Hi there I am working through the harmony in practice book (The big orange one) and I came across a question ( Page 5 excercise 4c) It asks me to write out a triad in the key of C minor. The triad it asks for is a bVII chord. The key signature already contains 3 flats am i meant to double flatten the root? I assume if they wanted the bVII chord in C minor that it would be Bbbmajor? Beacuse the way I was taught was that for Bb major in the key of Cminor it would be written as just VII not bVII. Am i right? Hope you can help thanks, Mike.

Is it maybe talking about VIIb chord, where the third is the lowest note? Or am I not even close!?

No it is in root position. It means the chord on the flattened bVII of the scale.

The answer is, from the bass, BbDF. You don't flatten the Bb twice. Look at the example at the top of the page, also in c minor, just written in treble clef.

The bVII, is as you say, a major chord (extended Roman notation). The b is a reminder that the bass note is a Bb. This distinguishes it from the ovii (minor diminished) chord, when the bass note will be a B natural, ( ie using the sharpened seventh note). It all depends on which minor scale is being used.

Hope this helps.... I'm no expert! If this is wrong, please correct me!!!

QUOTE (Emma C @ Aug 28 2004, 05:39 PM)

It all depends on which minor scale is being used.

a Bb isn't in a C minor scale in either form: the b HAS to be in front of the VII, because the VII is a triad on B.

QUOTE (Sukimonster @ Aug 28 2004, 02:56 PM)

Hi there I am working through the harmony in practice book (The big orange one) and I came across a question ( Page 5 excercise 4c) It asks me to write out a triad in the key of C minor. The triad it asks for is a bVII chord. The key signature already contains 3 flats am i meant to double flatten the root? I assume if they wanted the bVII chord in C minor that it would be Bbbmajor? Beacuse the way I was taught was that for Bb major in the key of Cminor it would be written as just VII not bVII. Am i right? Hope you can help thanks, Mike.

Following on from the post before that I made (but quoting this post!): the key signature has 3 flats, but remember that the Bb never is used, because in the minor scale it's always sharpened to the B. A Bb doesn't appear in the scale of C minor: it does appear in the key signature of C minor.

Thanks emma you are indeed right. The way I was taught originally was the "jazz" way which would imply that it was double flattened. Thanks a lot for your help.

As far as composing the triads on each degree of the scale is concerned, in the minor keys the flattening of the root does not make the chord chromatic in the case of III, VI or VII - it's just selecting the flattened alternative (compare the ascending and descending meloding minor scales) and saying that you don't mean the diminished triad on the leading note B natural.

But the functions of bVII (B flat, D, F) and VII in minor keys are quite different.

bVII in a minor key is most likely to function as the dominant of the relative major bIII (B flat is the dominant of E flat which is the relative major of C minor), and should probably be christened V of bIII or treated as a modulation to the relative major in many contexts. VII (the diminished chord on B natural in C major or minor) on the other hand is a variant of V (in C, it has F instead of G and is really a version of Vc which is not a six-four - chords with a fourth above the bass being avoided in classical harmony except where the fourth is a suspension resolved on a third as in Ic - V - I), and is important in certain kinds of progression in Bach (I - VIIb - Ib in C gives C - D - E in the bass and allows E - D - C in an upper part). It replaces a dominant chord between two tonics (Mozart was to use Vc instead, preferring the fourth above the bass to the diminished seventh B natural - F in VII). bVII should not, therefore, be considered a variant of VII.

Similarly bIII is the tonic chord of the relative major (and thus facilitates a modulation from say C minor to A flat major), whereas III leads to the chord a fifth below it, VI, as V leads to I.

I'm not quite sure what function bbVII, on B double flat in C minor, might have, unless someone had misspelled VI!

hiya
chord bVII consists of the notes Bb D and F. The B is a BFlat because before, it was natural, due to it being the raised 7th of the key.

Hello, I have a theory question too. I haven't done theory in a while, but I have homework I need to complete. How do you notate a diminished chord that starts on the leading note in extended Roman?

vii o [the zero is at the top or bottom, anyway you prefer]