Following on from Emma C's poll where (at the last time of looking) 15 ladies voted and 2 men, it leads me to ponder again one of the great mysteries of the universe, namely why don't men get involved in singing as often as ladies do?

Men sing at football or rugby matches and karaoke with relatively little prompting. Why don't they carry this ability over into choirs? Is it because of having to read the bass clef? Or both clefs to sing tenor? Is it because they generally don't get the tune and therefore are not the most conspicuous part of a choir? Is it because music is seen as being "girly"?

Ask any mixed choir in the country, and they will say they are short of men.

This is particularly aggravating as the majority of interesting solos in choral works are for men, men tend to have better roles in operas, cathedral choirs are, in the main, male ones and so-on. For the chap who chooses to take their singing seriously there are many more opportunites than for us girls!

SO WHY WON'T THEY SING WITH US??

David, Freda or anyone else - any ideas?

Cheers

Katyjay

It's an interesting question....

Living in a part of the world where there were many Male Voice Choirs - and there still are a good few - men singing in choirs is not an unusual sight. Except when it somes to mixed choirs.

Obviously there are a few very good choirs in the county that are not short of me - I think by their repuataion they tend to draw the best singers away from the other smaller chours, where attracting men is a big problem. It's also very sad to see some of the MV choirs struggling to get younger members, and part of the culture of Cornwall is going to disappear. All very sad.

However, as you say, getting boys to sing, especially in catherdal and church choirs is less of a problem, here at least.

In some places singing is not something that boys do.
Partly peer pressure and partly that parents of boys also see singing as a girly activity.

That reminds me of a lament one parent made to me at a Diocesan Choral Festival. Dad was really very proud of his daughter's achievememts, but asked me why he had a girly girl who was interested in singing, and not a girl who was into rugby! He'd rather spend his Saturday on the rugby pitch rather than a cathedral...

Parent's attitudes do count for a lot.

i agree...i don't normally see men sing in groups except in mixed choirs...

I reckon it's the whole looking macho thing. I know that because most of the singers in school were girls, I was anxious what people would think of me when I went to an audtion for lessions. Now I'm glad I did of course, and yes the male/female thing has been apparent to me in a group that I'm part of where there're about 15 women with only 2 males (myself included).

It makes harmonies/group singing difficult due to lack of range, especially at the low end.

Start singing guys!

I'm agreeing with freda_bloogs - machoness seems to be an issue when it comes to singing, and its not a huge number of men who managed to make it through their youth and continue singing even though other men would tease us.

Anyway, I don't complain that I'm outnumbered 5 to 1 in choirs by women!

i agree...i think they better start singing...or we'll end up singing in a all-women choir in the future..

I think that one of the other problems is that, unless you have a unison choir the men HAVE to either read music and/or have a very good ear for hearing lower/ inner parts.
Ladies who can sing a bit but not do that can just join the sopranos and mostly sing the tune

Yeah i agree with that. in my church choir, we have 12 sopranos, 1 treble, 6 altos, 1 and a half tenors and 2 basses (but they only sing the tune) however, i also go on a choir camp where the are loads of men and lads. thats probably because when their voices break, (well a bit after) they are allowed in the pub! At school, 3 out of the 5 male members of staff who sing have just left! We need to encourage more lads to get into choir singing! Its great!!

can't promote in my school......as i'm studying in a girls' school.... how sad...

QUOTE (DavidMusic @ Aug 29 2004, 06:49 PM)

I'm agreeing with freda_bloogs - machoness seems to be an issue when it comes to singing, and its not a huge number of men who managed to make it through their youth and continue singing even though other men would tease us.

There are some gifted teachers around who can get teenage boys to sing and sing really well. I live in Berkshire, and Gillian Dibdin (sp?) has excellent teenage boy singers in the Berkshire Youth Choir which she conducts. You may have seen/heard them on Choir of the Year, and may also have seen her getting a special award at the competition last year for her outstanding work. We need to clone her...

Yup!

men don't sing because they are afraid of getting embaressed, especially when it comes to performances.

In school, only 2 guys sing...out numbered by the girls.
But they don't quit and i really respect them.

Guys should just go for it! no matter what!

agree..............

The Royal Grammar School in High Wycombe has a fantastic Close Harmony group made up entirely of tenors and basses. They also have a huge school SATB choir... they move the boys down the parts as their voices break! I remember my brother, who is now 14, coming home a few years ago and saying "I'm in the altos now!!!". (He's now a tenor and very proud of himself!) I do think it must be a bit embarrassing if you're stuck in the trebles for ages though...

agreee....especially with tooo many girls around

QUOTE (liebe_klavier @ Sep 18 2004, 01:26 PM)

agreee....especially with tooo many girls around

well he's at an all-boys school which could be why the choir is so full... i think a lot of boy trebles feel intimidated by the number of girls in the sopranos... although i can't be sure of that! certainly at my music centre there aren't any boys in the youth choir singing alto or treble... they're all tenors and basses (which i suppose is fair enough!!!)

maybe they only join the choirs after their voices have broken and realise that it is a good way to meet girls? (not that that's the only reason or anything... ok i'll stop digging now...)

this is the brother of cheeble...
yes, RGS High Wycombe has a fantastic choir - all the little year 7's sing treble (and some of the year 8's too) and getting into year 8/9 they usually move down to Alto. in about year 10/11 people generally join the tenors and usually the basses are all in the 6th form.
There are a few more vocal groups in my school to try and get males into singing more - the whole of year 7 sings a peice every year, and this usually encourages them to join the choir and aspire to be in the close harmony group, who are fantastic. They sing everything imaginable at every concert and are always the best!
males do sing!

Why don't guys sing? Get this one...my elder son brought his report card home from school last term, made for very nice reading...until I reached the "poor" for music. ?

"Don't worry, Mum, the teacher already told us that all the boys whose voices were breaking wouldn't pass, because the entire term test was a singing test." This is the specialist middle school teacher whose sole job is to implement the national music curriculum for young people aged 12-15.

Is it a cultural thing? I go over to Wales and I weep when I hear all those magnifcent male choirs and meet the men who have been singing 'properly' since they were knee high. At my son's boys-only school (with music high on the curriculum), in England I was very disappointed that they didnt have a full male choir when he started, however with the arrival of a new music teacher 'from the outback' who had been former 'piano lounge lizard' in his youth, the boys negative attitiude quickly changed as the Australian worked really hard not only to get a choir going with a modern repitoire, but to get the attempts at 'Robbie Williams' & 'Jamie Cullum' to sing in tune! The subsequent concerts became very lively occasions and several entered vocal studies for their music exams.

There used to be a boys choir at our school, except it fell aprt after 6 months because they kept fighting over what they wanted to sing, and some of them wanted to play football instead!

Out of about 40 students at my school that have sining lessons only 3 of us are male. In our school choir there are 4 of us regular boys out of about 15 girls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hey its not so bad!!!!!!!!
I entirley agree tho, there should be a national push to rectuit male singers.

I sometimes hope to join a choir, but my school only needs bass but not tenor!
And those tenors are better than me! Although my sense of notes should be better than them.

it doesn't really matter....... as long as u can sing

QUOTE (Alvin @ Nov 7 2004, 03:21 PM)

I sometimes hope to join a choir, but my school only needs bass but not tenor! And those tenors are better than me! Although my sense of notes should be better than them.

In the outside world you are more likely to find choirs crying out for tenors than for basses, so keep working at it!

yeah, i think theres a national shortage of tenors! but in my church choir we have 2 good ones, and 2 not very good basses! At the choir camp i go on, there are about 40 sops/trebles, about 10 altos, about 10 tenors and about 35 basses! Its great!

QUOTE (katyjay @ Aug 29 2004, 08:53 AM)

Men sing at karaoke with relatively little prompting.

I think that might have something to do with being intoxicated

In our choir at college there are more boys than there are girls! Then our choir leader person thingie says we aren't singing loud enough to balance the choir!

why can't the director be more selective on choir memebers..... being head of choir sometimes makes me quite embarrassing...as some of the members don't know how to sing

QUOTE (liebe_klavier @ Nov 8 2004, 09:15 PM)

why can't the director be more selective on choir memebers..... being head of choir sometimes makes me quite embarrassing...as some of the members don't know how to sing

Maybe they just need some more confidence, and having that attitude about them isn't going to help. Your choir director must have let them in for a reason.

Try having a little more faith, or, instead of critising, try offering to help them. DO they have teachers? Maybe that is why they are unsure.

And since you are doing your diploma in singing soon, maybe you should accept that not everyone is at a high standard as you.

okay okay....i understand...... it's just that most of the girls here in this choir don't have singing lessons.... unlike the other one...in which most of the singers are hand-pick (i'm in that one as well)....

QUOTE (liebe_klavier @ Nov 9 2004, 09:22 PM)

okay okay....i understand...... it's just that most of the girls here in this choir don't have singing lessons....

Neither do I. Im in a choir at college. I do it for fun (that and its compulsary for A level music students). Maybe these girls also do it for fun.

There are only a few people who have singing lessons in our entire school, so if only the people who had singing lessons were allowed in choir, there'd be about 10 people. Having said that, you can tell the difference between people who've had lessons and people who haven't. We have a hand-picked choir, although it's main condition this year is that you're in 6th form. Last year, it was A2, AS and top GCSE people who were in it, so we're not as good now! It's still fun though. I'd quite like to have a singing lesson, just to see what I'm doing wrong!

actually, you can tell the difference between those who having singing lessons and those who don't have.... their whole posture and many other technique are so different from those who don't have lessons... also...most of them are more discipline.... the problem is that... most of those don't have singing lessons cann't sing "bang in tune" and two other girls and me have to "rescue" the choir at the end....

QUOTE

actually, you can tell the difference between those who having singing lessons and those who don't have....

I didn't say you can't tell the difference. Theres certainly a big difference between me and my friend (who has singing lessons)

QUOTE

most of those don't have singing lessons cann't sing "bang in tune"

No neither can I, but I'll have a go.

QUOTE

and two other girls and me have to "rescue" the choir at the end....

Put so nicely there. Offer to help them

i do offer to help them.... it's just that it's hard....to accept that you got some horrible people in the choir.... relying on someother people...

WHAT BECAUSE THEY ARE HAVING DIFFICULTIES WITH SINGING IT MAKES THEM "HORRIBLE"??

Jeez, I must be the most evil person to ever grace the planet then, because choir is the most difficult thing I have done in music recently!

Subatomic_Star, though I don't know you, I'm sure you're not a horrible person! You don't have to sing perfectly to enjoy singing. (and for that matter, NO ONE is perfect). As long as you're having fun, that's all that counts.

In my choir we only have 7 altos and i'm the section leader, so yes I lead my section, and unfortunately we do have some rather bad altos. However, they're really nice people! I'd much rather be in a choir with people I like who can't sing very well than people who aren't very nice and can. I only help them if they ask me to because they are my peers and I don't feel it is my place. Instead, I sing the correct notes, rhythms, etc. loudly and sometimes almost in their ear until they get it. They appreciate it and have actually said thank you. Liebe Klavier, you should feel honored to be one of the best in your choir, not burdened. We all have our strengths and weaknesses...

yes..... i'm quite proud of myself....being one of the best singer in the choir

QUOTE (liebe_klavier @ Nov 11 2004, 08:40 PM)

yes..... i'm quite proud of myself....being one of the best singer in the choir

And modest with it

So it's up to us a parents/future parents of boys to take them to church, to encourage them to take singing lessons, it's up to their fathers - whether or not they are musical - to encourage them even if they don't agree (women can nudge their husbands, right?)....because otherwise just saying "go boys, sing" is not going to help much :-)

I sing myself so I suppose just by the fact he sees me and we often listen to classical music at home, that's preparing the gorund for my 2 year old son, should he have the ear and inclination to take it up later on :-)...learning by example is big (we all saw out mum reading and 2 out of 3 of us ended up being big readers...)

So all you mums and future mums out there...you know what is left to do (and singing dads of course!)

QUOTE (lafrog @ Nov 18 2004, 02:39 PM)

So it's up to us a parents/future parents of boys to take them to church,

That may be a good way to produce singers in some places, but it is not necessary. My two home-grown offspring (the adopted one has different talents) were brought up with me as an atheist example and we took them to church only for weddings, but they both still sing, my daughter professionally. We used to sing rounds on car journeys. My wife remembers our son singing Frère Jacques at the age of two (better tuning than diction at that age!).

QUOTE (kenm @ Nov 18 2004, 11:14 PM)

QUOTE (lafrog @ Nov 18 2004, 02:39 PM) So it's up to us a parents/future parents of boys to take them to church, That may be a good way to produce singers in some places, but it is not necessary. My two home-grown offspring (the adopted one has different talents) were brought up with me as an atheist example and we took them to church only for weddings, but they both still sing, my daughter professionally. We used to sing rounds on car journeys. My wife remembers our son singing Frère Jacques at the age of two (better tuning than diction at that age!).

I'd agree with that... my family are Quakers, who worship in silence. We certainly don't have any songs!! However when we lived in Norway my mum sang in the Trondheim Cathedral Choir (even when she was pregnant with me, apparently I used to kick in the loud passages... I reckon that's why I sing now!)

I was not suggesting that church is the only way to go to learn singing...! In fact I did not go to church much as a kid either, and I did a lot more singing in the car. But in families where the Dads take a "singing is for girls" approach, church can be a way to get boys singing (which I seem to remember was the point of this thread?)

Makes me think of a dad at a Saturday afternoon Cathedral Choral Festival asking why he didn't have a daughter interested in Rugby... she still sings, and he still goes to support her.

QUOTE (Subatomic_Star @ Nov 18 2004, 10:01 AM)

QUOTE (liebe_klavier @ Nov 11 2004, 08:40 PM) yes..... i'm quite proud of myself....being one of the best  singer in the choir And modest with it

liebe klavier- i think you need to realise that not every person(me and Helen included) is as brilliant a singer as you. not everyone who is alive can sing. some people like singing for fun even if they can't sing a note in tune, they enjoy it. i think if the people who you say are in your choir but can't sing were given praise and encouraged to do better and stuuff then maybe they would be better singers. instead i expect they're getting laughed at which is not fair, coz not every one can be as brilliant and wonderful as you.

QUOTE (clarinetlover @ Nov 21 2004, 07:56 PM)

liebe klavier- i think you need to realise that not every person(me and Helen included) is as brilliant a singer as you. not everyone who is alive can sing.  they enjoy it. i think if the people who you say are in your choir but can't sing were given praise and encouraged to do better and stuuff then maybe they would be better singers. instead i expect they're getting laughed at which is not fair, coz not every one can be as brilliant and wonderful as you.

QUOTE

some people like singing for fun even if they can't sing a note in tune

Yeah, sounds like me!

Did you see 'Can't sing singers' last night? I thought some of them actually had quite a lot of potential, some of them really couldn't sing. I wish some of the 'hopeless cases' had been chosen for the challenge. Will be interesing to see what happens next week!

Yeah i saw that! Some of it was quite hilarious! All of 'em were better than me though!

surely not?!

Maybe after a few weeks it'll give you inspriation and convince you that there is hope after all....

I really do hope so!