Hello,
my daughter has just started her A levels. Ever since i can remeber she has wanted to do Music as a career, by that I mean get her degree and play for a big touring orchestra. However she has now reached the age where she is looking more closely at the statistics for musicians and was pretty horrified about the number who do not get to 'do anything musical' with their degree's. I think its only about 10% who make it into professional orchestra's, and while many do find employment in various aspects of the music industry this sector was not really her, she likes to play and is pretty good so far, grade 8 Violin and Piano and 7 at Theory. As I have seen with other musicians her other big interest is Maths and she has been looking at that as a second choice future, and just going by the numbers nearly all maths grads find good well paid employment. She really does want to study music, but sometimes her practical head says WHY when you have little chance of getting the career you really want and will have debt from 4 years at college to pay back as well. Obviously time is on her side for the moment but next year some hard decisions will have to be made when it comes time for applications to university.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated....
Full Version: Is Studying Music At University Worth It....
Hi temple 01
YES it is. My parents discouraged me from studying music at uni for the same reason. I studied a business course instead and after 2 years couldn't finish it because my heart wasn't in it. Financially it meant that I had 2 years of uni to pay for. Now it means that I have to pay for another 3 years of studying music.
I've taken lots and lots of short courses in between, and I'm a piano teacher now, it was definitely a mistake not to have studied music. Even if you don't take a career in music, I think it's important to study for a degree that interests you. Apart from anything else there's plenty of distractions at university, if you don't like your course, they're even more appealing!
It sounds like your daughter wants to perform, so maybe she should consider music college which gives more opportunities for playing, furthering technical ability and finding contacts.
YES it is. My parents discouraged me from studying music at uni for the same reason. I studied a business course instead and after 2 years couldn't finish it because my heart wasn't in it. Financially it meant that I had 2 years of uni to pay for. Now it means that I have to pay for another 3 years of studying music.
I've taken lots and lots of short courses in between, and I'm a piano teacher now, it was definitely a mistake not to have studied music. Even if you don't take a career in music, I think it's important to study for a degree that interests you. Apart from anything else there's plenty of distractions at university, if you don't like your course, they're even more appealing!
It sounds like your daughter wants to perform, so maybe she should consider music college which gives more opportunities for playing, furthering technical ability and finding contacts.
Both myself (way back in 1965) and my daughter (12 yrs ago) had to make the same decision. I had ALCM on piano and Grade 8 organ at the time. My daughter had grade 8 Piano and Violin .
Neither of us did Music at Uni. In may case Chemistry, and in my daughters Maths (she has even got a MSc in statistics). We have both successful careers, but music has always been a very strong part of our lives (she is in the Hertford S.O.), and thoroughly enjoyable without having the stress of being our livelihood.
So there arguments both ways. !
Neither of us did Music at Uni. In may case Chemistry, and in my daughters Maths (she has even got a MSc in statistics). We have both successful careers, but music has always been a very strong part of our lives (she is in the Hertford S.O.), and thoroughly enjoyable without having the stress of being our livelihood.
So there arguments both ways. !
I hope you don't mind me replying, as I'm not a parent, but I think I can relate to your question 
.
. QUOTE(temple01uk @ Sep 13 2007, 11:18 AM) 
She really does want to study music, but sometimes her practical head says WHY when you have little chance of getting the career you really want and will have debt from 4 years at college to pay back as well.
One of the thoughts I've had. Statistics from a number of UK Universities show that the highest percentage of Music Graduates go onto have careers in education. All very well if you want to be a teacher, but for students such as your daughter it probably isn't the path they want to take. (I should add, I'm currently in the process of applying to study Music/English at University.) However, when I ignore the practical voice in my head, I realise how important it is to study something which interests you. As boogiecat said, there are enough distractions without adding a dislike of your course to the equation. QUOTE(temple01uk @ Sep 13 2007, 11:18 AM)
As I have seen with other musicians her other big interest is Maths and she has been looking at that as a second choice future, and just going by the numbers nearly all maths grads find good well paid employment.
I'm completely tied between studying English and/or Music. With English, there are so many 'obvious' paths you can take once you've graduated, whereas with Music it's not really so clear cut. For this reason, my parents discouraged me for a year or so from persuing Music, but have come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, it's a degree. Employers in most fields look upon a degree as a fabulous asset, and so the 4 years are never going to have been completely wasted. As many of the forum members have said in the past, a fair number of them studied Music to a high level, graduated and had a career completely unrelated to music. A few years later they returned to it, and as far as I know, they've never really looked back.QUOTE(temple01uk @ Sep 13 2007, 11:18 AM)
Obviously time is on her side for the moment but next year some hard decisions will have to be made when it comes time for applications to university.
I wish your daughter every success. One suggestion I do have though is that if she is still uncertain about which course she wants to do when it comes to the time for applying, perhaps she could apply for them both and see what conditions are placed on her final year at school? That might help her to see where she wants to go. QUOTE(Miss Ross @ Sep 13 2007, 11:52 AM)
For this reason, my parents discouraged me for a year or so from persuing Music, but have come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, it's a degree. Employers in most fields look upon a degree as a fabulous asset, and so the 4 years are never going to have been completely wasted.
Well said
- let's face it, music is not alone in many people not ending up working within the bounds of their degree subject. Many, many people don't, from all sorts of different study backgrounds. Has she considered combining Maths and Music?
Something worth considering is what the actual requirements are to be accepted by a professional orchestra, if that's her chosen path. A lot of degree work is fairly academic, and may not necessarily help her through an audition. So it's possible that she could spend four years doing something that won't actually further her cause much. (What, incidentally, does a professional orchestra require you to have before it will consider you for audition?) It's worth thinking, too, about the fact that many orchestral musicians need to teach in order to top up their income!
QUOTE(temple01uk @ Sep 13 2007, 11:18 AM)
Hello,
my daughter has just started her A levels. Ever since i can remeber she has wanted to do Music as a career, by that I mean get her degree and play for a big touring orchestra. However she has now reached the age where she is looking more closely at the statistics for musicians and was pretty horrified about the number who do not get to 'do anything musical' with their degree's. I think its only about 10% who make it into professional orchestra's, and while many do find employment in various aspects of the music industry this sector was not really her, she likes to play and is pretty good so far, grade 8 Violin and Piano and 7 at Theory. As I have seen with other musicians her other big interest is Maths and she has been looking at that as a second choice future, and just going by the numbers nearly all maths grads find good well paid employment. She really does want to study music, but sometimes her practical head says WHY when you have little chance of getting the career you really want and will have debt from 4 years at college to pay back as well. Obviously time is on her side for the moment but next year some hard decisions will have to be made when it comes time for applications to university.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated....
I'm studying a Music degree, and I'm in my second year now. If your daughter wants to be a professional session musician in her chosen instruments, you both need to realize that it is a cut-throat industry! I have the same dream, but I know that the likely-hood of it happening for me right now is next to none. I am keeping the dream alive through various things that I do, but I have also decided to study to become a professional teacher and share what I know with others. TV, radio, composition, etc are just some of the other areas that a degree can lead you.
I think a career advisor would help and give some guidance.
For what it's worth, several of my scientist colleagues have joint (first) degrees in physics/music. I expect joint maths/music would work well (at least in the US, not so sure about the UK for this...)
Getting into a professional orchestra is very, very difficult these days, as there is so much competition. Your daughter would almost certainly have to teach music for some of the time anyway, as musicians can't usually make ends meet just by performing. Unless she is completely driven to do music, and can cope with lots of disappointments, yet somehow still want to go on no matter what, she would be much better off keeping music as a hobby.
There aren't a lot of universities which offer maths and music, but if your daughter is very good at maths she could apply to one of the London places and either try for a scholarship or just enrol for lessons at the RCM or RAM. For instance, I know that Imperial College offer 5 music scholarships entitling the holder to lessons at the RCM, and I think it's King's which does something similar for the RAM. However, there's no doubt lots of competition for these, and it's not easy to get in for maths either.
See how things go over the next year. A level maths is quite a step up from GCSE, and people tend to sink or swim. If your daughter is swimming along nicely she may find she gets more keen on Maths; conversely, she may find that Music is definitely what she prefers.
There aren't a lot of universities which offer maths and music, but if your daughter is very good at maths she could apply to one of the London places and either try for a scholarship or just enrol for lessons at the RCM or RAM. For instance, I know that Imperial College offer 5 music scholarships entitling the holder to lessons at the RCM, and I think it's King's which does something similar for the RAM. However, there's no doubt lots of competition for these, and it's not easy to get in for maths either.
See how things go over the next year. A level maths is quite a step up from GCSE, and people tend to sink or swim. If your daughter is swimming along nicely she may find she gets more keen on Maths; conversely, she may find that Music is definitely what she prefers.
Hello,
many thanks for all the replies and advice. I certainly agree that a degree of any desription is something well worth having. We have discussed joint degree's before and a few universities offer them, notably Imperial and Royal Holloway, where uniquely you can tailor the degree to suit yourself - either 50/50 maths/music or with a 75/25 bias and both offer lessons at the music college if your considered good enough. Certainly something to keep in mind. At the moment she is just settling in to her A level timetable so we will see what she makes of the Maths/Further Maths and indeed Music courses. The competition for places at university for music is pretty intense as well. I cannot find figures for the Conservatoires but good alternatives like Birmingham and Manchester had in excess of 400 applicants for 60 places each last year so its pretty cutthroat from the outset!. Another aspect to this is the time involved, a degree at a Conservatoire is 4 years with the same degree at a regular univeristy 3years. The degree say from the RCM might have more cache on paper than from a university but will anyone care. With a 3 year degree you can also do the something like a PGCE straight away so after 4 years come out with 2 very marketable qualifications, just something else to confuse.....
I do not know many professional musicians - those that play for a really professional orchestra anyway, but I am a little suprised that the salary is so low that many have to teach as well. Several of her older friends have left this year to attend university with some studying Music at Trinity/RCM and Manchester, so it will be interesting to get their feedback on the course's. Another friend who was also an excellent musician went to study maths and has joined the university orchestra just because he enjoys playing.
I went to university and was quite shocked by the amount of people who gave up, primarily because they were on the wrong course. Too focussed on chasing the promise of money rather than doing what interested them and subjects they could focus on especially when the going got tough. In the end it will be her choice and my only real advice can be to talk to as many people as possible, visit universities and talk to the departments but in the end follow your heart - if that does not sound too cliched!.
many thanks for all the replies and advice. I certainly agree that a degree of any desription is something well worth having. We have discussed joint degree's before and a few universities offer them, notably Imperial and Royal Holloway, where uniquely you can tailor the degree to suit yourself - either 50/50 maths/music or with a 75/25 bias and both offer lessons at the music college if your considered good enough. Certainly something to keep in mind. At the moment she is just settling in to her A level timetable so we will see what she makes of the Maths/Further Maths and indeed Music courses. The competition for places at university for music is pretty intense as well. I cannot find figures for the Conservatoires but good alternatives like Birmingham and Manchester had in excess of 400 applicants for 60 places each last year so its pretty cutthroat from the outset!. Another aspect to this is the time involved, a degree at a Conservatoire is 4 years with the same degree at a regular univeristy 3years. The degree say from the RCM might have more cache on paper than from a university but will anyone care. With a 3 year degree you can also do the something like a PGCE straight away so after 4 years come out with 2 very marketable qualifications, just something else to confuse.....
I do not know many professional musicians - those that play for a really professional orchestra anyway, but I am a little suprised that the salary is so low that many have to teach as well. Several of her older friends have left this year to attend university with some studying Music at Trinity/RCM and Manchester, so it will be interesting to get their feedback on the course's. Another friend who was also an excellent musician went to study maths and has joined the university orchestra just because he enjoys playing.
I went to university and was quite shocked by the amount of people who gave up, primarily because they were on the wrong course. Too focussed on chasing the promise of money rather than doing what interested them and subjects they could focus on especially when the going got tough. In the end it will be her choice and my only real advice can be to talk to as many people as possible, visit universities and talk to the departments but in the end follow your heart - if that does not sound too cliched!.
I feel that sometimes parents really know best. Mine forced 2 of my brothers to study medicine at our local university, and although it's tough, they like it and seem to be working hard. Sometimes letting one's child study what he/she wants isn't too ideal, as they might not rough it out to the end, and drop out in the 2nd or 3rd year.
On the other hand, they might enjoy what they've chosen so much it's worth the fees and time.
On the other hand, they might enjoy what they've chosen so much it's worth the fees and time.
Hi there,
If she definitely wants to go down the performance route, music college would definitely be better. The reason the course is a year longer than other degree courses is because so much of the time is used for practising and playing in orchestras and ensembles; an extra year enables the musicians to come out with an extra year's worth of high-standard tuition and performance experience, hence why music college graduates get more work performing. I did music at university and my course was much more academically focussed, even though I took all the performance opportunities I could. Another option she could take is to do an undergrad degree at university and if she still wants to do performing, to do a postgrad at music college. Nearer the time, it might be worth her having a consultation leasson with a music college teacher who would give her an honest opinion of her playing and if it's worth her doing the course/getting into debt etc. or not.
Hope that helps!
If she definitely wants to go down the performance route, music college would definitely be better. The reason the course is a year longer than other degree courses is because so much of the time is used for practising and playing in orchestras and ensembles; an extra year enables the musicians to come out with an extra year's worth of high-standard tuition and performance experience, hence why music college graduates get more work performing. I did music at university and my course was much more academically focussed, even though I took all the performance opportunities I could. Another option she could take is to do an undergrad degree at university and if she still wants to do performing, to do a postgrad at music college. Nearer the time, it might be worth her having a consultation leasson with a music college teacher who would give her an honest opinion of her playing and if it's worth her doing the course/getting into debt etc. or not.
Hope that helps!
Yes, yes, yes. If music is your passion and you want it to be a career, you can get so much out of it at university. It was the best five years of my life, and while I had a fab time and did loads, I still regret a number of things I didn't do that I could have done.
I have a friend who went to Trinity, and was disappointed with the amount of tuition that she received. She once told me that if she had children who wanted to become professional musicians then she would advise them not to get music degrees, but rather practice full time whilst studying with private teachers (preferably one with a good name who also teaches in one of the London conservatoires).
temple01uk, have a look at this post on Careers in Music - there are links to a very comprehensive guide published by The Incorporated Society of Musicians as a PDF, and also links to some info on the BBC web site.
There's quite a lot about the ins-and-out of performing, particularly on the ISM link
There's quite a lot about the ins-and-out of performing, particularly on the ISM link
QUOTE(temple01uk @ Sep 14 2007, 12:49 AM)
The competition for places at university for music is pretty intense as well. I cannot find figures for the Conservatoires but good alternatives like Birmingham and Manchester had in excess of 400 applicants for 60 places each last year so its pretty cutthroat from the outset!
Whilst that is true, you must bear in mind that not all 400 applicants have Manchester (or another uni) as their first choice, or even second choice. Students now have 5 choices on their UCAS form instead of 6, but I know that when I applied 2 of my choices were just random universities. I knew I had no intention of going there. So even though many people apply, some won't meet the criteria and will be discarded and others may get an offer but won't accept it at all. Therefore in my opinion, it's not as hard as some people think if you're good enough.
QUOTE(temple01uk @ Sep 14 2007, 12:49 AM)
In the end it will be her choice and my only real advice can be to talk to as many people as possible, visit universities and talk to the departments but in the end follow your heart - if that does not sound too cliched!.
Sounds good to me!
Don't stop a child doing the course they want. They'll resent you for it.
I'm happy with where and what I did. My mother, when I was 13 want me to do sciences... well with the exception of chemistry, which would have probably resorted in my blowing up a lab, that would have been a stupid idea.
As a parent go with your childs strengths rather than try to get them to fulfil your ambitions, they will thank you for it in the long run.
I'm happy with where and what I did. My mother, when I was 13 want me to do sciences... well with the exception of chemistry, which would have probably resorted in my blowing up a lab, that would have been a stupid idea.
As a parent go with your childs strengths rather than try to get them to fulfil your ambitions, they will thank you for it in the long run.
As someone who read Music at Uni - then quit and did something entirely different - and is now back doing an MMus - I truly believe that you should go to University to study what you REALLY want to spend 3 years studying. It's your last opportunity to enjoy studying for the sake of it, without worrying about paying the bills etc. Unless you want to work in an area which requires a certain degree ie medicine or vetinary science etc, then I don't believe the subject really matters too much - most jobs that require graduates are looking for the skills you learnt at University - general skills rather than specific.
Your daughter needs to have a good think about what she wants to spend 3 years doing - if it's music - great - if it's maths/underwater basketweaving etc - then fine. Most Uni's have choirs/orchestras etc - she could research this in the careers centre, and pick a Uni which provides non music students with opportunities.
It's your last 3 years of unencumbered life!
Your daughter needs to have a good think about what she wants to spend 3 years doing - if it's music - great - if it's maths/underwater basketweaving etc - then fine. Most Uni's have choirs/orchestras etc - she could research this in the careers centre, and pick a Uni which provides non music students with opportunities.
It's your last 3 years of unencumbered life!
Couldn't agree more, yes yes yes, it is definitely worth it. And I say that despite the fact I'm in huge amounts of debt since leaving Uni that I will probably never pay off, and I'm not just talking the student loan!
That's one thing I have often thought though... if I were to redo it again I probably would have gone to Uni later when I could afford it, as my parents couldn't fund any of my time at Uni I relied a lot on top-up loans and overdrafts. That's one big thing to think about but I certainly wouldn't let it discourage your from going, and I'm sure the system has changed since I went.
If it's performance she's after, Music College is definitely the way to go. There are far more opportunities to perform and work with some of the best in the country. If it's an academic or all-round music education she wants, University is the place to go. She needs to have a good long think about what she wants to do and go from there.
Whichever institution she goes to, as long as she has her 'hand in all the pies' as it were; join music societies, set up ensembles, play in the orchestra/sing in the choir, she won't go far wrong.
I should add too, that I'm thinking of going back to studying for a Masters soon; I went to University and now I want to study at Music College. Just because you study at one kind of institution doesn't mean you can't study at the other at a later date.
That's one thing I have often thought though... if I were to redo it again I probably would have gone to Uni later when I could afford it, as my parents couldn't fund any of my time at Uni I relied a lot on top-up loans and overdrafts. That's one big thing to think about but I certainly wouldn't let it discourage your from going, and I'm sure the system has changed since I went.
If it's performance she's after, Music College is definitely the way to go. There are far more opportunities to perform and work with some of the best in the country. If it's an academic or all-round music education she wants, University is the place to go. She needs to have a good long think about what she wants to do and go from there.
Whichever institution she goes to, as long as she has her 'hand in all the pies' as it were; join music societies, set up ensembles, play in the orchestra/sing in the choir, she won't go far wrong.
I should add too, that I'm thinking of going back to studying for a Masters soon; I went to University and now I want to study at Music College. Just because you study at one kind of institution doesn't mean you can't study at the other at a later date.
My son is in a similar position, being talented at Maths and Music, except that he's never really had the confidence to consider a career as a performer, but is really enjoying A level music and the school/ city opportunities for ensembles, singing etc. He has (with I think just a faint twinge of regret) decided to apply for Maths degrees, but choosing universities where there will be the maximum opportunities to be involved in music-making as well. Thus he will be following my example, having done a Maths degree myself 20+ years ago but kept up playing in local orchestras (I was in the Hertford SO once too!) and choirs, and of course nagging (and accompanying) the children to do their piano/trumpet/violin/bassoon practice!
Maths is of course a very useful degree to have - but she should really enjoy that too, if she's to study for another 3 years. Has she taken part in the Maths Challenges through school? Does she enjoy the "thrill" of a good mathematical puzzle? Look at career options for Maths-based degrees - we're not all accountants by any means! A level is a big leap from GCSE, especially with Further Maths, so it may be that although she is good at Maths it isn't really a passion. However to do music (as a performer rather than as an academic study in the same way as English) that would also have to be a passion - hours practising etc. Professional orchestral players I've met do seem to be scarily talented - I have G8 violin myself but know I would never have had the dedication to come anywhere close to the standard needed for even the back desk of the 2nd violins.....
I don't envy anyone having to make these decisions which seem so final. However another personal example: one of my brothers decided after science-based A levels that he really wanted to study music : took another year off to take Music A level: spent a year at Music college to discover that performance (in his case singing) was really too competitive and then moved to study Electronic Engineering which has proved the basis of an interesting career (often involving hi-tech recording equipment) but with time for a very good amateur choir who tour, make recordings etc.
So if she really wants to give it a go it's not an irrevocable decision - maths/statistics/ economics/ basket-weaving or whatever will still be there. You probably need to introduce her to a lot of people from different walks of life who may have various opinions, help her to see the pros & cons and support her whatever she decides. If she can't bear not to give it a go, then she should apply to the music colleges and see what happens....
Maths is of course a very useful degree to have - but she should really enjoy that too, if she's to study for another 3 years. Has she taken part in the Maths Challenges through school? Does she enjoy the "thrill" of a good mathematical puzzle? Look at career options for Maths-based degrees - we're not all accountants by any means! A level is a big leap from GCSE, especially with Further Maths, so it may be that although she is good at Maths it isn't really a passion. However to do music (as a performer rather than as an academic study in the same way as English) that would also have to be a passion - hours practising etc. Professional orchestral players I've met do seem to be scarily talented - I have G8 violin myself but know I would never have had the dedication to come anywhere close to the standard needed for even the back desk of the 2nd violins.....
I don't envy anyone having to make these decisions which seem so final. However another personal example: one of my brothers decided after science-based A levels that he really wanted to study music : took another year off to take Music A level: spent a year at Music college to discover that performance (in his case singing) was really too competitive and then moved to study Electronic Engineering which has proved the basis of an interesting career (often involving hi-tech recording equipment) but with time for a very good amateur choir who tour, make recordings etc.
So if she really wants to give it a go it's not an irrevocable decision - maths/statistics/ economics/ basket-weaving or whatever will still be there. You probably need to introduce her to a lot of people from different walks of life who may have various opinions, help her to see the pros & cons and support her whatever she decides. If she can't bear not to give it a go, then she should apply to the music colleges and see what happens....
Hi Temple 01,
Your daughter could do both! A school friend of my daughter's has just finished a phyics degree at Imperial and is off to Paris this year to study cello at a conservatoire!
I definitely think that if your daughter wants to pursue a career in music, then she should go for it. It's good that she has realised how competitive her ideal career would be, and but I think that this should not put her off. It sounds to me like she's quite good, and very dedicated, so there's no reason why she couldn't make that 10%.
But if she wants to play safe, then perhaps it could be good idea to do a joint degree at university - maybe music with maths? That way she can aim to get a career from the music degree, but also has the maths to fall back on.
I wish her well for her future
Laura
But if she wants to play safe, then perhaps it could be good idea to do a joint degree at university - maybe music with maths? That way she can aim to get a career from the music degree, but also has the maths to fall back on.
I wish her well for her future
Laura
There's always teaching to 'fall back' on. After all, don't many performers top up their regular income with teaching??
In order to avoid debt though, or at least too much of it (and no-one really should get in over their head and not be able to pay back, that is NO way to live!), the student can get some part-time work suring term-time, do some holiday work, make a start on instrumental teaching and stay away from the type of people who feel it necessary to go out almost every night spending a small fortune on drinking in order to 'get the most out of uni'. I went through uni and graduated without a penny of debt. Admittedly, that was in 2000, before fees and when there were small grants available, but I firmly believe that a lot of debt can be avoided by a little common sense!
OK, I'll get off my soapbox now, but as I work at the local uni teaching etc, I see a lot.....
In order to avoid debt though, or at least too much of it (and no-one really should get in over their head and not be able to pay back, that is NO way to live!), the student can get some part-time work suring term-time, do some holiday work, make a start on instrumental teaching and stay away from the type of people who feel it necessary to go out almost every night spending a small fortune on drinking in order to 'get the most out of uni'. I went through uni and graduated without a penny of debt. Admittedly, that was in 2000, before fees and when there were small grants available, but I firmly believe that a lot of debt can be avoided by a little common sense!
OK, I'll get off my soapbox now, but as I work at the local uni teaching etc, I see a lot.....
I went to Royal Holloway and did Music and Psychology, followed by a PGCE elsewhere. The degree was great! Lots of people in the department went into music careers and lots didn't. I knew I wasn't going to be a professional performer as I am too injured, but have always wanted to teach woodwind and compose. My courses helped me to fulfil those ambitions but they would not have been a waste of time if I'd decided to do something else instead.
When I applied, there were 450 applicants and the yearly intake was 50-60 but I think most courses are like that. Probably half of those applications would be instantly rejected and a further proportion of applicants have no intention of taking up the place.
When I applied, there were 450 applicants and the yearly intake was 50-60 but I think most courses are like that. Probably half of those applications would be instantly rejected and a further proportion of applicants have no intention of taking up the place.
QUOTE(elliewelly @ Sep 28 2007, 11:46 PM)
I knew I wasn't going to be a professional performer as I am too injured,
Poor you!QUOTE(dcmbarton @ Sep 29 2007, 05:31 PM)
I had a very unlucky experience of music at university. In retrospect, this was mostly due to my own lack of self-confidence, but was also fashioned by inaccuracies in the prospectus and associated material.
When I applied, I had Grade 6 Flute, which wasn't enough, though I was working toward Grade 7. I simply wasn't good enough to get into the top bracket of universities. I ended up having to write to each of my 4 choices (Canterbury Christ Church, Anglia Polytechnic, University College Chichester, and Bath Spa University College) individually to explain that I was working towards my Grade 7, and hoped to have my Grade 8 on arrival. All replied and said that was fine, and I was offered places at all 4.
By the time the September came, I had my Grade 7, but not Grade 8, but still enough in terms of A-Levels to get into Bath Spa which was my first choice. The problem apparent on arrival, was that not only were most of the other students at least Grade 8, many had also done the then Advanced Certificate. I had gone from probably the best musician in my grammar school, to being the worst at university. I wasn't allowed to be in any of the instrumental ensembles, as I wasn't good enough. Having done no singing exams, I couldn't be in the chamber choir or madrigal group, as I didn't have the bits of paper to prove my level. Choir was compulsory for everyone, but most people didn't want to do it. The only real performance opportunity I enjoyed was the Gamalan ensemble!
Suffice to say, I lasted till the end of November, and then pulled out. It just wasn't for me. Everything which I had enjoyed about music, and everything which I had been encouraged to do, was simply being sapped out of me. The actual teaching amounted to just 6 hours a week, plus a 1/2 hour flute lesson with a teacher who did little other than insinuate that I shouldn't really be there. We did no composing at all, and again, as I didn't have the piece of paper, I couldn't do a second study instrument (wich should have been singing or piano).
I should never have gone in the first place; it was a totally alien world to me. The universities should never have said the Grade 7 was enough, as it obviously wasn't. I don't discourage people from going, as for many, they have a great time, but I do encourage them to probe further than just what is in the prospectus. Similarly, I wouldn't encourage anyone to go to a univrersity which they haven't even visited which so many seem to do these days. I also say to people, that if they aren't Grade 8 in their principle instrument, then they will struggle; whatever the printed entry requirements say.
I kept in touch with a few people on the course, but never really made any friends there. As far as I am aware, none of them went into any kind of music-related career.
David
This sounds awful, David.
I went to Anglia, which was on the whole very good, although it was about 20 years ago. We had much more than 6 hours a week of lessons - if anything we had too much, which was my only complaint because I felt a bit overloaded. We had an hour a week 1st instrument & 1/2 hour 2nd. Most people had passed at least grade 8, but if they hadn't they were expected to take it in the 1st year. Grades were not needed for entry to orchestras or choirs - where it was competitive it was done by audition & instrumentalists took turns to play in the orchestra if there were too many flutes, for example.
We all had to audition to get a place, anyway - didn't you have to do that? I think this carried more weight than grades or diplomas, which I think is right as the college should make their own mind up, really. And there were some students from abroad who'd never had the chance to take grades, but it didn't seem to matter.
I certainly got a lot out of the course & many, if not most, of my fellow students are still working in music.
I would say go for one of the music academies if your long-term aim is performance and/or orchestral work. The universities are usually more academic-based and may not cover every aspect of performing. Visit the music departments and ask questions - most places will be more than happy to help you if you contact them.
I wanted to be a painter and begged to go to Art School but was categorically refused permission by my parents. I then applied to Uni to study music/english and also to the RSAMD and visited both. The University course was not what I was looking for but I was offered a place (after an audition) to study performance at the Scottish Academy. However, my parents were not happy and I deferred to them and went to a different University to study Architecture. I was completely miserable and only lasted two years. I later took a degree in English as a mature student and started work on a PhD before becoming a full-time painter due to the demand for my work. I wish I'd followed my instincts from school instead of wasting 20 years in a career wilderness. I now play music for pleasure and have great fun.
So it's a twisty road sometimes but I would go with the thought that you should follow your heart as far as you can - then you can never have regrets and can live knowing you tried your hardest. University degrees can lead to all sorts of opportunities that you can't imagine while you're still starting out.
I wanted to be a painter and begged to go to Art School but was categorically refused permission by my parents. I then applied to Uni to study music/english and also to the RSAMD and visited both. The University course was not what I was looking for but I was offered a place (after an audition) to study performance at the Scottish Academy. However, my parents were not happy and I deferred to them and went to a different University to study Architecture. I was completely miserable and only lasted two years. I later took a degree in English as a mature student and started work on a PhD before becoming a full-time painter due to the demand for my work. I wish I'd followed my instincts from school instead of wasting 20 years in a career wilderness. I now play music for pleasure and have great fun.
So it's a twisty road sometimes but I would go with the thought that you should follow your heart as far as you can - then you can never have regrets and can live knowing you tried your hardest. University degrees can lead to all sorts of opportunities that you can't imagine while you're still starting out.
QUOTE(bevpiano @ Sep 29 2007, 09:56 PM)
We all had to audition to get a place, anyway ...I think this carried more weight than grades or diplomas, which I think is right as the college should make their own mind up, really.
Yes, for every university I applied to there was at least one interview and one audition. Many got us to do aural, sight reading and a listening/ written exam too.
I think that David's experiences at university show how beneficial a gap year can be. Would you have got more out of the course if you had taken a gap year to really improve your standard of performance and to get a couple of grades under your belt too do you think David?
QUOTE(dcmbarton @ Sep 30 2007, 09:15 PM)
in terms of the actual university experience, it just wasn't 'me' at all, and that wouldn't have changed had I had a gap year or not.
Well, qualifications-wise, you don't seem to have suffered for it one bit. What a signature!
Looking them up to find out what they all are is an education in its own right .
What a lot of gowns and hoods to choose from.
.What a lot of gowns and hoods to choose from.
I've just read through this thread and just had to reply.
When I did A Levels I was always asked by my parents "where will studying music get you" and at the time I couldn't answer. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. In the end I decided not to go to university and went out to work and trained as a legal secretary (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz).
that was 1999
Eight years later I have just started my 2nd year doing a HND in Music Practice and it is the best thing I ever did. I'm not at a top university (and most of our modules are actually taught at the local FE college) but all the tutors have experience in the music industry either teaching, performing and even production and management.
The experience of tutors at universities (a lot of which have a lot of contacts in the music industry) is invaluable.
The problem I had when I was at school was finding a course that I liked. I didn't want to do the straight music degree which involved lots of history and theory which I hated. The best thing to do is to go to open days or look at websites for as many universities and colleges as possible to see what the courses entail and how they will suit your daughter. Also at open days ask questions about what experiences the tutors have etc.
But in answer to your question, yes it's definately worth it and I wish I had done it years ago!!!"
When I did A Levels I was always asked by my parents "where will studying music get you" and at the time I couldn't answer. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. In the end I decided not to go to university and went out to work and trained as a legal secretary (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz).
that was 1999
Eight years later I have just started my 2nd year doing a HND in Music Practice and it is the best thing I ever did. I'm not at a top university (and most of our modules are actually taught at the local FE college) but all the tutors have experience in the music industry either teaching, performing and even production and management.
The experience of tutors at universities (a lot of which have a lot of contacts in the music industry) is invaluable.
The problem I had when I was at school was finding a course that I liked. I didn't want to do the straight music degree which involved lots of history and theory which I hated. The best thing to do is to go to open days or look at websites for as many universities and colleges as possible to see what the courses entail and how they will suit your daughter. Also at open days ask questions about what experiences the tutors have etc.
But in answer to your question, yes it's definately worth it and I wish I had done it years ago!!!"
To the original poster - I appreciate your dilemma. My daughter who is very bright academically, and a talented musician has always wanted to study Music. She achieved excellent results in her Highers this year , enough to apply for most courses with the exception of Medicine and Vet. However , she still wants to do Music , and is awaiting audtion dates from Conservetoires. I have asked her in several different ways " is she sure?", which back fired on me ,as she thought I din't want her to do Music. I firmly believe if she is successful in getting into a conservetoire she will enjoy her course , if she ends up doing Accountancy/Law etc. she may not enjoy it. From a parents point of view the fact that she should know the outcome of her auditions before Christmas is great , because if all does not work out , she can still submit a UCAS application. As to her employment opportunities - that is 4 years away, and in todays economic climate what graduates are guaranteed employment? My advice is support your child , but allow them to make the decision - as it is their future. Too many kids go to University to study what their parents want them to do , and drop out , or change course.
Hope this helps
Hope this helps
I'm in the same position as the OPs daughter - I don't know whether to study music or maths. Its a tough one, but I think it is one that has to be made by the person who is doing the degree - 3 years can drag on forever if it isn't something you enjoy.
QUOTE
The universities should never have said the Grade 7 was enough, as it obviously wasn't. I don't discourage people from going, as for many, they have a great time, but I do encourage them to probe further than just what is in the prospectus. Similarly, I wouldn't encourage anyone to go to a univrersity which they haven't even visited which so many seem to do these days. I also say to people, that if they aren't Grade 8 in their principle instrument, then they will struggle; whatever the printed entry requirements say.
I was really interested to read your post, David, because IIRC you are about the same age or slightly younger than me but I applied to 'good' universities, getting 5 offers (Southampton, Surrey, Cardiff, Exeter and Royal Holloway) and I went along with Grade 6 first study, though was singing at a higher level than that by the time I went up. I am appalled that your university treated you as they did- there were plenty of music making opportunities where I went that were not just if you had a piece of paper to say you were good enough!
I think that if you fulfil the entry criteria and pass the audition, it's not a given that you'll struggle just because you don't have a piece of paper to prove your worth. I got a 2.1 even though I was horribly ill for 2 of the 3 years and learnt so much about myself and about music, although when I first went I suffered with major inferiority complex- but that went when I realised that although there were some musical geniuses, there were also people better and worse than me and I wasn't some bottom of the class person for every little thing; we all had something to offer.
Doing a degree in Music at university teaches you a lot more about life and more transferrable skills than just learnign to play better. Doing a non-related degree at a University with lots of extracurricular performing opportunities gives you a similar experience and you can do some amazing things. I woudl say if you are musical then choose somewhere that will allow you to do the things you love, even if you aren't doing a music degree, or you'll miss it terribly.
Hi,
Thought I'd add my two-penneth! I'm a piano teacher and always wanted to study music but I also had a practical voice in my head that knew that I wasn't good enough for concert pianist so I opted for the route of studying Music and Business (I actually ended up just studying music!). This gave me a good degree with an all round education.
My husband on the other hand went down the conservatoire route and went to RCM. He got a job straight from college as a number 4 violinist in a BBC orchestra. This is just to encourage you that it can happen. The salaries for a professional orchestra range from c.£20-30k (not including a leaders position).
I left university and went straight into a job in a music company before moving onto working with an orchestra and finally leaving to pursue teaching.
I just wanted to say that there are plenty of music related jobs out there and as someone else said it's still a degree. Your daughter should assess whether it's music performing or academia she prefers. If it's the former then most university degrees don't focus on performance so a conservatoire would be better. The second thing is that if she wants a career as an orchestral musician, she needs (if she hasn't done already) to get involved in playing in as many orchestras as possible -National Youth Orchestra, summer camps, county orchestras etc etc. That will ensure a good start to her career.
Hope this helps,
Thought I'd add my two-penneth! I'm a piano teacher and always wanted to study music but I also had a practical voice in my head that knew that I wasn't good enough for concert pianist so I opted for the route of studying Music and Business (I actually ended up just studying music!). This gave me a good degree with an all round education.
My husband on the other hand went down the conservatoire route and went to RCM. He got a job straight from college as a number 4 violinist in a BBC orchestra. This is just to encourage you that it can happen. The salaries for a professional orchestra range from c.£20-30k (not including a leaders position).
I left university and went straight into a job in a music company before moving onto working with an orchestra and finally leaving to pursue teaching.
I just wanted to say that there are plenty of music related jobs out there and as someone else said it's still a degree. Your daughter should assess whether it's music performing or academia she prefers. If it's the former then most university degrees don't focus on performance so a conservatoire would be better. The second thing is that if she wants a career as an orchestral musician, she needs (if she hasn't done already) to get involved in playing in as many orchestras as possible -National Youth Orchestra, summer camps, county orchestras etc etc. That will ensure a good start to her career.
Hope this helps,
QUOTE(Miss Ross @ Sep 13 2007, 11:52 AM)
. . . at the end of the day, it's a degree. Employers in most fields look upon a degree as a fabulous asset
They certainly do, and vocational degrees such as music even more so: Employers know that someone with a music degree has talent and the ability to strive for excellence and rightly value the combination
QUOTE(_rai_ @ Sep 16 2007, 05:08 PM)
I feel that sometimes parents really know best. Mine forced 2 of my brothers to study medicine at our local university, and although it's tough, they like it and seem to be working hard. Sometimes letting one's child study what he/she wants isn't too ideal, as they might not rough it out to the end, and drop out in the 2nd or 3rd year.
I had to read this several times before I could believe I had got it right: You seriously think it more likely that a student will drop out of a course they like than a course they don't? Especially a vocational course such as medicine or music? Are you insane?? Intuitively this must be wrong (unless of course you have counter-intuitive evidence to back up this outrageous claim in which case I would love to have a good look at the methodology and discover the mistake). We had 2 people in my year at medical school who passed their exams but didn't last the course: They were both there because of parental pressure, in both cases against their own desires and in one case clinically (and almost suicidally) depressed as a result. We also had 3 who had been to the RSM/RAM before coming to medical school. They still loved music but had decided to make it a high-performing hobby rather than a career and had found a vocation for medicine. Happier, more dedicated, more highly achieving and better organised people would be hard to find.
QUOTE(guilmant @ Sep 17 2007, 12:12 PM)
Yes, yes, yes. If music is your passion and you want it to be a career, you can get so much out of it at university.
QUOTE(sarah-flute @ Sep 17 2007, 07:33 PM)
QUOTE(temple01uk @ Sep 14 2007, 12:49 AM)
In the end it will be her choice and my only real advice can be to talk to as many people as possible, visit universities and talk to the departments but in the end follow your heart - if that does not sound too cliched!.
Sounds good to me!
If you want a career in music the statistics are against you but the only absolutely certain way of failing is not to try: Per adua ad astra and all that (latin scholars will no doubt put right any mistakes in that quote!)
QUOTE(Robodoc @ Oct 11 2007, 10:08 PM)
QUOTE(_rai_ @ Sep 16 2007, 05:08 PM)
Sometimes letting one's child study what he/she wants isn't too ideal, as they might not rough it out to the end, and drop out in the 2nd or 3rd year.
I had to read this several times before I could believe I had got it right:
Just catching up on this thread and must have missed that comment. The only thing I can add to robodoc's reply is that at university going age, they are not a child. I think that by this stage (if not earlier) it's time to start figuring out for yourself what you want to do with your life!
From a personal view, receiving my B.Mus. in '03 was the best thing I could do for me! I realize that it may not be 'it' for another, but as for myself, who is passionate about music and wanted to teach before I started studying, I knew it would be a great foundation of knowledge as a piano instructor. Plus, my confidence, technique, musicianship is much improved because of it - also helping in the private teaching department! It was worth it for me, because it is a tool I'll always carry around with me. It doesn't hurt, also, to have a 4 year degree on your resume!
Anyone considering studying music at a more scholarly level must discern if they can use it as a tool in their future. Unless of course, you're simply wealthy and looking for something to do, then just go for it!!
Anyone considering studying music at a more scholarly level must discern if they can use it as a tool in their future. Unless of course, you're simply wealthy and looking for something to do, then just go for it!!
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