I have dug myself into a hole offering group lessons - because I wanted to try them out I convinced a few people to give them a go and now I am committed to starting next week, and I don't know how much to charge - help!

Say I give a lesson to three kids, would I charge a third of my normal rate, or half of my normal rate or what????

Also any suggestions for activities would be good. The instrument is piano and they are all beginners.

I think the figure that I have seen is for 3 in a group you charge half your normal rate.

I know someone who teaches 3 in a group for piano in a school (and only 1 piano).
Don't know how he manages. Wouldn't fancy doing that myself.

QUOTE

I know someone who teaches 3 in a group for piano in a school (and only 1 piano).

Hi,

You might find it strange, but as you can see it is do-able. You get one child to postion him/herself near the top end, another in regular middle C position and the last near the bottom end. You thewn teach them that the note they will be playing is C - mosat children will not question you too much and will take what you say and learn it. I do think it is important to rotate the children you teach so they each get to play in the 'central' middle-c position.

In group teaching, if one or two of your pupils are struggling, get the able pupil to help, either through a demonsrtation or through some sort of 'broken' explaination, something the the other pupils might understand since it is coming from someone of the same age and mentality.

Mix up the playing of repertoire between solo and ensemble. For example, you could get each pupil to play one phrase of a four-phrase piece and then to play altogether in the last phrase, if you can understand what is meant.

QUOTE

Say I give a lesson to three kids, would I charge a third of my normal rate, or half of my normal rate or what????

The way I've seen this work before is that each child will pay about or just so slightly above a third of what you would charge a single pupil for the 'usual' amount of time.

Hope this helps. I'm embarking on larger group teaching this year of three to four children in a group.

RATES FOR GROUP LESSONS

Here's information I've used, which is from the Incorporated Society Of Musicians (ISM) which can also be found at www.ism.org in Information Sheet 02/13: Private Tuition: Rates (at least it was in the "from 1 Sept 2002" sheet, which says:

Shared lessons: Two pupils sharing a lesson should each pay two-thirds of the fee for individual tuition.

Group lessons: From groups of 3 to 4 pupils, the total fee received should amount to one-and-a-half times the individual tuition fee.

From groups of 5 to 6 pupils, the total fee received should amount to twice the individual tuition fee.

Hope that helps.

DomRUK

Thank you for the invaluable advice about rates. I will be thinking about activities now - there may be another keyboard in the room as well as the piano which could be useful.
Only thing I'm worried about now is whether it will get "competitive", ie will some kids worry if they are not as good as the other kids in the group? Any thoughts on how to address that? I already have some mums comparing their kids progress in the playground (even exam results!).

This depends on the age (and maturity/ mentality) of the children.

I've been taught in group lessons (although admittedly woodwind, with two clarinettists, me on flute, and one sax) and we never became competative, more we bonded and encouraged each other~ we were all around 10/11. Very young children might get caught in the me-me mentality (its my turn, its not fair, he's playing more than me!) but I dont think competativeness in a group is a bad thing~ it might even encourage more of that precious practise!

I guess some teacher with experiences from 'the other side' so to speak might see things differently though!

If they are so competitive and keen for their children to be better than the others then wouldn't (shouldn't?) they be paying for individual lessons?
The other potential problem is that one fails to keep up with the others.

QUOTE

The other potential problem is that one fails to keep up with the others.

This is where some may say that group teaching fails, but it is actually can be one of its advantages. Where one pupils lags behing the others you simply do not just carry on ignoring the struggling pupil, but at the same time not make the other pupils feel as if they are being hekd back. What you can do is to get the other pupils to help the struggling pupil, much like we saw in the triathlon in the Olympics, for while the triathlon is a each person for themselves, by having someone more able than the other with someone less able, the more able person can help to drive the struggling pupil in the right direction. In terms of group teaching, the more capable pupil can explain things in ways that you the teacher might not be able to do. At the same time, that pupil who is helping is not only getting the satisfaction of helping but is also reinforcing ideas and concepts that he or she has learnt, putting what they have learnt to the ultimate test. Obviously, there will come a point when those who find it harder than the others will have top be separated, but not in the initial stages of learning.

QUOTE

I dont think competativeness in a group is a bad thing~ it might even encourage more of that precious practise!

I too think this is a good aspect of group teaching similar to that of the triathlon scenario.

Up until last year, all my violin lessons were shared with at least one other person. I enjoyed having group lessons very much.
Good points
Someone to play duets, trios etc with.
If you're struggling with something, chances are someone else in the group is too and you can help each other.
New friends.

Not-so-good points
Sometimes it's hard for everyone to get individual attention.
If one person is absent, the work cannot progress until they return.

Overall, I think group lessons can be quite good, especially for beginners.

Its good to here from those on the other end of group lessons. I';m glad you enjoy your lessons . Anyone else with similar or conflicting views about group teaching?

I first tried out group lessons (on the piano) about 20 years ago. I knew plenty of peris who taught strings, wind etc in small groups but didn't know anyone who taught piano that way. In many ways it worked out well. I found that after a couple of terms the group needed to be split into two, and those who continued eventually needed individual lessons, but it can be a great way of starting off. One of my original group eventually went on to do grade 8, so it definitely worked for her!

I agree with Rainbow that group lessons are useful at the beginner stage, also where places are limited, as a way of giving more potential students the chance to learn. One or two may fall by the wayside - they would probably do so anyway - but you are left with a smaller, keen group.

The main problem is when you get a "notice-box" who wants the hog the limelight and doesn't see that everyone needs a fair turn. This needs tactful handling! But the feeling of group identity, co-operation and gentle competition are definite pluses. I found the lessons need careful planning.
Good luck with your group Farley Teacher.

Maggie

I know what you mean about the child who wants all the attention - I sit in on my son's group cello lessons and there is a girl like that. She always answers other people's questions and makes loud hum and hah noises when it is not her turn to play but then when it is her turn goes all "coy" and won't do it. The teacher tried lots of ways of dealing with it: ignoring (she won't be ignored!), giving her a task to do while others were playing (like conducting along or clapping the beat, but she makes it into a big show), getting her to play along while the others were doing "their" bit (then she said it was too difficult and made a drama out of that).

This drives me nuts as a parent because I can see my little boy patiently waiting his turn and ending up with about 2 useful minutes in a 30 minute lesson.

I am hoping I don't get one like that.....but I think what I would do is to lay some ground rules, such as if someone else is playing they should not be interrupted, and making sure that everyone gets a fair go at playing on their own as well as together. Also that if everyone is playing together we should all get to the end before talking!

The only time I have taught students beyond the absolute beginner stage on flute was when I did one term of peripatetic flute teaching as a "supply" teacher. One problem I came across which hasn't yet been mentioned was that in one of the groups there was a girl who really couldn't cope with being corrected in any way in front of the others.

As an exam accompanist I quite often play for students who have been learning in groups. I'm sure some of them have been "passengers" in their groups, somehow managing to hide the fact that they don't understand what they are doing. They have probably been more or less copying what either the teacher or the other students have done, but can't read rhythms independently or identify note values, don't understand how to count rests etc. I guess the bigger the group the bigger the challenge!

Personally I think that group lessons as the usual and only practice to teach music to children are a disgrace. Most parents can not know what a lie these lessons are. Everybody looses if they learn an instrument in group lessons only; everybody but the teacher of course, who charges half his hourly rate to 3 people to have a lesson: 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 1.5, so the teacher earns in 1 hour what he/she would be earning in 1 hour 1/2 of regular lessons!

Most teachers who teach groups do so for a music service and do not get paid more for teaching groups. The hourly rate is the same, individuals or groups. In an ideal world, an individual lesson of at least half an hour would be great but this would exclude most children from lessons especially in poorer schools. Where I work most children rent their instruments from music service and pay about £30 a term for lessons. It gives them a chance to learn, there is no way these kids would be able to afford private lessons, let alone buy an instrument!

I'd go with the ISM rates - although you do have to be careful once you get over two kids per lesson - that's my maximum. It depends where you live + how much you think is reasonable? Tricky business group lessons -

Try the ISM rates to start with! If it's too much then reduce the rates but if you get to a 3rd of your hourly rate or below watch out- once word gets round you may get alot more people wanting to do the same - more stress for you + no extra pay!! Plus you may suddenly lose alot of hours! (if they all go to group lessons at a 3rd of the rate you get less work!!!)
M

QUOTE (Hotair @ Sep 12 2004, 06:11 PM)

Most teachers who teach groups do so for a music service and do not get paid more for teaching groups. The hourly rate is the same, individuals or groups. In an ideal world, an individual lesson of at least half an hour would be great but this would exclude most children from lessons especially in poorer schools. Where I work most children rent their instruments from music service and pay about £30 a term for lessons. It gives them a chance to learn, there is no way these kids would be able to afford private lessons, let alone buy an instrument!

1. Poorer schools should get more funding for instruments and lessons; the fact that they have less money to spend on music does not make the situation right: if we, as teachers, do not strive for a better, not an ideal, world, who will?
2. Richer schools also use group lessons, just out of habit or laziness
3. By teaching children in a way that does not get them anywhere, you end up excluding everybody... killing music in the process.

QUOTE (DomRUK @ Aug 31 2004, 10:47 AM)

RATES FOR GROUP LESSONS Here's information I've used, which is from the Incorporated Society Of Musicians (ISM) which can also be found at www.ism.org in Information Sheet 02/13: Private Tuition: Rates (at least it was in the "from 1 Sept 2002" sheet, which says: Shared lessons: Two pupils sharing a lesson should each pay two-thirds of the fee for individual tuition. Group lessons: From groups of 3 to 4 pupils, the total fee received should amount to one-and-a-half times the individual tuition fee. From groups of 5 to 6 pupils, the total fee received should amount to twice the individual tuition fee. Hope that helps. DomRUK

By the way, here are the rates I was referring to.

QUOTE (Primavera @ Sep 17 2004, 10:09 AM)

3. By teaching children in a way that does not get them anywhere, you end up excluding everybody... killing music in the process.

I find that an unjustifiably harsh generalisation.

I'm anaccompanist working with exam candidates who include children taught only in groups. I can tell you that there are gifted teachers out there who are getting amazingly good results in less than ideal circumstances. The best teachers working with groups are excellent. The worst are a disgrace to the profession, as are the private teachers whose students drag from exam to exam without ever playing any music they have chosen themselves or positively enjoying the music they play. I consider that children are better off learning in a really well run group than learning one-to-one with a mediocre teacher, perhaps for years on end, and not even having any chance to interact with other children playing the same instrument.

For some time, until I got too busy, I was regularly reading contributions to the American String Teachers' Association mailing list (which IIRC I received in daily email digest form), and the different approach to group teaching in some schools that it revealed was a real eye-opener.

QUOTE

the different approach to group teaching in some schools that it revealed was a real eye-opener.

Can you elaborate on this - it sounds interesting?

I have done two group lessons now and they are much harder work than individual lessons. I think in individual lessons it is possible to almost sit back and let the pupil do all the work, whereas in a group lesson the teacher has to be very dynamic and pro-active, so you wouldn't find teachers doing this as an easy option!

QUOTE (Farley_Teacher @ Sep 17 2004, 03:55 PM)

QUOTE the different approach to group teaching in some schools that it revealed was a real eye-opener. Can you elaborate on this - it sounds interesting?

It's several years since I read any of it, but my recollection is that there were teachers running really big groups of assorted stringed instruments, with assistants. They met on a daily basis in schools. It sounded totally different from anything I had come across in the UK. When I was last reading it you didn't have to be a string teacher to join the mailing list. I've just had a look at their Web site <http://www..astaweb.com> and the only discussion groups mentioned seemed to be on line and for members only. I'll see if I can find out whether the emailing list is still functioning.