I wonder is there any argument in favour of an 'adults only' section of the forums? Not in order for it to be used for the discussion of 'inappropriate material', or to allow us to use words like 'the place where Satan comes from' , but to allow frank discussion between mature individuals, who are not easily offended by others' criticisms, and who would be able to say some things of a slightly more personal nature that we wouldn't want to say on the 'open internet' - it being at the discretion of the moderators who should be given the password for this area, once they had accrued a certain number of posts and seemed fairly level-headed? (By 'personal', incidentally, I don't mean 'risky'. And it would depend on every 'member' with the password knowing who else had the password.)

Hi,

I qualify for the adults only thread. Adults must mean the level of maturity. If you see the sort of criticisms I get including a thread asking if I was separated at birth from Pied Piper, you will have to accept that I'm far less touchy than most adults.

I've been through [the place where Satan comes from] and back and I surely qualify as an adult.

Thanks.

Adults also have a sense of perspective, I think BB you have a way to go on that particular journey...

I think it's a good idea... I mean I wouldn't qualify until next year assuming the cut off age is 18, but it sounds interesting... The only thing is there are very rarely problems with the younger members of the forums... it's just one or two... It would seem unfair to the more rational younger members.

Beamishboy, this is no criticism, and I'm sure you're intelligent - just take into account what I said about emotional maturity... Think of the things that age and experience teach you. You can't have it both ways, you can't be ignored when you say homophobic or sexist things because you're too young to know any better, and then still be considered an adult. Actually if you were an adult I think people would be far more harsh in their criticism of your behaviour.

Have to say, having read some of the comments and 'discussions' from time to time on the forums, between one would imagine, mature members, there are in my opinion some who really have a seriously short fuse! I have wondered whether perticular postings have been vetted on occasion. This is, after all, an open forum for now, isn't it?

But... is it really necessary to create an exclusive section? Can't we adults fall into line and just work with our younger counterparts? They might learn something from reading comments of a more experienced or mature perspective. Live and let live? Music is for all ages and I think we all have a good wee thing going here.

I've always wanted to use that one.

I'm all for it if you adults want a section of your own, I wouldn't qualify for another three years, (assuming like lucky cut off point would be 18) however, I do learn a lot from comments from people older than me on here!! A lot of advice I have been given has (im guessing) come from people older than me (i only know a few people on here younger than me!) and it has helped me soo much, with confidence and progression etc, so I would miss some of the advice I guess.
But anyways, I suppose this shows that maybe you adults need a place of your own since now three out six replies have come from people who aren't adults haha
x

I have this theory that the line between adulthood and childhood is an arbitrary border created by people who happen to have been born earlier. Scientifically, when a child reaches the age of 11 or 12, he has reached the pinnacle of his intelligence. He is able to gather knowledge as well as any adult. His powers of comprehension are no inferior to those of any adult. The only things he lacks are puberty and experience. Puberty is not important unless we are talking about marriage and matters like that. Then I agree a child can be excluded from these areas. But experience is an on-going process. We can't say a 12 year old who has 12 years of experience should be considered in a different light from an 18 year old who has 18 years of experience. What's the difference between 12 and 18? To fix adulthood at 18 is totally arbitrary and unfair. Why stop at 18? Why not 20 or 30 or 50?

The feminist movement shows us that for a long time, men were in control of everything. The movement has done a lot to correct this imbalance. We should now have a movement to draw attention to the fact that the world is in control by adults. They make the rules and we have to submit. As I have stated in the heading of my blog, I'm hoping to show the world this arbitrary rule against youngsters has to change. We've got to have a youngsterist movement. When the feminist movement started out, they were laughed at. So will be laughed at. But in the end, we shall overcome.

In that case, the adult thing to do would be to go and get a job now and keep yourself

You can't complain about being controlled by adults when you are dependant on them...

Of course I didn't mean it that way. I have no intention of running away from home or rebelling against my parents. I was speaking theoretically or should I say ideologically. At least scientifically, there is no difference between a 12 year old and an 18 year old just as there's no difference between a 30 year old and a 40 year old.

Actually there are numerous differences, many involving hormones etc but your parents/teachers can explain them to you.
There are also suggestions that there are changes in the way the brain itself works and various other factors.
Perhaps the biggest difference is that an 18 would stay true to his ideology whereas a 12 year old, despite being capable of expressing one, may not stay true to his convictions.
As to comparisons to the feminist movement when you jump in front of the King's horse then we may start taking your 'theory' seriously.

I've learnt an awful lot in the 4 years since I was 12. At the time I thought I was grown up and wouldn't change. Sure!! I'm now a lot more cynical and a lot less naive. I'm also much more concrete in my beliefs. That comes down to experience, something very hard to come by in most 12 year old lives... The reason why adults make rules is because they have been there, done that and discovered its not actually a good idea, so they tell us not to do it. Easy enough! Although the day when we actually listen...

Well, I see no problem with it... one year would be to go for me.

If you feel so mature BeamishBoy, it would still be equally acceptable to post a thread about an issue you find important and discuss it rationally within the non-adults section, providing it does not become over-heated (and that you can back up anything you say). I guess a watch would be required on keeping it fairly toned down though.

But you admitted yourself that you don't yet properly understand certain issues, which come with experience. There is a difference between Intelligence and Wisdom... The cut-off point is there for a reason, and was carefully thought out to apply to the average population. Things may be slightly different where you are, but as the main base is here in the UK, then everything applies to the UK norms. Personally, I think the gap between 12 to 18 is very significant - it is possible to be intellectually at a similar level, but the experience is not there - hence the comparison of Wisdom and Intelligence (but even then, it depends on what definition of Intelligence you are using).


~Wobby~

- there are so much things I've learnt just in the past year or so, which I wouldn't have even dreamt would happen to me one day.

Quite fun though...

If you go in for that kind of thing

Not quite so sure about puberty being fun, the end result on the other hand.

May I join MrB in agreement with that. I have taken time to read many of your postings and the "particular journey" that MrB suggests you take could be a long one!

Do we NEED an Adults Only section..........not that we would be short of things to discuss, but is the ABRSM Forum the place to do it? There's nothing I like more than a good adult to adult discussion about all subjects, but here?.........I wonder
It would require vigilance and restraint on all parts, and could be open to abuse of privilege from "infiltrators"

Perhaps rather than it being run by a cut off age it could be considered by someone, once they've been posting for a while and its known that they are sensible. Theres a world of difference between people of the same age.

I believe this is incorrect and that the maximum IQ (not corrected for age), is somewhere between 16 and 22. However, I can't track down a reference for this right now...

It's often said that IQ doesn't change with age, but this is because below the age of about 16 an age correction factor is applied.

[quote name='BeamishBoy' date='Sep 22 2007, 05:22 PM' post='595958']


In that case, the adult thing to do would be to go and get a job now and keep yourself

You can't complain about being controlled by adults when you are dependant on them...
[/quote]
Of course I didn't mean it that way. I have no intention of running away from home or rebelling against my parents. I was speaking theoretically or should I say ideologically. At least scientifically, there is no difference between a 12 year old and an 18 year old just as there's no difference between a 30 year old and a 40 year old.
[/quote]

Between 12 and 18 I'd say there is a big difference, although there are always exceptions!

The thing is, the proposed forum would be for adults - which would include people of all levels of "intelligence", provided they are adults. Being an intelligent child still does not not make one an adult - if you see what I mean?

Of course there are differences between a 30 year old and a 40 year old. How can you assert otherwise? If we consider the physical aspects or the emotional aspects there can be huge differences, depending on what has happened within the intervening 10 years. Can you explain your rationale for such a statement?

No, he can't. He's not old mature enough to know....

Although sadly not an adult myself, but a mature 14 year old, I think that this would be a really good idea, because I know what its like trying to talk with people and getting replies for immature people saying ___ when they dont know what the discussion is about, let alone the usually large words used in the conversation. Perhaps a seperate Forum with User moderators could be a good idea, and admit all users whom, since joining have had there age as 18+ and maybe Mature adoelescents can ask to join?

But to cut a long post, this is a good idea.

Hello_cello

I hope so! If at 28 I am not going to grow up or learn any more, life is going to get pretty dull!!!!

I don't think we need a 'grown-ups' section. It would seem to defeat the purpose of an open forum.

An adults section? I don't really appreciate the idea. Besides of being a bit elitist, I can imagine a lot of confusion around the excluded members, having them screaming all the time that they're all grown up and mature and have the right to be accepted in the group. But I do understand your need of serious discussions without inappropriate comments, I feel the same many times.

No - I can't see the need for one either. I don't like things which exclude a certain group. If people are grown up enough to read threads about music exams and instrumental teaching then they're old enough to join in. Anything else just shouldn't be on this site.

Yes I can explain. You see, you can't say someone who's 40 has more experiences than someone who's 30. Perhaps the 40 year old lives a humdrum life that is monotonously unvaried all the time. The 30 year old may be an Iraqi man who's been through Sadam's torture, then the US torture in Abu Ghraib and he's escaped but is now locked up in Guantanamo Bay. I'm giving an extreme example but I just want to show you that once a person reaches about 12, experiences don't really count for much. It depends on what experiences the individual has.

I don't think it'd work. I think it'd create too much of a divide in the forum.

The forum is here, in my opinion, to allow people to share opinions, regardless of age. I do agree that there are some that are not mature in their postings, and that posts from such users should be ignored - it's too far to just have an 'over 18' cut off age. What about those A level students who possibly have a much greater understanding than those older than themselves, and could share it?

If you want to do it, go ahead, but I think you're digging your own grave.

The phrase that immediately comes to my mind is 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'...

My sentiments are fairly close to Oddball's on this idea.

If the Adults Only section were to discuss music related topics I don't see why it would need to be adults only. If not, I don't see why it would be hosted on an ABRSM forum.

While the theory may be correct, the numbers are completely wrong. I knew nothing when I was twelve, and the majority of my experiences have been from the ages of about 13-16 (now). This isn't simply because my experiences worked out differently to those of others, as in your example, it was because these were certain experiences that I simply couldn't have had or understood at that age. Looking at it from the perspective of hindsight (which would be so much more useful if it didn't only come AFTER an event... ), I would say that when I was 13, I was very similar to you, and now that I am sixteen I can realise what a twonk I was!

Some of these statements are so unbelievably naiive it is hilarious. I can only say that 10 years down the line some of you (if you were able to retrieve your posts) would look back and shake your heads in disbelief that you could write some of this stuff! A teenager trying to lay down the law about perspective and experience is like a Catholic Priest trying to teach what one should do to have a loving marriage. Do it, experience it and then preach it, brother!

Yup. I've looked back and realised what a twonk I used to be more than once!

I don't think one ever stops learning, therefore by definition one is always looking back and seeing what an idiot one was! But you get (slightly!) less idiotic as you get older.

I was going to write a similar post but this one is more eloquent, so I'll just say

There were some people that disliked the idea of the Double Bar and the fact that it created a divide within the forum community. Surely this is very similar? I think that one of the nice things about the forums is that we do have a range or ages with different views, experiences etc. and I think that's a good thing. Maybe some adults feel differently and would like a place of their own, I don't know.

I've matured incredibly since I was twelve, and I hope I'll mature considerably between now and when I'm twenty two. Frankly a twelve year old is not emotionally equipped for adult situations.

Couldn't say it better myself. So I won't. Oddball's exactly right.

Yep, similar to the Double Bar and CISD...

Car Expert

You blatantly don't know what you're talking about!

So honest, and true of so many (and generally those who DON'T realise by 16 what a twonk (great word) they were at 13... it's probably because they've not matured a lot and are probably still twonks! )

Not quite sure I agree about creating a divide, but in essence you are right Oddball.
And Barry, "if it ain't broke.."

It's not a matter of age, but of attitude and maturity. And even that word is debatable but in my opinion for examples of mature posting look at the things Rosemary has written in this thread.

Youth is wasted on the young... but maybe not on all of them

I can't see the point of an extra Forum simply on the 'adult' basis. Look back, you'll find enough adults who don't show 'maturity' all the time, etc. Why can't we all just get along without 'talking up' or 'talking down' to anyone. Maturity, common sense etc will all show through anyway...

Actually, I think I was more of a 'twonk' at 16 than I was at 12.
I thought I was grown-up as soon as I hit 16, but I couldn't see what was right under my nose. The thing is that you can go through a lot at any age, but it's not what you go through that makes you an adult, it's how you deal with it, how you live it.

Anyway, I agree that an adults-only group would be exclusive. In theory it seems a good idea, but I don't see how it would work in practice. Who would do the inviting?

Well said

I'm not sure about the "Adults Only" Section, it seems to have created the sort of problems its supposed to eliminate

With regards to the intelligence vs. maturity argument, this is a crude example but has anyone seen or read 'Matilda'? Can't imagine her running the world!

So far I have seen a lot of adults thinking that a separate section is a good idea, and a lot of children getting indignant.

I like that the forums are democratic and allow everyone of all ages to contribute. I have read some really interesting things from younger members and rubbish from older members. This would continue I am sure if there was an adults only section.

Forget about how mature a 12 year old can be - they are still 12, emotionally and physically they have a lot to live through. Certainly here in England this is something that we base our society on. You can vote when you are 18, you can get married (without parental consent) when you are 18, you can buy alcohol when you are 18 etc...I'm sure this age limit wasn't just chosen on a whim. No matter how intelligent, worldly, well travelled, street savvy you are at 12 or 15, you are still a child, chemically your body isn't doing the same things as an adult and again, by law, you are not. I don't mean this as a put down to anyone, one person in particular might take offense to this (btw. I think the argument this person is making is one that has been made a million times before, and one that many people (with a blush ) wish they hadn't once they are a little bit older and wiser.) but it's just the way it is.

I think there are some things that parents and teachers see that they would prefer to only discuss with adults, that aren't appropriate for children to read and this is where an adults section would be useful.


***I realise grammar and punctuation have flown out the window for this post, and again I bet that someone younger than me could sort it out with a red pen but that's not the point!! I had too many things trying to get out of my brain too quickly to punctuate, was just typing as fast as my fingers would allow!***

There's a vast difference between being mature and appearing mature, in my view he's probably been doing neither. Its all very well being wordy but quite how much of it he understands and quite how much of other people's responses he understands/is willing to understand is debatable. Repeating the same points, many taken wholesale from sources with no understanding or ability to interpret them, ad infinitum and completely disregarding what others, many better informed/more experienced, are telling him is not the way to have a mature discussion or to be mature.

I can see why adults/more mature people would want somewhere less heavily moderated to discuss topics like Nureyev or BD, or even just things relevant to them but inappropriate for the main boards. However i don't see how it could be applied successfully in this kind of setting.

There have been times when, due to the nature of the topic ( often topic that are very musically relevant) that the discussion has crossed areas where it is clear that the moderators feel are not fit for young eyes. music teachers who are also paedophiles, dancers who die from aids due to their sexuality, are two that spring to mind.

Whereas I'm happy to discuss these matters and have a reasoned debate, I often feel uncomfortable knowing that there are legal minors reading this stuff when it gets down to the nitty gritty.


This is why I believe that some of the members born before 1989 would like an area where we can explore these matters without the risk of younger members coming across topics that they are not emotionally mature enough to deal with.

The moderators have, given the forums are for a general audience, closed such threads and even removed them all together. On another level this is a pity, because as an adult these issues do raise their ugly heads and adults need to discuss the impact these issues have on them in an atmosphere that is "not infront of the children".

I'm sorry if the younger members feel this is ageist or anti children - it is not, and perhaps when you get to your late twenties and thirties (at the earliest) you will appreciate why.

At present your main worries are centred around education. By the time you have a house, a mortgage and maybe a couple of kids your anxieties lie elsewhere. I thought I was a fairly mature 18 year old. It is only twenty years later that I realise how naiive I was, and how I still want to protect innocence where there is the abilty to do so.

Why would anyone want an adults only forum? I thought this was an ABRSM message board to discuss music. Whilst some of the people in the music world may have done undesirable things, is there any need to go into the nitty-gritty on the boards? There is a life away from these boards and people to talk to in the real world instead of creating a division on a music forum.