass? Grade 6 distinction over grade 7 pass? What about grade 3 distinction over grade 5 pass?
Would a candidate with a better result at a lower grade be a better choice as they may be showing more musicality but less experience, and they'll gain the experience soon enough?

T.

I believe that it is generally considered that a merit or distinction at one grade implies the ability to pass at the next grade up, which is why candidates with those results often skip a grade. I don't believe a distinction at grade 6 has any implication for grade 8 and on the other hand I would hope that a pass at grade 8 would be considered "better" than a distinction at grade 6. This seems to be reflected in the UCAS points, which are interesting - thankyou for posting!

Interesting topic Teigr.

With my little clarinet pupil when (much to my surprise) he asked to do an exam we had a long conversation about whether to do G3 or 4. I felt that he was capable of getting a distinction at G3 but would probably get a pass at G4, and then only if he put some serious work in. He was certain that a pass at G4 was what he wanted so we went for it (he got a merit so with hindsight it was the right decision).

As a child I remember having very strong views (didn't we all!) and got very upset with my peers for the habit of saying they were G4 the instant they had passed G3. I still remember the feeling of guilt writing on an application form for a course that I was G5 when I was taking the exam the week after the course! I definitely didn't believe there was an overlap then

This is a very interesting topic, and one of my favourites for discussion. I think the assessment of music is two dimensional: the first is how difficult the pieces we chose to play are; the second is how well we play the pieces we choose to play. A grade tells us how hard the pieces we chose to play are; a mark tells us how well we play these pieces. If one has taken, and passed, a grade then it also ensures some (not incredibly high at the grade levels) minimal standard to which we can play these pieces (assuming that we got the pass mark from the pieces, of course, one could 'fail' one or more pieces but make up the marks on the other sections). It's often said that the last 10% of the work takes 90% of the time, this last 10% may well be the difference between a pass and a distinction.

As I said, I don't really think that a grade tells us a standard of playing, simply a difficulty of pieces one chooses to play (which is why it still remains useful when we wish to advise people on what repertoire to tackle). It would be foolish to think that everyone playing 'two grade levels' below oneself is not as 'good' a pianist as one is; likewise to assume anyone two levels above is 'better'. Firstly there's the lack of comparison because better is poorly defined; secondly there's the problem that the two people are not playing the same piece so how much artistry does one 'get away with'; and finally there's exam training, you may have spent 3 weeks getting your grade 2 pieces to distinction level, someone else may have spent 2 years getting their grade 4 pieces to pass level.... The two dimensions of playing are not interchangeable anyway: if one person plays more artistically, and another a more difficult piece, we really can't measure this objectively.

Personally I'd take a distinction at grade 6 over a pass at grade 8 any day; both to have for myself, or to enjoy the pleasure of listening to. Further, in a bet, my money would also be on the person who had got a grade 6 distinction being able to pass grade 8 more easily that the person who had (just) passed grade 8 to be able to get a distinction at grade 6. Too much emphasis is, in my opinion wrongly, placed on how difficult the pieces we play are. Most pieces are worthy of public performance, and it's possible to enjoy the performance of an easier piece; it's very difficult to enjoy a bad rendition of any piece. The order in which one 'likes' pieces does not necessarily correspond to the difficulty of playing them. I will admit there are some damned gorgeous fiendish pieces out there ; but there are also some pretty good easier pieces out there too , and I'd rather listen to one of these played nicely than one of the former butchered horribly. Interestingly the next piano grade I do will be grade 6; I do not believe that I would fail grade 8 if I took it when I will take grade 6, however, nor does that mean that I feel I should take grade 8 when I will be taking grade 6. I want grade 8 to mean to me that I'm ready to prepare for a diploma, taking it at this time would not mean that. Others will want grade 8 to mean different things, so will chose to take the exam at a different stage of their development: after all, remember, it's only the difficulty of pieces one chooses to play.

It comes down to the question of where's the skill in playing the piano? Getting through the harder pieces, or playing well. The answer, of course, is probably both. I don't think that one can directly compare a pianist with a grade 6 distinction to one with a grade 8 pass: the two have developed in different dimensions. Some make the argument that 'not everyone can get a distinction no matter how hard they work'; I'd like to think, however, that most people who have a pass at grade 8 could achieve a distinction at grade 1 so maybe that refutes this and those who aren't getting distinctions could if they very much slowed their pace, I don't know. Maybe everyone can get a distinction up to a certain level, but for some if they slowed their progress sufficiently to get distinctions they'd never reach grade 8?

I have definately heard people 2 grades lower than I am (on paper at least) who I consider to be much better pianists than me.



Count me in there. (Grade 6 merit, grade 8 pass......several years between)

That would be hard for me because of my low scores for the aural section!

Don't give up - my highest exam mark was 136 at G6 when I managed just 10 marks on the aural

Well, I wasn't going to give up, it's just rather harder! And I'm not as good as you - I got a mid-level merit for G7 with 11 marks for the aural. (Which was a better overall score but worse aural than my G6).

That's an interesting comment - and thought-provoking! I'd most certainly rather listen to someone with a distinction at Grade 6 than a pass at Grade 8, but as for which I'd rather be able to say I had if I was a student - I'm honestly not so sure! Which is sad, because I know myself which would be more illustrative of talent and hard work. But I also know how others view the grade system! Non-musicians only hear the grade, and often people who call themselves musicians only hear the grade as well. And how often do we hear from parents - "We only want her to pass..." Once again, it's our 'graded society' which is responsible for this attitude - which means that if I was deciding whether to aim for a Grade 6 distinction or a Grade 8 pass, I might just go for the Grade 8 to impress those I'd be telling rather than the few who would hear me play.

It is certainly true that there are those who will make it to Grade 8 without ever getting more than a pass or low merit at any grade, however much work they put in.

I think it's right, incidentally, that a distinction at a lower grade should attract more 'points' than a pass at a higher grade. Just in case my comments above are ambiguous! I'm just trying to put myself inside the head of a pupil.

Of course, if you need the G8 qualification for a particular purpose (e.g. to get on to a degree program) then you have to choose the G8 pass! Otherwise, if you keep on learning, does it really matter? I suppose if you only ever choose pieces that are hard for you, and never learn to play a piece to a "high" standard, you will lack a lot in your musical education. Similarly, if you don't increase the difficulty of the pieces you play, your musical level will stagnate. Probably a mixture is best...

I think that, for some kids, a bare pass is a real achievement and represents a LOT of very hard work.
Those are the same kids who might never be able to get a distinction, especially at higher grades, because they go to pieces in exams or because, although they're hard-working, they don't have much musicality.

But I think you're right - in most cases the parents are more interested in the grade than the details of the result.


It's hard to tell for sure just from exam results, because you don't know how hard someone worked on their exam preparation, how long they spent learning the exam pieces (I know a boy who started learning a grade 7 piece from scratch only a week before the exam), how much they decided for themselves about interpretation, registration etc., or how long they've been learning their instrument, but in general I would tend to see the grade as saying something about the level of experience someone has (which notes they can get out of their instrument, what sort of standard of pieces they can play, etc.) and the details of the result (pass/merit/distinction, the mark breakdown and the examiner's comments) as saying more about that person's musicality and potential. Someone who scrapes a pass in grade 4 flute will probably be able to play a few more notes and more complicated pieces than someone who's only just done grade 2, but if the grade 2 pupil got a high distinction, I would expect them to overtake the grade 4 pupil eventually.

Personally, I'd rather get a good result in a lower grade than just scrape a pass at a higher grade, but there are a couple of exceptions to that. When something other than your personal satisfaction depends on your passing a particular grade I think it can be OK to just go for the grade, especially if you intend to go back and fill in the gaps later. The obvious example of this is getting grade 5 theory if you have a grade 6 practical exam waiting on it. The other is the one I'm facing at the moment - needing to pass certain grades for university admissions. If they want at least a grade 7, then a pass at grade 7 meets their requirements and a distinction at grade 6 doesn't.

T.

It's fascinating that you know which musician you'd rather be but pressures from society lead you to different conclusions as to which would be the best piece of paper to have. I wonder if we as musicians are the most guilty of causing this problem: if we know better why don't we stand up and say it? Why do we encourage people to compare themselves on what 'grade' they are? It's interesting that some teachers even think it's a bad thing to list what marks people got as this is unfair and could discourage others; but so could what grade people have got!

It's very P.C. to tell someone who's disappointed they've not got a distinction to 'get over it and stop being ungrateful'; yet someone who's attempted a high grade in a short length of time and failed is told 'you've done very well and commiserated' rather than being told 'well you've only been playing 9 months it's not surprising you couldn't pass grade 8, stop being ungrateful'. I think the person who is disappointed not to have got a distinction is just as justified (if not more so); especially if they've always previously had distinctions as technically (unless they're at the grade 5/6 gap) their playing has officially got worse in terms of how well they play, but whilst the difficulty of the pieces they're playing has gone up: have they improved or not? What saddens me is when youngsters who have been playing for ages and working really hard to get to grade 8 standard start bowing to the superiority of person X who has done it in 2 years, even if person X has only played 3 pieces ever! The first person is usually by far the better pianist.


But if those people had done grade 4 at the time they did grade 8, 3 at the time they did 6 etc. would they have managed distinctions then? Despite only having reached grade 4 in the time they otherwise reached grade 8? I think that is an interesting debate, and something I don't really have a great deal of insight into.

Something else worth thinking of: a person with a pass at grade 8 has demonstrated they're not yet capable of getting a merit/distinction at that level. A person with a distinction at grade 6 could equally have been capable of getting a distinction at grade 8 had they chosen to take that. If Brendel took grade 6 piano he'd get a distinction; if he took grade 8 piano he'd also get a distinction, not a pass....


This is often people being mislead most performance orientated courses don't trust exams, so instead have auditions. They give grade 8 distinction 'standard' as a benchmark, but don't require the exam: they want to hear it for themselves. Therefore a recent grade 8 pass could even potentially go against one .


Exactly, if one always practises playing pieces to a pass standard that's what one will learn to do: one learns what one practises. There are two dimensions to be gained in music: difficulty of pieces and quality of performance, improving the two often requires contradictory practise: play harder pieces for the former and easier ones for the latter. My philosophy on this one is to play pieces that are hard enough one has to work to achieve being able to play them (thus pushing difficulty) but easy enough that one will eventually be able to play them well. Some people believe playing very stretching pieces is the only way to improve difficulty: I don't agree with this as I feel it just teaches one to play hard things badly. It's back to the question of whether a pass (or close to passing fail) at a higher grade implies the ability to score well on a much lower grade.

Definitely. I'm playing grade 5 pieces but I know people who are "only" grade 3 who are probably better pianists (though I may be a better musician) and I'm sure there are many more out there.


Yes!

To quote myself (sorry!):



I'm sure some people on some instruments simply aren't capable of 1) distinctions or 2) getting past a certain grade level. I'm pretty certain I'm unlikely to EVER progress beyond, say, grade 6 piano, no matter how long you give me. I'm equally certain that even if I forced myself to learn 3 grade 8 pieces one day it's unlikely I'll ever get grade 8 distinction on the piano! BUT... on the whole I agree that a lot of scraped passes would suggest to me that someone was going too fast. My own piano playing is a case in point - I had 3 years of lessons as a child and got scraped-to-good passes in grades 1-3. I'm sure that I would have done better/not scraped/maybe even got a merit or two if I had not been pushed through those grades way too fast for my ability and confidence on the instrument.


Yes, on both counts: too many parents just want the grade level to keep rising, but it's true that for some people (for whatever reason) a merit is beyond what they're capable of.

To be fair I was massively overprepared for my G6 (with the obvious exception of the aural) and had already started preparing the scales for G8 before taking the G6 exam. I took G8 about 2 terms after 6 getting a pass for 8 (I wasn't ready, just wanted to re-do it before GCSEs, I think a pass was probably quite generous so I retook it after the long summer holiday when better prepared). This possibly adds evidence to 'a distinction at 6 is similar standard to pass at 8' as I doubt I improved that much in 2 terms (though I did get a couple more marks in the aural )

We don't disagree! What I was trying to do was put myself in the mindset of a pupil - because I can understand how it may seem more important to them to be able to quote a higher grade, irrespective of the mark. For example, pupils auditioned to play for a local school concert are required to have passed a certain grade. (Can't remember which grade now, but that's irrelevant!) And when I hear pupils talking to each other - both mine and other teachers' - their interest is in 'what grade' they're aiming for; not what they got in the last one. It is for this sort of reason that I can understand why grade is more important than mark for some, when in the company of others. The need for approval from peers is strong in children and teenagers.

As for who will ultimately be the best pianist amongst them - the proof of the pudding will be in the eating well past Grade 8! Grade 8 is not the horizon. Some want to hit Grade 8 as quickly as possible - and then start to relax, settle down and learn to play. Others do it the other way round.