I tend to have quite a few adult beginners passing through, a lot of whom only stick at it a few weeks. I've just started another 2 in the last 2 weeks. With most of them I show them the geography of the piano and a couple of 5 finger exercises, then start on "Complete Piano Player Book 1" by Kenneth Baker, as it gets them playing proper tunes straight away. The majority of them can do the first book pretty easily, and I make up accompaniments to play underneath them. Also I teach them "Heart and Soul" and one or two other easy tunes by ear. But I'm finding it boring for myself, as it's not so easy to do little games/aural and things like I do with the kids that liven up the lessons. Anyone got any ideas?

Like the kids, all of my adult students are completely different, although the adults usually have quite a good idea of what they are aiming for, so it's good to find that out before deciding on any particular strategy.

One man has come to me in the past few months with the intention of surprising his family by being able to play "Silent Night" by Christmas! That's a pretty definite aim! So we're doing a few basics, and using simple Christmas tunes as a basis for getting to grips with the notes...no tutor book at all. Once he can play the simple versions hands together, we can "jazz it up" a bit in time for december by using soe improvising - chords/arppegios (have started him on those already) so he'll be able to lay a nice rendition that doesn't sound too simple, without neccessarily being able to sight read the entire score by then.

My hope is he'll stick at it beyond Christmas once he sees what he can do.

Another lady is interested in getting her grades so I've been working more on sight reading with her. I think the Michael Aaron series is the one she uses - that's quite good. I try to avoid the adult books that only use chords in the bass clef. In some cases, I've given adults beginner books geared for kids, like the John Thompson series. The music is just as valid, and they can just ignore the little monster pictures

One thing all my adults all have in common so far, is that they get very interested in the theory side of things. They want to know how all the scales relate to each other and usually ask good questions.

If you find any particular music they are interested in you can always look it up on the web for free versions, or make out simpler versions yourself if you have time.

Hope some of that is helpful and not just a ramble

I really look forward to the lessons with my older students.

Why do you find it boring? And do your students find it boring?

I am not a pianist and therefore cannot comment when it comes to piano teaching, but for string instruments (and woodwind), there's always duets, even if the student is a complete beginner with only two or three lessons under their belt.

Duets are really good for making lessons fun and also breaking down the adult students 'worry barriers'. Additionally, they get the opportunity to hear/see their teacher making mistakes too. Once they understand we too don't play like a CD recording, playing wrong notes never seems quite so terrible.

Thanks for all your replies. Not all my adults do know what they're aiming for though. I always ask them this at the beginning.The 2 who've just started have said "I just want to play." and when asked what sort of music, they said "any". If they stick at it and I get to know them better, I'm sure it will become less boring for me.

Yes, but that's only if they stick at it....

If the lessons are boring for you, there's every chance that your new students are picking up on that, at a time when you should be full of enthusiasm and encouragement!

When I started the oboe, the only reason I gave was that I had wanted to play the oboe since I was seven, had played piano, violin, recorder, flute and guitar but had never got the chance to learn the oboe.

My teacher didn't ask me what I wanted to play at the first lesson - he just asked me to buy a tutor book - but if he had done so, I'm not sure what I would have said. I would have felt it was presumptuous of me to say that I wanted to play the Marcello oboe concerto when I didn't even have enough stamina to play "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" all the way through.

Hi,

I am using Piano Time Classics with my adult student. It contains arranged versions of well-known melodies which she likes it very much. I think adults students are motivated to learn tunes that they are familiar with. Perhaps you can try it? I also encourage my student to bring music that she wants to learn to class as well and find suitable arrangements for her. Maybe you could try spending time talking to your students about their tastes of music and aspects of tone production( like dynamics, touch and pedal) ? My adult student enjoys discussing these and finds them very interesting. Hope this helps

The inital stage of learning is harder, I recall my student being bored for a period of time with her first book (Piano Time 1) too..

It's quite possible that someone could have very little idea of the repertoire of the instrument, but just like its sound/want to play it. I know when I started the violin aged 7 I had no idea of the repertoire and just wanted to play it... ditto piano aged 10... when I started the viola I thought it would be kind of useful and I wouldn't have to have an E string... when I started singing I knew very little rep and just knew that my singing voice wasn't as good as I would like... and so on.

Some instruments I started because I wanted to play something particular (For flute I think it was Annie's Song!! ) but I don't think it's that unusual or especially a bad thing to just want to play an instrument. & as kerioboe has pointed out, even if one DOES have a specific reason, one might very well be too shy/intimidated/unsure to admit one's ambition of some complex piece to the teacher first off.

I can think of at least one friend who really wants to learn piano, he has very little idea of the available repertoire, but he knows he likes the sound of the instrument. Just because he isn't able to say "My ambition is to play X Y and Z" is not a bad thing if he's willing to be guided by a good teacher.

I've only just started flute lessons (at 47!). My teacher hasn't asked what I want to play and if she had I couldn't have answered (the way I could on the piano) as I simply don't know enough about the potential flute repertoire.

If she had asked me that question I would have said "I don't know - lets just learn to play it using the tutor book I bought with the flute as starters and then using the AB exam structure to move on from there. Oh yes, and what's this about Jazz flute?"

As for keeping it fun, what everyone else has said - if you're bored they will be: Spice it up for yourself and they will respond.

... actually I think for many adult beginners the question "What do you want to play?" may be rather scary - if they don't know the repertoire they may feel really stupid, and even if they do, they will often not have the faintest idea what is realistic or not and may feel afraid of the teacher laughing and saying "You must be joking, I can't even play that, don't be silly!" I realise most teachers are unlikely to say that but someone who's new to the whole music lessons thing may feel that it's a possible response!

Many adults are competent or even brilliant in one field, they may have all sorts of skills and business acumen or be able to repair a hip joint or sell coals in Newcastle or fix cars or whatever - to suddenly be a clueless beginner is unnerving enough anyway Some, I am sure, will be able to say "I want to learn this and that and one day such-and-such", but others will be looking to the teacher to suggest things until they gain confidence to feel they won't be suggesting something totally ridiculous! IMO as teachers part of our job is to guide students towards suitable pieces to learn. Hopefully that will be a two way process, but the proportions will surely vary wildly depending on the person learning and how much they know/how confident they are to make suggestions.

I don't really know what I get out of playing music. I just know I have always done it and that when I don't play I miss it. It is certainly not as simple as saying I want to learn particular parts of the repertoire. I am also unable to say why I like playing the piano and the oboe and why I dislike playing the violin (even though I like listening to it).


I maintain that I would have been unwilling to say what I would like to be able to play at my first lesson. Only after several months, when I felt I knew my teacher, better did I say that I liked baroque music and wasn't over keen on Mozart and I probably wouldn't even have said I didn't like Mozart if he hadn't first said he didn't like Wagner. Also, although I still do like baroque music, I also like a change from time to time.


I do think it is important, though, to explain why you are asking a student to do something they are reluctant to do.


It depends on how shy the student is. I think one of the reasons I like playing music is because it doesn't involve talking.

I certainly think so! It would never occur to me I was scaring a student by showing an interest in their musical tastes. Playing an instrument may not involve talking, but teaching it involves plenty.

The more information, however basic, I can get from a new pupil, the easier it is for me to tailor the lesson to suit them.

I think there's a difference between showing an interest in someone's tastes, and putting them on the spot with what they want to play. I would personally be asking "what do you like to listen to? what music for this instrument do you know? have you seen anyone playing this on TV?" sort of questions first off, as if the student had a burning desire to play a certain piece and they were confident enough to say so, that would grow out of that conversation. Put a shy student could very well be put off (and I know I have been in the past) by a teacher saying, "So what do you want to play, then?"


Well I disagree with some of yours, isn't that what the forum is for?


Yes they are all valid reasons, but the person who "heard someone else and liked the sounds" may well not have a clue what they want to play. Heck, you could hear a violin playing on an advert, fall in love with the sound, and have no idea what the piece was. Most of my instruments I started as a child, but the example is I still think relevant - for very few of them did I have much of a clue what I wanted to play, I just liked the sound it made. I don't see how it's such a leap to think an adult might be in the same situation... As I said, when I started singing it wasn't because "I desperately want to sing such-and-such a song", it was because I was aware that my voice didn't sound as good as I'd've liked it to.

Yes, most people starting to learn an instrument have an idea what they want to get out of it, but why does that mean they have to know what pieces they want to play?? And the idea of what they want to get out of it may be very vague or difficult to put into words as kerioboe has pointed out. Someone who just "heard it and liked the sound" is precisely the sort of person who I could imagine saying that they just wanted to play, and they would play any music. Not because they don't really care, but because they just want that sound to become part of them and will do anything to get there. (& also quite possibly because they simply don't know where to start, don't really know what music is available for the instrument, and really want some guidance!) Rob has also said in his post that he doesn't really have a clue what music is out there for the flute, and he is an intelligent articulate musician who already plays the piano. Doesn't automatically mean he doesn't really care about the flute. He's just honest enough to admit he doesn't know and is open enough to want to learn. That is IMO not a bad place to start!

(And the one instrument I can think of where I DID have a really definite aim - clarinet, because I wanted to play jazz and couldn't afford a sax - is also the instrument I have never got on with and never got far with. Those where I just had an ache to play that instrument because I loved the sound it made have been far more successful. Clarinet was also one of my late starts, as I was 17 or 18 when I bought it, so I was an adult who knew what I wanted to play. And didn't get on with it at all. Go figure.)


Well, I have been in that situation, and I have certainly found it scary, so... I have no objection at all to a teacher asking me if I liked things I was playing, or asking (when I knew them a bit better) "is there anything in particular you'd really like to learn?". But I would be miffed if a teacher assumed I didn't care just because I was a bit clueless about repertoire or too shy to say "I'd really like to learn X..."

I suspect different people work in different ways, but I know that I certainly need some time before I'm likely to say "I really want to play..."

Sure it can help a teacher if a student knows what they want to play, but I don't see that it's such a huge problem if they say "I'll play any music"


Not always, again, I have been the the situation of not having a clue what I wanted to do, and have been delighted when a teacher has made the effort to find things for me to learn. My piano teacher is a case in point: I think about 3 of the pieces I've ever done with him are my suggestions! He will always let me veto something if I really really hate it after a few weeks, unless he has a reason why I must stick at it, but basically my knowledge of the repertoire around my level is very scanty, and if he didn't suggest things then I'd be stuck. Plus, my confidence on the piano is very low, and there are a lot of pieces I have learned that, had I seen them in a book myself, I would have discarded as being too hard for me. (I only veto things if I've had a jolly good go at them, as I hate to admit defeat!)

(Flute I am the other way around and far more likely to say "I'd like to play this, I'd like to play that", but then I know the flute repertoire masses better and have known my flute teacher for over a decade.)

And as for "things I'd like to play" on the piano, I have no realy desire or talent to be good enough at the piano to play the famous pieces I know well. I know I'm never going to play the Rach 2! So yes, almost all the input for learning pieces comes from my teacher. So far over about 4 years I think I've vetoed about 4 pieces max. (And at least one of those was MY suggestion, that I then discovered was just too focused on my weak areas at a time when I wasn't well enough to cope with that) That doesn't by any stretch mean I complain about the pieces he gives me. far from it. I am delighted that he puts so much effort into finding appropriate music for me, and I practise, even though I'm a bit rubbish!


I've never said nor intended to imply that we should love every single piece we play. I have stuck with many pieces far beyond the time when (without lessons) I'd've stopped, because a teacher has told me that it will be good for me to learn it. It is precisely in cases like these that the teacher has the biggest input into what will be learned, and it's not a bad thing.


But this doesn't necessarily have any link at all with whether the person has wanted to play the piece (or any piece) in the first place or not.

Interesting discussion this! I have had a number of adult beginners over the years. They have all begun for a variety of reasons which became clear with time. One had just broken up from her husband so learning an instrument was part of her "finding herself" having become single again, several have started to encourage their children, others have recently moved country and are building a life for themselves here, with music as a part of it. I have just started playing the flute: I wanted to play from the age of 12 and can honestly say, with a few years of working as a musician behind me, its just because I like the flute! There is no major repertoire plan behind it, despite my music degree etc.

I really think people sometimes start just because they want to. Perhaps its something they wanted to do for years and the time to take the plunge has finally come. I find initially adult beginners need lots of praise and encouragement and for some, asking what their motivation is would be putting them on the spot. My tactic is generally to just let them at it for a while and when they have developed some skills and confidence and trust in me, I can ask them what it is they want to achieve (playing a favourite song or doing exams etc.)

I find with adults they usually will tell you when they are ready if there is something they really want to do.

I think the thing with some adults - many, in fact - is that they regret either not having had the chance when they were children, or not having practised more, and therefore giving it all up before they'd got very far. As with all regrets, however, sometimes this will be romantically induced, with memory being a little selective, and these will be the ones who will fall by the wayside fairly quickly. There are others, however, who have a genuine love of music and a desire to play it - but it may take the teacher a week or two to determine which category their new adult pupil falls into. And it might take the pupil a while to realise too! I don't know that it's fair to say that alarm bells should ring if somebody says thay don't know what their aim is, or if they don't know what type of music they like, though - the terms 'classical' and 'Romantic', for instance, may well mean nothing to someone who's musically uneducated. But they may well have simply made a connection of some sort with a few things that they have heard, and it's therefore up to the teacher to tune into this and build on it.

Interesting you should say that David.

Putting my 'adult learner' hat on, my main motivation for singing is simply because I want to, and it's good fun. I think a lot would depend on HOW they said 'I just want to play', and 'any'. If they seem enthusiastic and happy, and it is clear they're enjoying what they're doing, I wouldn't have any worry at all.

I've been thinking a bit more about this and wonder if it really is advisable to ask a total beginner what they would like to be able to play at their first lesson. To go back to piano (since this was what the initial poster was asking about), what do you reply to someone who has no prior musical experience and says they would like to play Chopin's Ballade N°1? That it might take a few years? That they will probably never be able to play it properly? And what do they then think when you produce a tutor book with separate hands and only a few notes in each? (When my younger daughter was about four she said she wanted to learn the piano but when I started trying to teach her with Tunes for Ten Fingers she burst into tears saying she wanted to play properly like me, not like Daddy who only uses one finger. When I first knew my partner he decided the piano was easy because you just had to press the keys and bought the first volume of Mikrocosmos for me to teach him. He gave up after a fortnight because he was too frustrated at not being able to co-ordinate the two hands).

And then when the pupils get better, do you offer them simplified versions of the pieces they want to play and if you do, is this what they really want? The only piece I have declined learning since I started the oboe three and a half years ago is the Marcello oboe concerto (the one I would love to be able to play) because, although my teacher thinks I could technically play it, I like it too much and don't want to play it until I have developed a vibrato which will do it justice.

That said, if offered a choice of pieces I will state my preference, I do say if I really like something and I occasionally bring in things I would like to learn. I do also ask for "boring" technical exercises - my teacher says I am the only one of his pupils who has ever asked to do them - simply because I feel that it is often a more efficent way of progressing to concentrate on one thing at a time even if they are at time mind-bendingly boring and have no musical interest whatsoever.

A teenager who started with me a year ago, in response to this question (It's in the gentle little intro questionnaire thing I give them in the first lesson) said - "Anything - really well"

I thought that was a great open answer to the question. We still talk about that goal when certain pieces are stagnating or whatever. It means I know one button to press when he's getting discouraged, and when he is listening to great performances - or even not so great ones like mine - we can think about it in another way, eg "What made you hear that as good playing?" etc

So I understand this adult's response. Could the poster of the original question turn it to a positive - e.g "It's great that you are so open minded about what you want to play! Let's listen to some great jazz/ baroque/ rock/ atonal music this week.... OK, do you want to play that? Do you want to play it that way? Why? Why not? What makes that great playing even if you don't want to ever hear that type of music again?" ETc...etc. You have started to teach someone who for whatever reason finds it difficult to describe what they like about music, especially with you who they probably see as an expert. And let's face it, it's a skill that takes quite some learning. But what a great opportunity to give them a whole new way of listening and responding to and sharing their thoughts and feelings about music. How could you ever deliver (or experience) a boring lesson, if that is what you are doing with them?!

Enjoy yourselves!
H

When I started singing I had no idea why... I wanted to be a good singer, but that's it... My teacher once asked me what I wanted to get out of it and I said "I want to be as good as I can". Not great answers, but I think since I enjoy singing so much I'm as dedicated as a person who went in with the idea that they were going to become a famous opera singer...

If she'd asked what I wanted to sing I wouldn't have known... I would've been embarrassed to say that I didn't know and I'd have probably said the first song that came into my head, whether I actually wanted to sing it or not... It is a scary question, at least to me.

Au contraire: On the flute it was very much a whim such as you describe for me: I was reading something on the forums about flutes and ebay and within an hour I was posting for advice on how to buy one, having never considered it before. Will I persevere? Who knows! I think so.

Interested to hear from david on this, as he seems to be the one with the most adults! Have you ever tried having adults in small groups? I used to put two of my adults back to back and allow the lessons to overlap by 15 minutes (with their approval, obviously) in order to play duets. Once I managed to stop them yakking (diplomatically, of course...) we all started really enjoying these sessions, and it gave them an extra incentive to practise as neither wanted to let themself down in front of the other.

Don't think anyone has said it should...

I couldn't answer that one now!
All I wanted (and still do) was to play the piano. That's extended to wanting to play better (an ever moving target) but I don't have a list of things I want to play.



This is how I was with piano and still am.

I hope that you don't mind a non-teacher contributing.
I started to learn the oboe as an adult because I'd always wanted to make that sound ever since my teenage years (when I was a bored clarinet player who really wanted to play the oboe....)
Now I have restarted learning after 13 years, and my goal is to be able to play respectably with other people, and make that oboe sound. That seems to satisfy my current teacher, so we are concentrating on making that sound...next step, vibrato! (and he has put me in touch with an adult learners orchestra as well)

I'd never have dared admit what I would like to achieve one day, simply because it seemed to unlikely and so impossible to get there - I want to perform a concerto, and only now am I getting to a level where I could do this (indeed, it's booked! Brandenburg 4 next April, down in Oxfordshire, or that neck of the woods anyway ). So when my teacher asked me that question, I only mentioned little areas of technique which I wanted to acquire - and by that stage I had learned a bit already. I can well imagine a completely new beginner being stumped by the question; how on earth are they to know what they might expect to reach for?
I do think a more realistic question is the one suggested already - what do you like to hear? This gives insight into the genres which might appeal most during the learning process, and possibly also help the teacher find stepping stones for broadening out the tastes of the pupil.

Another adult newbie chiming in, please don't be offended. I started violin three months ago. I have been in love with the violin since I was a child; however, my mother was in love with flute so I was stuck with flute. I'm 47, I have two fused discs in my neck (C5-C6), and have cut my left index finger in half three times, broken most of the bones in my left hand at one time or another, and none of it stops me although it does sometimes slow me down. My teacher has a couple of adult students, but I think they've all gone back to the violin after years of playing as a child. I think I am her first total newbie adult.

During our first lesson she asked me what I wanted to play. I said "eventually Canon in D." She asked where I expected to go in music. I explained it was for my personal pleasure only. I told her I expected to be dreadful for a couple of years, and I was willing to do the work to play well for someone only interested in entertaining themselves, with no delusions of performance or even bigger delusions of a career change.

I work very hard at violin for someone playing 3 months. I practice two hours a night. I practice 3 hours each day on Saturday and Sunday. One session works on measures, one works on whole pieces where I force myself to play on wrong notes or otherwise. After six weeks she threw out the books and started me on Canon. I think this was smart, for me anyway, because I am very, very slowly learning a beautiful piece of music, a significant piece of music (to me anyway.) Through learning this I am covering what would be in the first couple of books. I know when I am over my head and email or call her at once.

She is very honest with me and it really helped cement the trust and for me to see her as my ally in this passion for violin, and to avoid seeing her as a judge, or be worried about how inept I am. It's very hard to be a total newb at something at my age, it's way outside of my comfort zone. I had recently emailed a question about something or other, and had wondered if the scale would help build speed on Canon, and she answered:

"I think that working on the scales and arpeggios will help the Pachelbel. Other than that, I just have my usual response: some guilt at giving you music that is really hard for someone who hasn't played violin for very long! I am kind of navigating uncharted territory with you: you are so talented, and learn so quickly, and the rate at which you work is so different from that of most of my students. So I will make mistakes, and I worry about doing that. Please know that I'm trying to help you, even if I make those mistakes! "

I found that immensely reassuring, calming, and made me want to commit even farther to Canon and violin. Somehow her worry about mistakes made it okay for me to make mistakes. (I'm so physically tense in lessons you could use me as a I-Beam.) I also know Americans might be too frank for the (American) perceived British reserve, and that is especially true where I live where people just seem to live/act from their emotions and stoicism is some obscure ancient philosophy, but her being open with me has created a wonderful environment for learning.

What an interesting thread!

To some extent I agree with David in that there is normally a good reason why you choose a certain instrument and why you choose to play, be it subconscious or not. And if there is not a reason why you actually start- if it is really and truly a complete whim- then there must come a reason why you stick at it. You don't persevere on a whim.

Obviously, most beginners are not going to know repertoire though. I know that when I started piano, I wanted to be able to play music for my heart, beautiful, sad, emotional music, whatever the grade. When I started violin, it was different- I love the sound of the violin as a solo instrument and wanted to be able to reproduce that sound. Now, I am finding piano a lot harder because I can't play beautiful pieces, and the pieces that I can play, I can't play beautifully. Violin, on the other hand, is easier because- in my ears anyway- even an open D is a beautiful sound. (I don't know if that makes sense.)

So I suppose that whether or not you are going to have some idea of what you want to play depends on whether you are learning the instrument to make a beautiful sound or to play beautiful pieces...

Just to sum up what everyone else has said!


Btw webgecko- what is an I-Beam please?

What we in the UK would call an RSJ (rolled steel joist). Used in making buildings. There's a picture here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-beam

I'm coming into this discussion quite late, and haven't read further down, but I'm puzzled by this.
What's the difference between "I want to play", which you don't like in an earlier post,
and "I like the sound of it and want a go", which you do? To me, they mean the same.

Maybe the word "play" to you has connotations which it won't to a non-professional?
When I say, "I want to play", I certainly don't mean, I want to play
professionally/in a concert/dazzle my friends, or be seen to be player in some sense.
I simply mean the act of playing. I enjoy the act of pressing piano keys in sequence and
getting a fantastic sound out.

I see your point, but isn't going to the gym usually the means to an end? You go because you want to be thin/fit, not just for the enjoyment of doing the exercise. With singing, I stick at it just for the pure joy of singing - I don't sing in order to get somewhere else, singing itself is enough for me. I suppose "I want to enjoy myself" is a reason though.

I can see what you're saying dcmbarton, I'm just not that convinced that people are sufficiently articulate or self-aware to answer, or if they are, that the answer may be too private or personal to reveal, for example, that playing music takes them out of themselves.

I only teach adults (in my case, maths) and I think the reasons people give for studying maths at uni are mostly made up to satisfy the enquirer. Very few have a clear goal. Their long terms goals become clear, to themselves, in time. It may be to insure themselves against boredom, as maths is challenging, that they are no good at anything else, that they just love it and hope to stumble on a career with it later on that doesn't involve teaching or accountancy, which of course they find.

for the record, my teacher asked me what motivated me to learn piano (I had been self-learning for some time), had I heard someone play in a movie maybe? The reality: I bought a cheap keyboard for my husband, as he used to play and I thought he needed to do something else other than sit at a computer. When I got it home,I pulled something out of the piano stool, had a go, and......the husband never thereafter got in a moment on it. All I could say was that I just sat down and started to play. Is that a reason? I don't know.

I think I later told my teacher that "I wanted to come home from work and be soulful at the piano". I was joking, though.

You know those enormous steel beams used to build large buildings? They are thick steel, with two wings of steel perpendicular to them. If you look at them in cross-section they resemble the capital letter I, hence I-beams is what Americans call them.

That doesn't mean that 1) you can articulate it or 2) you know what you want to play on the instrument though.

(I agree that to stick with it there has to come some sort of reason - or at least I can't imagine someone getting really good "on a whim", though I'm willing to be proved wrong if anyone has done just that. But I don't think it's always there to start with.)


Just because someone is unable or unwilling to articulate the "why" to the teacher doesn't mean they don't have a reason, and doesn't mean they don't really care about their playing.

That's the only answer I've ever had about learning piano and still is.
I want to play as well as I'm able.
And I don't have any list of things or styles I'd like to play either.
My answer to "why?" is still "because I want to".
If it was a whim it's been a rather persistant one, I wanted to learn from when I was 10 and it was 4 years before I was able to.
Apart from the usual ups and downs I still feel the same.

Well I think I've probably only been asked once why I wanted to learn a particular instrument, and that was my one of my least successful teacher-student relationships; I just don't think it's hugely vital for a student or a teacher to necessarily know exactly what they want to get from lessons right from the start. Wanting to play the instrument is good enough for me.

Trust, respect and so on can't be demanded. In the first instance a measure of trust and respect can be given. IMO the level of trust and respect that enables one have a good learning relationship is earned. I trust my teachers because they have proved themselves worthy of my trust. I may have had to exercise some blind faith in the beginning, but it is because that has been justified that I trust them now. I suspect adults who are suddenly finding themselves total beginners in something after being used to being competent in important areas of their lives might find this more than others; I don't know but it seems likely to me.

Well, I think I've already said, one of the first things I'll ask is "so what made you decide on the piano?" or a similar question..."Do you have any family/friends who play?" "Is there any particular music you prefer?" etc...

To me that is just making conversation on someone's first day, and putting them at ease! Asking about any previous musical experience (very important as I don't want to just launch in and patronise them by telling them things they know already ), preferences, and anything that will help me gauge how best to start proceeding with their lesson.

I've never had anyone take exception to that, and most are more than willing to chat about it. Maybe it's all in the way you word things? It's all very informal.... I don't shine a light in their face or anything

(note: I put in the bold in the quote )

If the student is really unwilling, then yes, there will be a problem. Because it is then likely there will be a big gap between expectations. eg if the student fantasises about playing Beethoven concertos but is unwilling to say so, and the teacher is thinking along the lines of the student playing for family after sunday lunch or whatever.

I'm talking about unable, because the concepts needed to articulate the goal are not yet conscious. You will then be fobbed off with some "reason" that the student thinks that you will think is reasonable....and may then be stuck with this stupid reason that has nothing to do with the real reason and which becomes more and more inappropriate and obstructive. And all the while you are teaching in good faith towards a goal that isn't the real goal.

Does this make sense?

So anyway, if I then say, honestly, "I don't know why I want to play", will you dismiss me as a non-serious dabbler because there's no reason? In fact I practise heaps and heaps, as I find it totally absorbing and enjoyable, and I have made the progress that goes with that, but still I have no conscious goal related to achievement in music.

So maybe someone reading this thinks: AhHa! Life related goals! Such as, off the top of my head, relaxation/mental health/warding off mid-life crisis/recovering from mid-life crisis/warding off boredom/desperately bored with job or partner but can't say so/mental or personal development/warding off dementia in old age/proving something to X/gives a reason to avoid Y/etc etc, but there are many activities not just music that would achieve that. Are these goals for music?

And isn't assuming that these are the goals rather patronising?

Maybe after writing all this and thinking it through "out loud", I think the real reason I play is that: I am alive, and music expresses that. Is anything else really required than that?

Amen to that!

This is how I feel and always have since I was 10.
The trouble is that when you choose to do grade 5 theory because you can teachers tend to assume that you have your eyes on grade 6 practical.