I'm beginning to wonder if this generation of kids (7-18) are finding it harder to read music than previous generations. I've been teaching violin and notation for a good many years now and don't remember so many kids having difficulty with it in the past.

I ask them what the problem is and they say things like: the lines go into a blur/one note looks the same as any other/I can't tell which line is which etc etc.

With violin all they have to do is learn 16 note positions and their names. Is that really so difficult?

G string - open string, A (1), B (2), C (3)
D string - open string, E (1), F#(2), G (3)
A string - open string, B (1), C#(2), D (3)
E string - open string F#(1) G#(2), A (3)

With just those notes they can play a massive amount of pieces!

Either more kids these days have learning difficulties than ever before, or they just don't practise enough because of everything else - other after-school activities, the Simpsons, computer games, you name it.

AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rant over.

I can only speak from my experience of younger kids. They seem a lot less focussed these days and, you are right, there are a lot of distractions. I have to remind my daughter to practice, do her schoolwork, pack her schoolbag etc

I think they're less independent and less self-disciplined than my generation. Having said that, they are more wrapped up in cotton-wool these days so it is not entirely their fault. They are more used to others making decisions for them and I think that reflects on their learning. I have to remind myself not to interfere in my daughter's homework for example and to allow her to get 'bored' so that she doesn't always rely on me for 'entertainment' (*go outside, read a book, do a puzzle, play with your sister etc*)

So in answer to your 'rant' it may be a reflection of society.......and the importance of music in relation to the myriad of other activities that kids have today. However there are a lot of youngsters on these forums that clearly enjoy music so don't completely lose hope!

I agree that it's probably because kids are so spoon-fed that they have difficulty actually sitting down and learning something on their own - and music is one of those things that, while parents can support up to a point, the child really has to take the time to learn the notes. I had a pupil recently (now, sadly, fallen by the wayside) who was so used to mum sitting beside her telling her all the notes as she went along, that she had no idea how to work them out herself, and actually sitting down and learning EGBDF seemed to be a preposterous suggestion.

Sorry - not very helpful, I'm afraid, but your rant rings bells!

As for The Simpsons, computer games, too many other activities, none of which require the same commitment - don't start me!

I've noticed the same thing recently with several pupils, it does seem to be more common. It could be because of the too-busy, spoonfed lifestyle many children are leading, but it's always worth having a chat with the parents, or the classroom teacher if it's at a school.

It could be that the pupil is having difficulty in learning to read text, too. There's obviously a relationship between reading text and reading music. I have a pupil who's just turned 7, she's finding reading the notes very easy and her sightreading (at an elementary level) is excellent. When I mentioned this to her mum, she told me that her daughter is a fluent reader, well above average for her age.

Similarly, I've had a pupil who finds reading the notes hard, he has mild dyslexia, although he has worked hard to overcome any problems.

It's worth spending time in each lesson simply learning the notes through a variety of games and activities. It may seem as though progress is slow, and you may have to explain to a parent what you're doing, but it will be worth it in the end.

I'll never forget, in the 1980s, when I used to do home visits, a mother asked me if I could change the lesson time for her eight year old daughter - reason - the lesson clashed with 'Neighbours' on TV!! She seemed to have no inkling that I would have to change the times of at least five other home visits to meet her request - can't remember the outcome - but she didn't last long. Perhaps things were not so different in those days after all! Having said that, many of the children I used to teach did seem to achieve a lot more than some of my present pupils and I had more theory pupils as well - which I love teaching.

A question for those of us who are, let's say, 40+.

How do you remember learning the notes yourself as a young pupil? I've been pondering this, and don't actually remember! But I certainly don't have any recollection of my teacher playing games with me. I'd say I was probably just told to 'go learn', and I probably did. Are we spending more time now 'playing games' than teachers did in the past?

I'm only 27 - sorry! All the same, I don't remember my piano teacher playing games with me at all... It was indeed a case of "learn this"

I guess it depends on whether the pupil is used to independantly learning something. Some need to be told how to learn it, while others just get on with it.

What Violina says about more kids having learning difficulties was interesting, as I've been reading a lot about dyslexia/dyspraxia on these threads. My theory is that these things just weren't diagnosed in the past...you were maybe just "a bit dim?" Now we have a name for all manner of learning difficulties, so that's why more people seem to have them? Could that be it?

Incidentally, how easy is it to tell whether someone has a learning difficulty, or is just not very good at a subject? I wonder if sometimes parents are too quick to rush to a doctor/psychologist simply because their child isn't as academic as the rest?

I think one of the first things I'd wonder if they said the lines were blurring and they couldn't tell one form another is whether they'd had an eye test.

I also think (and I've seen this in action) that some just actively choose not to learn the notes.
This is not easy to do and takes much more effort than learning them but it does happen.

I just learnt them and when I started piano after playing melody instruments I just learnt the bass clef between my first and second lesson. I wanted to play and that meant knowing this so I learnt it.

I'm in the 40 + age bracket, and remember my recorder teacher using flash cards for us to learn the notes. This was as part of a lesson where we had to read real music too.

I don't think there's a problem with using games and activities if it stimulates learning, children do a lot this way at school so the activities won't seem too alien. I agree that some can be told to 'go and learn it', but let's not have this as the only way possible.

It seems to me that both parents and teachers are far too ready to want to label their children these days. Dyslexia is the one given to describe kids who don’t particularly enjoy reading and writing all too often. I wonder if it is more often the case that many of these children have never been introduced to the fun of reading. Homes have far fewer books around these days and far more access to other types of entertainment.
When I was growing up we did not have a television. Instead we were encouraged to buy a children’s comic each week and as well as comic strips these would contain a letters page, things to make and to colour, crossword type games, word searches etc. If it was dry we played outside. If it was not we played inside and very often the games compendium would come out and we would play ludo, snakes and ladders, monopoly and so on. We played card games too and all of these things helped us with our reading and numbers skills. The point is that we were active during the evenings. We did not come home and flop in front of the television or a games console. We read far more widely I am sure. It would be a treat to go to the town library and Enid Blyton was a firm favourite. She had been banned from the school library and so of course we all wanted her books. Children should have their capacity to read and write awakened from a very early age. How many parents read story books with their children now? It is too easy to tell children that it will be time for their bed after such a programme on television has finished or when they have played one last game on their X box. This is rambling rather so I apologise now.
When we did eventually get a television we would sit down with the copy of Radio Times and choose as a family what to watch that evening. The set was not left on constantly.
When children are labelled as dyslexic or dyspraxiac or said to be suffering from adht or asbergers syndrome I wonder if the correct labels should be Lazy, Disinterested or Boys! I know that I will get a tirade of criticism now from others telling me that I am one of the old school who doesn’t understand but that is not true. When there is a genuine problem it needs to be addressed of course, but please don’t be so quick to label children with disorders that they may well not have.

I can remember how I learnt to read music. I was given a book and it was explained to me a little. Then I had some simple tunes to learn. I took the book home and read the parts about reading note names that were intended for pupils to study and I could name notes by the following lesson. I didn't always get them right but I knew how it was done.

Oddly enough I noticed this with two families I knew. In one all three children were dyslexic. But there were no books in the house, which even as a teenager I found bizarre since our house was full of them. They were being educated at home as well and I can remember thinking "What with? Where are the books?" The other lad was a friend of my brother and again, not a book in the house - and I'm not joking, not even a small shelf of fiction in his room, nothing! - and again, he was diagnosed dyslexic. But then how easy would reading be if you never did any? Which brings us back to practice again...

Banned from the school library? Really? Why?

[quote name='petrat' post='597283' date='Sep 24 2007, 11:31 AM']
Enid Blyton was a firm favourite. She had been banned from the school library and so of course we all wanted her books. [/quote]
Banned from the school library? Really? Why?
[/quote]

Probably better answered in the cafe. Follow me!

Just 22, but I remember how I learned the notes - I just did it! I respected my teacher, and did as I was asked...that doesn't happen half as much now.

Everything has to be "fun" and if it isn't it doesn't seem to get done - the little bit of work I did learning notes opened up so much more to me but that doesn't seem to register with most kids.

I am sick to the back teeth of intelligent kids - I say kids 12 or 13 year olds - not being able to recongnise 4 or 5 notes because they haven't looked at the music since last lesson.

Having said all this, I think games are a good way to learn, I tend to use them as a reward though, not as an automatic.

I think this 'everything has to be fun' thing is responsible for a lot of the current dumbing down in British society. Just the other day I saw a sign saying 'Fun Spanish for Kids!' Why not just 'Spanish for Kids'. Too boring?

In one of my string groups the piece the teenagers actually like best is the most challenging piece they play. They've worked and worked and worked at it and finally mastered it and it's given them a real sense of achievement. We under-estimate our students' willingness to learn at a price.

But on the other hand, so many of them still find it hard to read music! And don't want to make the effort either...

So I'm contradicting myself.

When I was a child, I had 2 teachers, my first teacher passed away when I was about grade 6. Both were fairly elderly and in both cases the idea of a fun treat was playing a duet together at the end of a lesson which I loved. I certainly wouldn't have expected to play games with either of them. In my case - I was told to learn my notes, so I duly did!

I think these days the discipline of learning is not the same. I remember at school reciting French and German verbs, whereas the courses these days seem to focus more on the conversational side (please correct me if I'm mistaken on this) I also remember a while back on the news them saying that 'schools are reintroducing the teaching of times tables' - Why would this ever be taken away? Learning anything 'by rote' these days seems to be wrong and boring so kids won't do it.

I'd also like to pick up on what Alder said about kids being diagnose dyslexic but there not being a single book in their house so how can they expect to read - I would like to hazard a guess that there is at least 1 television set and games machine. One of the things a teacher at my daughters school picks up on is the eye test thing. Now a regular eye test will pick up if there is anything mechanically wrong with the eye and its ability to send messages to the brain, but it does not check on the muscles operating the eye. This can cause a visual discrimination problem, so if for example child looks at black board (or whatever we are supposed to call it in a PC way) but when they then look down to write in their exercise book it takes the eye several seconds to refocus on the new distance, by which time their brain is confused and they have forgotten what they were supposed to write, so look back up at the board and the eye again takes time to refocus, consequently the eyes and the child get tired very quickly and can get despondant. This is something that most kids will grow out of as they get older as the muscles get stronger, but like going to the gym, you can train your eye muscles to work more effectively, and if they were encouraged to read more from an early age it may never be a problem in the first place. This site www.keithholland.co.uk is to one of my local opticians that can check on it. Interesting, many of the symptoms of this Visual Discrimination problem are similar to those of dyslexia, and I have heard many times from parents - they thought he might be dyslexic but when he was tested he was fine.

There is a huge emphasis in several of the local primary schools of 'learning through play'. Whilst in the early years this might be the optimal approach, I'm not sure that making lessons 'fun' throughout the remainder of schooling is a good thing - if anything it prepares kids poorly for life which, I'm afraid, is rather 'boring'......

Which gets me onto computer games. We've resisted getting Nintendo DS, Playstation etc for our daughter and are one of the last of a select set of parents to do so in her year group. They're antisocial, have very little educational content and hinder the development of imagination (computer games I mean - not parents! ). Make-believe formed a large part of my growing up (along with books) as we didn't have a decent TV set until I was in my teens (not that there was ever much on telly anyhow).

There are so many ways that kids can entertain themselves these days in isolation but I wonder whether in the long run this will do more harm than good.

(Happily my daughter is showing signs of being a good sight-reader - better to catch them young, ay?)

I remember learning because I really wanted to play tunes, and there wasn't anyone else around who could teach me, or who thought it was an important thing for a child to learn.
My own children, who have had an enormous amount of encouragement/ teaching/ opportunity etc cannot read music at all fluently, or write it out without looking up the notes- even though they have passed GCSE music. I have wondered how this is possible! I have also wondered if there is a kind of developmental window where learning to read music is easy, a bit like language learning maybe?
N

Like Sbhoa, I would suggest an eye-test. My daughter kept saying this to me and I couldn't understand why she couldn't tell them apart. Eventually I took her to have her eyes tested (mainly because she wanted the music stand closer and closer) and was quite shocked at how short-sighted she was. As soon as she got glasses she had no difficulty distinguishing lines from spaces and was reading music fluently in a very short space of time.

I agree with much of what has been said, but that's probably because I'm well into my 40s...

I do think learning to read music is much easier as a child - which is my excuse for not having made much progress with the alto clef since taking up the viola (I can work it out - but can't really read it). I could read the treble and bass before starting school (my mother was a music teacher).

I think many children these days expect instant results and become disheartened by not being able to do something perfectly at the first or second attempt. Some instruments are worse than others in this respect. It's hard to convince a child that she really is making good progress on the violin, for example, when she can hear perfectly well that she's making a hideous noise.

I also have little sympathy with all the various excuses that people have for not being able to do things these days (dyslexia, aspergers, hyperactivity etc). I think that some of the problems are caused by "lifestyle" (a term I hate, but can't think of anything better). As others have said, children are called dyslexic because they aren't encouraged to read and have no books at home, they are hyperactive because they eat rubbish and don't get any proper exercise to burn off their excess energy, and they have various autism disorders because families don't communicate at home and they learn no social skills.

This is a gross generalisation, I know, and of course some children genuinely have real problems with those things, and need special help. But I think they have become devalued because so many children now seem to have them. I gather there are real advantages to claiming particular problems - in terms of getting extra time in exams, extra help in school - or even in avoiding having to queue at theme parks etc - and of course it gives parents a perfect excuse when their children fail to do as well as they think they should.

Incidentally, about a year ago, I thought my younger daughter might have poor eyesight as she was struggling reading music when she was playing the cello (no problem when playing the piano - but the music is usually closer then). The optician said her eyesight was absolutely fine, but thought she was concentrating so hard that she was forgetting to blink!

That's actually quite a common occurence!

You don't instantly associate piano playing with breathing techniques, but I have one adult student my own age who always looked exhausted after a piece of sight reading until a while back. I studied her really closely and noticed that she really was hardly breathing at all! Like your daughter, she was just so focused on the music!

Once she was aware of it and actually thought about it, she was fine. No more huge sighs after finishing a piece! I'm just glad I didn't give her more than 8 bars to read or she may have passed out on me

A lot of things are taught parrot ashion in school now. German and Spanish GCSE was a case of 'here is this speaking, go away and learn it and you can write the same things down in your writing exam'. I hated it! English was a case of going through every poem and writing down what the teacher said about it. It doesn't help when suddenly confronted with something you are expected to work out for yourself, like playing an instrument. My first teacher (recorder) didn't aactually want me to learn the notes - it was my Dad, who was rather horrified when he saw letter names under every note, that taught me! For a while I was worse than everyone else in the class, then I got ahead with learning new tunes etc.

I can't believe people can live in houses with no books... It just doesn't seem right!! We have books all over the place. And newspapers too, something else which seems to be going out of fashion. I asked my friends what they thought about Northern Rock - they hadn't heard of it

Goodness!

I remember discussing poetry in English class so it wasn't a case of writing down someone elses opinion. It's a bit like music in that quite often there is no definite right or wrong answer... You should just be be well equipped to answer questions critically and be able to back up your own preferences, I think.

As to no books in the house.. I'd find that very strange! In defence of computer games though, I had an old Spectrum ZX (anyone remember?) when I was 9/10 and the only reason I can type so fast now is from spending ages putting in silly programs in BASIC that resulted in a stick man waving after all that effort

They have their uses, but everything in moderation. I wouldn't have been allowed to sit in front of it all day. I'm also a "Simpsons" fan and watch it every day at tea time... I was in p7 when The Simpsons came out (1991) and actually still consider it one of the best shows on, but really I watch very little telly in the evening or during the day Again though, it's a matter of making time to do the things you need to.

I was always able to do my practise as well, so enjoying computers/Simpsons was never a problem. I think it must just be the case that some kids do nothing else in between?

I always watch The Simpsons together with my children, but then the television gets turned off, as practice and homework has to be done. My sons are allowed to watch TV and play computer games in the early part of the evening when they come home from school, if they are not doing school sports activities.

Our house is full of books, but one son would far rather practise his instruments than read, and the other one would rather do sport. I do all the reading!

I think I was told to 'go learn' and just did. I found that quite easy, I had that learning style (nasty little swot I think it's called). I think teachers are probably getting a little bit better at responding to different learning styles now, across the board and not just in music, and that has to be a good thing. But I have just notived recently that some kids are still perfectly happy to be told right, thats' a C , it just is, and that's how you play it - and it is worth checking whether you've got one of those in the room before you start on the more imaginative stuff!

Learning to read music is a similar skill to learning to read words - would you expect a child to learn to read if they only had half an hour reading tuition a week and only maybe 10 minutes practice once or twice a week? Unlikely...
Plus there is little or no music reading in schools nowadays so children simply do not get enough exposure to it IMHO. I often find my best note readers are those that learn another instrument as well so they get double the input.

I have a few vague memories of learning to read music.

The first was when I was about 3, my mother cut out notes from a Weetabix packet and made a big stave. We kids used to place the notes on the stave and she would play the result.

I also remember my early violin lessons when I was just taught the notes and expect to remember them. I remember later on having those little white theory books (anyone else remember those) and eating them up.

I remember avidly going through my dad's recorder books and teaching myself to play.

I didn't learn bass clef till much later - I started playing piano at 14. I knew how the bass clef worked and how to figure out the notes but it took time to become fluent.

I don't remember not be able to read music. I learned to read and write music long before I learned to read and write English (which I can remember doing). How I learned, goodness knows. I also don't remember how I learned to speak!

Dyslexia is a genuine problem of eye coordination and stuff though. I don't know whether one could argue between cause and effect of not having books/being dyslexic, but true dyslexics aren't dyslexic because they don't want to know about reading - often they are desperate to be able to read, and try very hard.


True to an extent, but proper language teaching should include both. Reciting lists of verbs isn't much use without the conversational side of things.


Yes, I remember that as a child!!


I know I have a few American friends who supposedly have all sorts of problems, that would not be diagnosed on the symptoms they have in this country... it makes me slightly cynical when one considers that healthcare is private there, I wonder if the doctors are on to a good thing

I can only very vaguely remember learning to read music... I know that others in the same class struggled more, so maybe I was just lucky. I think we had a combination of "just jolly well learn it" and things to help, we used the Musicland books (when they were copies run out on the school copier, before they were published!) so Clara Caterpillar etc were all there to help.

I realise that Dyslexia is a complex condition and that there are children who really do struggle with it. What I had intended to write was that kids may be labeled as being dyslexic when the problem is simply that they don't work at reading and writing because they don't see the fun in it.
I have seen plenty of kids being labeled as unmusical for the same reason. Put the fun into it and they suddenly become musical and love it.

What makes me sad is kids who are clearly VERY musical, and who actually pick things up more quickly than most, but who give up because it requires more effort that they're used to putting into anything. And I'm afraid I do put this down to flashing screens and the like which give immediate gratification for the simple press of a button. How can a kid who clearly has a high IQ, an excellent sense of rhythm, great pitch awareness and good coordination end up throwing in the towel because he has 'poor concentration', according to parents and school teachers - when he can sit for hours with a Nintendo DS in his hand, concentrating hard? I think many children now are dependant on that 'instant gratification' thing, brought about by games that were originally bought to keep them quiet - literally, in the sense that it occupies them when parents are busy, and also in the sense that they come home with the story that they're the only one in the class without an X-box/Nintendo DS/Games Cube/whatever. I'm not blaming parents, exactly, as I've made all the mistakes that there are to be made myself as a parent - but it's how things are going, and it doesn't bode well for the future!

I said as much previously Dulciana and I agree that it is difficult when your child is the 'only one' without a Nintendo/Playstation etc.

I really have to badger my daughter to practice (she'd rather flop in front of the telly) and it is one of the reasons why I started re-learning piano and took up violin. It's much more fun to practice with someone else and it's easier to jolly her along when I'm doing the same. I sometimes make deliberate mistakes - one thing I've learnt is that kids love telling you when you are wrong... She'll then show me the right way and - hey presto! - I've managed to make her do what she swore was too difficult a minute earlier! (The psychological games we play..... ) Doesn't always work but is worth a shot now and then.

This made me think of a boy I have who is addicted to 'Animal Crossing'! But he has [low end of the spectrum] Tourette's syndrome, and finds it difficult to stay still and pay attention. For a while I just wasn't sure how he'd do, but he seems to have settled down in the last six weeks or so.
One thing that's interesting, he's very talkative, finds it really hard to just shush! except if you play him a piece of music. I played him a bit of 'Wagglestick' from the grade 7 list and he stood quite quiet and then said, "Wow...."

Sometimes you just need to find what impresses them!

That really rings a bell with me - tends to happen post Grade 3ish when it all starts to require a bit more effort...

Yes! My entire class, save me, did horrible in the modern novel exam this year - I was asked by my teacher how I'd got full marks when everyone else had got Es and Ds. I didn't know what to say because I know it's because the teacher tries to get everyone to learn the obvious symbolism and imagery, and then every exam question is about an obscure part of the novel - to test a student's independent thought!

I agree with you strongly enough that I didn't read the rest of this thread, I'll go back and do that now.

I remember having huge posters on the wall with music stave and notes for both treble and bass cleff with the acronyms underneath. My dad spent ages doing them for me and my sister. It was on the wall by my bed so was the first thing I saw in the morning, last thing at night. may be sad, but it worked! I have since done the same for my daughter and she has had no difficulty with reading music. I also had flashcards (again have done same for my daughter) which used to be a fun game!

I have encouraged my pupils to have flashcards and the ones that take it up actually do quite well.

I give out little posters like that on a pupil's first day with me, to colour in and stick on the wall. I don't know how many of them have theirs up but I know some do!

You will certainly not get a tirade from me petrat becaue I think to a large degree you are right. As you say there are exceptions but a lifetime's teaching of all age groups from toddlers to pensioners ha taught me to be a bit wary of these labels. In a way it's a shame because the genuine cases get swallowed up by the mass of those who don't really need all that much help.

What they do often need is quite simply a rich and stimulating evironment. I am currently involved in teaching very young cxhildren 2 days a week. I find them physically bigger than when I started teaching back in the sixties, but intellectually far less curious, and with far less ability to concentrate.

As far as children reading music is concerned I have had refusers in the past and have come to the conclusion that I simply haven't been tough enough with them. I have two currently refusing to read. One is a 12 year old girl and I have given her Piano Works and this seems to be helping. She is "starting again" but finds it quite different because of the CD. the other is an 8 year old boy and I have simply decided to spend all the lessons reading as many new little pieces at beginner level as possible. Continuous sight reading on a very limited and very slowly increasing number of notes. I'm waiting to see who will crack first - him or me!

'S funny. I generally have no problems teaching kids to read music. They can usually read simple notation with relative ease in no time at all. The problems begin when pieces start to get harder. Holding the students interest is the key. When they start too lose interest, the battle really begins. Maybe that is why I am confused by the student I have mentioned in my current thread 'Concentration'.

Not 40+, but I can't recall any note learning games in my childhood, so I guess I must've just been encouraged to just 'go learn' them.



This would be the first thing that would enter my head too.

My mum taught me EGBDF and FACE in the back of a taxi when I was 5, no games, just showed me the lines/spaces and told me what they were. Then, when I got to a piano a few years later I used them to work out where things started and read by pattern and interval, I still do

I often find with my pupils that grade 3+ is when they start to realise hard work is required and then there's another step at grade 6, if they get grade 6 then I have no worries about them getting to grade 8. Positive reinforcement is good but there's no harm in telling them they have to work hard and it's just not good enough (yet), hopefully us music teachers help them in other areas of their life too!

I probably found reading music relatively easy, as I was always a natural reader. I do remember not being able to read, when I was about 2 or 3 a nursery, but I also remember knowing then that letters combined to make sounds and words, and I remember learning to write my name at the same nursery.

I could certainly read by the time I started school. I have a vague recollection of a Scout Finch type moment with the teacher not really knowing what to make of the fact that I could breeze through the school reading system...

But although my sister first taught me to hold a recorder aged 4, and that I played with the school group from about 7, I could not read music without the letter names written out until I started playing the flute. This wasn't exactly laziness, more that no-one explained how it all worked.

When I did learn to read music then, I was about 10, and I found it very easy to gradually pick up. Perhaps though, this is the nature of learning a woodwind instrument like the flute. You start, most likely, with B,A and G. B is in the middle of the stave, A one above and G one below, thus you can easily figure them out. Gradually your range on the instrument expands in either direction, and you learn to read the note, and you battle with your technique to be able to play it.

(How well I remember how impossible D2 used to be to play... )

Perhaps this is not so easy on e.g. violin, where you don't necessary learn notes in such a systematic order from each other. Or with piano, where nearly straight away you have to concentrate on two staves. There's too much infomation to take in, all at the same time, compared to gradually building up the knowledge of notes, working one space or line from the previously learnt one.

I didn't start learning theory until I was 13 (there wasn't time in peri in-school lessons) and it was only really then that I learnt other clefs. I'm nothing like fluent in any (though working on reading bass clef through practise, by sightreading my boyfriends trombone music on flute) but I suspect I'd find it easier learning a new instrument, and learning one note at a time while linking each to it's sounds relative to the ones before...


Consequently, I still struggle to some extent with reading the very highest notes in flute music. Maybe it's because I am so very short sighted, but telling a third ledger line from a fourth is a right nightmare...

That's a very good point actually - I always feel a bit sorry for my piano pupils, the amount of notes they have to learn to read at once...

I'm sure you know this, but A isn't one above B on the stave, it's one below!!

opps...

Dargh, I was stressed about going back to my first lecture today, wasn't really visualising properly... *continues with other excuses*

Looking at how much badly aligned thoughts wavered into that post, I suspect I wasn't very awake yesterday afternoon. Hopefully some people realised what I was getting at: that learning FACE and EGBDF all at the same time, whatever memonics and games are used, is a right pain and too much to take in.

Learning one note at a time, over many weeks, when each is one up or down from the one before, and has a particular arrangement of fingers associated with it, is a piece of cake by comparison, and builds confidence that much more quickly. (In my opinion.)

Not sure that's any clearer... I'm getting as bad as my reaction engineering lecturer at uni.