I don't think you quite understand. I started the threads to do with Brian Davey on the teachers section of the forums. I did so because as a music teacher in the same county where he was convicted I knew several teachers who dealt with this man personally, and as a parent and teacher who used his books I wanted to guage opinion before changing the material which I used to teach the recorder.

How would people feel if an audlt was researching the effect of his relationship with Peter Pears affected the reception of Benjamin Britten's music had in the 1940s and 50s, wher a pair of open "queens" were actually breaking the law if they were "caught in the act"?

That would be a vaild topic to discuss if the person doing the research was for example exploring the context of the Britten seranade for Tenor, Horn and Strings, or the reception of Peter Grimes in 1945.

Personally If I was discussing this sort of topic within the general music forum, the last thing I would want was silly comments, however I would consider this forum as a place to gauge the opinion of musicians who may have also come across these issues. However it does come into the category of valid musicological research, and in an area that is currently in vogue.

This is the type of thing that I feel the people who want an adults only section are interested in. All of these issues are musically relevant, yet they cross boundaries which many feel should not be discussed "in front of the children", and like it or not legally until you get to 18, that is what you are.

WOW!!! Thank you!!!!!! I'm going to print this and frame it in gold!!!

You could put some flashing Christmas lights around it an' all Oh, I'm such an artist...

Now now Bobifier! Mind you I don't agree with Captivate Me. It is clear that BB is nort short of intellect, but emotionally still has a way to go. There are some issues which I feel uncomfortable discussing with him. Issues that are very relevant as a music teacher and parent.

The maturest kids are often (normally?) the ones that don't go around shouting about it...

The Brian Davey posts were in the teachers thread and some were locked while others were deleted outright. A lot of younger people do go into the teachers forum whether to ask about general advice or to see anything that might be relevant.



I'd go so far as to say they are the ones that don't go around shouting about it.

I go on the teacher's thread because it's interesting... I'm no teacher, I'm seventeen, so wouldn't qualify for an adults only thread.

Also I haven't seen any children get indignant (an idea that's been repeated by those in favour of an adult section). Other than BeamishBoy I haven't seen anybody under the age of 18 say anything more negative than "maybe".
Of course I haven't read all the posts...

True but the PM only really allow one to one discussion, if you're looking for a broad spectrum of opinion, as you probably want in BD-like cases then you won't get it unless you PM dozens of people with it. Others also wouldn't be able to become involved with the discussion etc. The musical friends one is also ok until you start looking into how little you would actually see them e.g. most teachers have lessons on in the evenings, weekends etc. You also have the same problem of getting a wide range of opinions.

It does seem that BB is the only one really opposed to it, who would be excluded from it. The only problem i can see with the poll in the other thread is there's no indication of who is voting yes/no/maybe, and not all the people who voted have expressed a view on a thread. Whether the predominant view among the adults is for or against can't be determined by the current poll.

Thanks for that slant jod. I hadn't thought of that aspect. It's true there are many issues that can pertain to an academic discussion or issues such as those that pertained to your recorder tutors that some parents may prefer their children not to encounter. On an open forum, where adults are discussing their professional interests/concerns these things are bound to crop up from time to time.

I'm not sure how monitoring it would work though, or indeed if it would be possible.

What issues are there that you'd be uncomfortable discussing with me? Issues that are relevant as a music teacher - I too have a music teacher. Issues that are relevant as a parent - I too have parents. So what's there to be uncomfortable about?

BeamishBoy, I have a brother who is only 2 months older than you. I was attacked last year and he still doesn't know about it. My parents felt it best to keep it from him, if only to stop him worrying about the same thing happening to him. Ok, so it's not to do with music per se, but there are issues out there which jod and other adult members feel it would be more appropriate to discuss with people who are not going to react badly. Issues such as paeodphilia are not seen as issues which should be thrown into conversation with people your, and my, age. We have a lot to learn. That's not to say that those in their 30s/40s know everything and can regard such issues with complete level-headedness, but for now, let us bow to their better judgement.

Please, do stop trying to prove yourself. I like some of your posts, and your blog is fascinating. You don't need to have people on your case all the time.

Hi Miss Ross,

I'm sorry to hear that you were attacked. If I had a sister and she'd been attacked, I'd like to be told so I could avenge her. I'd return two blows for every blow you received.

I hope you've recovered.

Here are smilies to keep you cheerful:

As usual BB it seems you have rather missed the point. If you read posts 49 and 52 you will see topics mentioned that some members would not feel comfortable discussing in front of younger members. The reason for this is because people of a certain age do not in most cases have sufficient life experience and/or emotional intelligence to understand or partake in the conversation. More to the point you are 12 years old and it is not appropriate for adults to discuss certain things in front of you, as we do not know what your parents do or don't want you to hear.

At the end of the day, you're a kid. You may not think so, but everyone else KNOWS so. And the fact that you keeping going on about it only serves to compound that impression.

I would like to add that I very much enjoy the points and posts made by many of the under 18 members. There are some very bright teenagers on here, whose opinions are always interesting to hear.




Hope you're ok Miss Ross. That was a very brave thing to put on the forum...as usual you have a very good way with words and a great sense of tact.

One of my issues was not so much discussing things in front of younger members, though I agree with jod on that too. My issue was the fact that threads go off on tangents - like this one (see last 4 or so posts - I rest my case!) This can mean that anyone actually interested in the actual debate will lose interest and not want to be bothered any more!

I didn't intend my example to drag the thread off topic - my apologies Dulciana. As it stands, I think you have a very valid argument for an adults only section.

Very well put.



"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" and in spite of your repeated references to your rugby prowess i doubt you would have much change if it were anybody above 14.

Therein lies the problem. What have we learned about discussing issues of violence with you?

[quote name='Miss Ross' date='Sep 24 2007, 06:18 PM' post='597653']
[/quote] I didn't intend my example to drag the thread off topic - my apologies Dulciana. As it stands, I think you have a very valid argument for an adults only section.
[/quote]
I think you had a very valid point to make there Miss Ross... worth making.
Your postings are always worth reading ~

Experiences shape our lives and our attitude towards others. The posts that I have been reading today add weight to that statement. Age does not equate to the maturity that comes with experience - although I should probably rephrase that as the learning that comes through experience (as some people clearly never do.....)

There is an overwhelming desire, as a mother, to shield my children as much as possible from the 'evils' of this world but I cannot be there for them all the time. My 7 year old daughter is a very fluent reader and will happily browse through any reading material that she can get her hands on. She read an advert for 'protection' (you know what I mean ) in a public toilet that I had to quickly gloss over! In the school playground they discuss topics that to me are very grown up. What can I do? The way I see things, my role is to provide support and guidance at this stage, and to encourage discussion/communication.

I'm not entirely certain why we need an adult forum here to discuss issues that we feel might be too 'sensitive' for the younger members of the forum. There are other forums already for these issues to be discussed in depth. I value the input that the younger members provide, some of whom have shown a maturity that belies their years.

This is my first (and only) post directed at BeamishBoy. You are clearly bright. However you are also clearly very immature otherwise you would have realised by now how your posts infuriate other forum members. From what you have described, you have lead a very sheltered upbringing in a part of the world where kids are wrapped up even more in cotton wool than they are here. You may think you are being 'clever' with your posts but, for your sake, please take a step back and just think about what you are gaining by your continued determination to be confrontational. Is it because you cannot answer back to your parents that you feel an incessant urge to post a comment that you know is going to be controversial? I won't be answering any of your posts (especially as they aim to rile) but hope that you have the insight to ask yourself these questions and sort through the issues yourself.

Enough rambling.....is there a party tonight?

Can you quote what post of mine is confrontational? I was only saying I would defend Miss Ross. Is that so bad?

Looney_tunes put things very well. It is not simply a case of one post. It is more the general tone. Now like Miss Ross I do find that you can make a really valuable contribution to the forum, and your blog is very interesting. However your reaction is precisely what us gently greying members of the forum are talking about. It would be better to bow out disgracefully rather than alienate the very people who found you interesting in the first place.

Your posts do tend to look a bit obstinent at times, and if not necessarily confrontational, then controversial. The main problems people may have had were to do with your imposing of your views on others, which was frankly unnecessary, and prejudice/stereotyping against certain groups. The confrontation probably comes across from your occasional dismissal of critics as being simply wrong and immature. You have not done so recently, and thus the reason for the reduced admonishment.

However, your comment about hitting an attacker back with twice the crime that was dealt is frowned upon, because the 'eye for an eye' mentality is just not the way things work here, as it leads to all sorts of blind justice. Which is the reason for recent remarks. While the intentions may have been good, the principles behind the idea is not right. There's nothing wrong if you provide a sound and reasoned comment - just think a bit about what you are posting before doing so. Your gut reaction and misunderstanding upon the thread about Nureyev and other areas of discussion stands as testament to why the issue of an Adults Only area is being discussed in the first place.

~Wobby~

Apologies to you too without having read beyond that post yet! I really honestly didn't mean to be personal - it was a general comment, and you've nothing to apologise for - you were responding to what went before, which is only natural!

So here we are in a discussion about the maturity or otherwise (again.... ) of Beamishboy!

I'm sorry - and this is going to sound atrocious, but I am FED up of this Beamishboy discussion.

BB - if you are truly as mature as you wish to be, then prove it. You are 13, the same age as I was last wednesday () and I don't intend to go about the forums declaring about how mature I am, because I am not, and if others feel I am mature for my age that is THEIR decision and opinion entirely, NOT my own. I don't feel your going to make any where near as many friends and acquaintances on here if you keep going on about your maturity, than if you stopped, and acted like a normal 13 year old, or just like yourself. Nobody's here to judge you, but I am beginning to if you won't forget it. I don't mean to be cruel, or harsh, but this is driving me mad... Sorry.

Now this thread was made for the benefits of an adults only section. Not for a discussion about BB's maturity. Any thoughts anyone?

But it's not always the under 18s who do this is it?
There are times when people much older than that divert threads and comment on things which are better left alone.

True.

Hi Beamish

Anyone born on 31st December 1994 is now 12 years, 8.8 months old.

Their brains are not yet fully formed.

“An adolescent's brain reaches the weight of an adult brain by about age fourteen due to myelin accumulation and dendritic branching. At this time the capacities for insight, judgment, inhibition, reasoning, and social conscience become possible. The adolescent's frontal lobes are increasingly active, and this ability enables the adolescent to consider several things in the mind while comparing or interrelating them.

“The density of synapses declines during adolescence due to selective pruning of redundant or unused connections. Most of the pruning takes place between ages ten and sixteen bringing the density of synapses to the adult level. The pruning process produces a more orderly circuitry in all parts of the cortex based on repeated experiences of early and middle childhood.

“Synapse formation continues despite ongoing pruning. The remaining dendrites continue to branch, grow, and form new synapses in response to new experiences. Continued psychological and cognitive development in adolescence is due to this dendritic growth. The prefrontal cortex responsible for reasoning and judgment continues to develop.”

Unless you are the victim of abnormal neurological development it is the case that you are still three or four years away from being able to understand, reason and judge as an adult. Of course, you cannot know that experientially because you only know what it’s like to be you. You know you’re a lot smarter now than when you were eight. You don’t appreciate how you could be any smarter when you are 16, but you will be, so you have to learn it academically. You mustn’t argue it or you’ll make yourself look foolish. You just have to learn it, swallow it, and get over it. You do not have an adult brain, yet. Fact. But don’t worry. It will come.

Enjoy being 12. You’ll be 22 and 42 soon enough. Don’t wish your life away.

‘Twas brillig!

barry

Well, somebody had to put the compelling biological argument down on paper! OK, that should be the end of that matter.


Anyway, would it be possible to make a list of For's and Against's to compare and contrast? If anyone wants to add further reasons onto the list, feel free to do so... (I would bullet point it all, but it is too late in the night for me to take the bother to do so )



For
It allows for an area where sensitive musically-related issues can be discussed. It should not create a division, as adults will not be confined to this area alone. The 18 age limit applies in most UK activities, and defines the legal transition from child to adult, and so the term for the section 'Adult' could follow suit. Under-18s may have the intellectual ability necessary, but this does not account for emotional development, nor sufficient experience in these issues to fully comprehend the issues at hand.


Against
Issues of such a sensitive nature requiring an Adult heading should not be discussed here in the first place. It will create a division in the forums - a kind of segregation between children and adults. There is not a strict definition upon the term of 'adult' - who is to make this decision? The intellectual capability of younger members may be supressed from engaging in appropriate discussions due to age restriction.

~Wobby~

I haven't been here all that long, but I have to say that some of the silliest posts I have seen were by adults, and some of the most sensible by teenagers (though not BB). I should add that it's a very long time since I was a teenager.

Hi,

an interesting topic, and I'm not sure which side I fall on yet.

I wonder though, if there was to be an "adult-only" forum, password protected and so on, would there be anything to stop somebody under 18 registering as sombody over 18? It would then be a little pointless, as anyone could take on a second identity - eventhough I assume it would be against forum rules, but how would anyone know unless they were caught?

fiddlechick

Maybe the username has to be a certain age as well before eligible, in addition to the associated user, and has a certain number of posts. Thus people couldn't register a second without a lot of hassle. Then I guess we/moderators could deduce from their posts whether they are lying. But they don't really stand to gain much if they have really put that much effort in to gaining access.

~Wobby~

Having an adults only section will not guarantee that threads stay on topic (I've been spying on you teachers ). Everyone is entitled to their views; not everyone might agree with them which in itself is a good thing as comments can be thought-provoking. It's when threads start getting personal that people become uncomfortable and start heading elsewhere - which applies more I've noticed with the 'adult' threads, some of which become unnecessarily aggressive.

Could I wave the olive branch and ask for amnesty on the 'maturity' discussion (guilty as charged myself - sorry Dulciana ). I hope that some of the (more reasoned) posts have provided food for thought - although only time will tell. Don't rush to grow up and become an 'adult'. It's a luxury to be looked after and not to have to worry about things such as money. You have the rest of your life to become independent so enjoy your youth (and all its wastefulness!) whilst you can.

Is my misunderstanding about Nureyev and homosexuality going to be used against me forever? How many people are there who understand homosexuality before they have even reached puberty?

Please BeamishBoy, look at the biological arguement and drop it... Actually everyone I know understood about homosexuality before puberty, and the children I babysit do as well.
Anyway, you are contradicting yourself using your age as an excuse for lack of understanding. You can't have it both ways - have your age ignored when you want, and then use it as an excuse when you want...

Wobby's arguements for and against are very well put. I didn't read the Nureyev thread. I admired him as a dancer and it was very sad the way he died as it has been with a lot of Aids related deaths. From what I have heard the way the thread ended was not pretty, and the actions of the moderators was well justified.

I too have learnt a lot from the younger members of this forum. I'm sorry BB, but there is just something about the way you express yourself that makes me uneasy tackling some of the more contraversial topics in front of you. Even the level of inuendo on OLTVA which my very much younger children read over my shoulder is something that I feel less comfortable with. I am a caring teacher and parent, and there are many of the younger members who I'm prepared to play agony aunt to. It is from that background that I make these criticisms. You are 12. Very articulate and on some topics extremely interesting, however I would take much more care in contributing to some of the threads that require a more adult level of understanding. Emotionally you are not there yet.

However there are a lot of the younger members who emotionally and intellectually are extremely wise for their years, and I appreciate all of your contributions, and as it is clear that you understand the issues involved I feel no discomfort in the level of candour I may use.

Here here!

What an interesting thread.

In the real world adults and kids mix mostly in structured environments; family, school, scouts and so on, where there are well-established hierarchies. Rarely do adults and kids hang-out together. Teenagers do their thing with other teenagers, and adults likewise. It is relatively unusual to find a social group that comprises a dozen teenagers two thirty-somethings and a pensioner, unless they are related. There are cross-generational 'friendships' here that would arouse deep suspicion in the real world.

Also, in the real world, adults know that kids have to find their boundaries and try to push them back. Adults, in the form of parents and teachers mostly, help establish those boundaries by resisting the push when it becomes excessive. They have the authority conferred on them by the social construct in which they operate (family, school, etc) to help them.

Here, there is no hierarchy, and no authority (other than the moderators). Adults and kids have equal standing and status, and have to find their own way of interacting without the familiar social structures and within only those set out in the snapshot above. Sometimes some adults behave childishly, in a way we never would (because we never could) in the real world and sometimes we irritate the kids with our crass efforts to be cool. Just because we've been kids before does not equip or qualify us to be kids again. And sometimes the kids mistake enthusiasm for experience and insist they have found a way to suck eggs their grandmother never thought of.

Well, frankly, what else does anyone expect? 99% of the time, it seems to me, this forum works without a hitch. When adults act like dorks the kids cope and when kids act up the adults cope. Most flare-ups happen when someone's pomposity is pricked (adult or kid).

In this environment there is no automatic respect of age or status. Adults cannot rely on the intellectual equivalent of "Do as I say." We are stripped of our authority. We write according to where we position ourselves on the 'popularity continuum' which ranges from, at one extreme, writing whatever is going to find most favour with most people regardless of how senseless it may be to, at the other extreme, writing what we hold to be true without fear or favour. In doing so we risk being talked down to by a kid, and there's little we can do about it.

In an Adults Only forum we wouldn't have to suffer being treated as peers by kids

This isn't the real world. I think the kids and adults mostly mix very well. An Adults Only forum would be great for those who need access to an environment where they can avoid having to deal with kids as equals but, personally, I wouldn't use it. I hope I never need somewhere special to go so that I can be a grown-up.

(Now everyone can hate this post for being po-faced )

Best wishes

barry

Please do not think I am picking on him. I hope the way I'm putting things is thought provoking rather than degrading... of course Beamish Boy should be the abatrator of that. I've welcomed him back, supported his need for more independence, and helped him with his biblical quiz. There has to be balance.

I'm a mum, and for some reason he brings out the mum in me. Now mums care but sometimes have to spit out home truths that are rather unpalatable. That is where I am coming from. Its a caring perspective. I do not want to see Beamish boy austricised from the forum in the same way that Mushroom was last year for doing very similar things. It is clear that Beamish Boy has a lot to offer, and I want to see more of that side than the "ooh arn't I mature"- promtly digs hole and falls in that tends to alienate other users.


BTW Barry, you're not being po faced, just honest.

As always Barry, your post has summed it up in a wise and balanced way.
I agree entirely with your sentiments.

I think I'm inclined to agree.
I wanted to see what others thought of the idea of 'closed threads' and threads which might bring down the good name of the board being continued in a more private place. I certainly didn't intend for the thread to take the direction that it has, and I think there is an overwhelming majority of opinion against the idea anyway. There is nothing to be gained from continuing the current argument in its present form.

at the thought of Barry as Mr T (think the A Team)

a very sensible post Barry.

no need for a separate section - just let's all get along together, pompous or not pompous, mature or immature..
"Forum forces" will rule if everyone is sensible, sensitive, considerate, polite etc... all the things People (of any age) should be

But how do we know BB is 12.

Do we care? Let's leave the discussion of an individual and talk about music and other stuff.

Hi Melody Amour,

I understand your doubt. It's quite common and frankly, I quite like it. Hehe. From your reading of my posts so far, please let me know your honest opinion how old I am. I've been thought of as anything from 20 to 50. If you are afraid of the backlash from the anti-BB campaign, you can send me an email. Go to my blog, click on any of my photos and you can see my email on the photo. My blog is at http://myownbildungsroman.blogspot.com/

I'm making a collection of people's views on how old I am to support my theory that there is no difference between a 12 year old and a 20 or 30 year old.

Thanks.

I'm leaving this subject and will not be making any more comments either here or in PM.

I've decided to leave this discussion. I joined in initially as I could see Dulciana had a point. Since then its become a BB witch hunt.

I've said all I intend to about that matter. Even though the majority of adults seem to be against it, I can see the merit of an adults only section. I've said what I need to about that too.

Like other posters, for the good of everyone on this forum, I feel it would be for the best if this thread was closed.

Hi jod,

I've never considered you a part of the anti-BB campaign. You are different from some of the people. You have a motherly instinct (a bit like my Mum, hehe) and you're certainly not motivated by malice. Thanks for your advice.

Anyway, I'd better leave this thread as everyone's suggested - to let it close down or something.

Yes, I agree - that is a red rag for some to read *because* they are titilated by something that's supposed to be off limits.