Hi,

Just wondering about people's opinions on this. At what point to you become an "adult learner"? Obviously an adult who takes up an instrument for the first time or restarts. But what about people (there are lots on here!) who have been learning their instument through school and continue? Is it when you turn 18? Or when you leave school? I'm 21 and at university and technically am an adult but sure don't feel like one! Do you suddenly stop being a child pupil and become an adult one...?

Just realised the whole can of worms which may get opened about "When is someone an adult...."
I mean in terms of music and lessons etc.

Cat

Yeah, I though this would be the case! It's hard to distinguish.

This brings about the question "what is an adult..?" You could ask Beamish Boy about this.

Anyways, I think someone who is 16 or 17 I would probably teach like someone who is over 18, mentally they're probably in the same boat and they will learn in a similar way. The relationship would be different of course.

Hahahahaa! I did think this, wasn't gonna say anything...

It's an interesting point, and I think there are a few smudgy grey areas.
I first took up the treble recorder at twenty, and laboriously taught myself the F-based fingerings; it took me about four or five months to get those basics. I got myself to a grade 6-ish level, possibly, but ended up stopping because I was exhausted with work and small babies, and didn't really tootle again until I was about 38, when I first got lessons too.
However, I first blew any kind of recorder at nine, started the piano at about ten, and the oboe at twelve, so had certainly got some musical background by the time I took up the treble. I still count myself as an adult learner on my recorders, though, because I didn't start learning to play them properly until I was grown up. However, when I played in a music festival this summer, the adjudicator effectively diminished the effect of awarding me the medal, by saying she thought she'd award it to the competitor who was probably the most experienced...there's no doubt I was the oldest, but that's not the same thing .

But you got the medal because you deserved it!

Well, I hope it wasn't just cos she was feeling sorry for me, with my greying hair....
(the more cheerful twist at the end of it was that she was surprised to hear I'd only had four years of recorder lessons)

Unfortunately it does go with the territory when you're an adult learner. Once you get beyond the "new learner" stage, and are not conspicuously struggling with your instrument any more, the presumption is that you've played or sung for years.

I got a snide comment when I sang at a local High Scorer's event. And, of course, looking for professional singing work with a shiny new licentiate I'm competing with people who are either 20 years younger than me or have 20 years' more experience.

I think that it will take a time before people are prepared to accept, whether in festivals or exams or otherwise, that not everyone who plays an instrument started as a youngster.

I think that people who started their instruments when they were a child should probably be classed as improvers rather than adult learners because they didn't learn their instrument when they were an adult but as a child.

But again, how do you determine that - and what does it really mean? I view myself as a player of recorders, but didn't learn F instruments until I was an adult, though knew the fingering of the first octave and a half on a C instrument as a kid. I count the time I was learning recorders as the first four years of proper lessons, plus a little bit for having self-taught a decade or two before that, not the time when in school going toot toot with everyone else. I'm sure Katyjay will have blown recorders as a kid too, though she is a bit younger than I am . Similarly most of us will have been singing since very little, but some singers might only have started singing lessons as adults - are they then improvers or adult learners? If someone learns to a very basic level as a kid, but then returns as an adult, then although they might not be starting completely from scratch, it might very well feel like that.
Equally, I'd have to accept I've not had to learn reading notation in adulthood - and that is a big part of learning music too.

OK, here's my contribution, for what it's worth.

Flute: definitely not an Adult Learner, even though I have regular lessons. Why? I started it when I was 14, and took all my grade exams before I was 18. I took my diploma only a few years ago ago, when I was in my 40s, but that doesn't make me an AL.

Piano: definitely an AL. First few lessons at 17, a few more in my 20s and a Grade 3, most in the last few years and working towards Grade 8.

Singing: definitely an AL. I sang in choirs at school, but there is a world of difference between singing in choirs and being trained as a singer. I've only been learning to sing for two years.

Recorder: the tricky one. Started at 9, played lots until 14, as it was my only instrument and I was desperate to make music. Then flute took over, because I could have proper lessons and take part in orchestras with flute - nothing was available to me on recorder. I really started playing recorder seriously again around three years ago, as a result of joining these Forums and meeting jo.clarinet! Have been on courses during the last few years where the difference between my playing standard and my total ignorance (to start with) of the consort repertoire has raised a few eyebrows. And I took my one and only exam (Grade 8) as an adult, two years ago.

And which is my main instrument? I haven't a clue.

Anacrusis, you're right that I'd blown a recorder or two as a young'un. I had my first descant as a sixth (I think) birthday present (after SERIOUSLY pestering my parents that everyone else at school had one) and my treble the next year (with the same argument as before being slightly less valid.....) But school recorder classes didn't teach me anything (I'd worked my way through The School Recorder Book 1 and taught myself to read music in the process before I was officially old enough to join the school recorder group). And they stopped when I left primary school at the age of 9.

And I sang in school choirs and church choirs from when I was about 10 until I was 22. And then stopped, as studying for my accountancy exams and building my career didn't leave me any time for hobbies.

But studying recorder seriously, or singing seriously, didn't happen until I was in my late thirties. So I feel justified in calling myself an adult learner in both of those areas. And, of course, for violin I am unequivocally an adult learner given that I had never touched one until shortly before my first lesson two years ago.

It is a tad tricky pinning down sometimes where you'd consider yourself to be an adult learner, and where you wouldn't.

For me, I'd say clarinet, sax, flute I'm not, recorder is a bit borderline, singing a definite yes.

I'd consider myself as an adult learner on flute, because I returned to it as an adult after some years of not playing seriously. I'm also mostly self taught and my only real flute lessons are all post age 18 anyway. That said, I don't fit neatly into the definition some people would give.

Piano: erm, not sure. I did have 3 years of lessons as a child but then hardly played the thing (and indeed for a while didn't even have access to a piano) for 13 years.

Violin: definitely not, as I had lessons for most of my childhood and have not had since. Viola also not as I learned it off the back of violin and have not had lessons as an adult.

Cello: Definitely an AL.

Singing: ditto

Recorders/clarinet etc... no idea, wouldn't class myself as a serious learner of them (& have had no lessons) anyway so whether I am an adult learner or not doesn't seem to apply!

I would class myself as an adult learner - because an adult learner kind of has to include both adult starters and adult improvers!

I've played the recorder as long as I can remember, having proper lessons from 11-16 years of age. I got to G4ish in this time (though no exams taken after age 14).
After a 15 year break, yes, I can still read music, yes, I can still play the recorder, and it turns out that it's not taken toooooo much to get me back to G3ish. So that's definitely adult re-starter or adult improver.

As with new starters, I'm completely out of touch with teachers, teaching, etc, etc. When I was in full-time education, if I wanted to (re-)start learning an instrument, you would just speak to the music teacher and a peri would be sorted out. Now I have to find a teacher all on my own, work out the logistics all on my own, figure out where to find the money to pay for the lesson, getting to the lesson, finding an accompanist (when the time comes), finding a way of doing aural test practice (when the time comes), etc.
If I'd continued lessons, I would probably face some of these problems but (i) not all at once and (ii) I'd have existing teacher/etc to ask about it all Hey, maybe I should see if my mum can help me

Maizie touched on something that has occurred to me as I sit here. For me one of the things about adult learner vs not is also about where you're at. If I had got to grade 8 as a child and then taken it up again, then maybe I would be less likely to say "Oh yes, I'm an adult learner on the flute"... but I guess it's partly that I am an adult who is reasonably competent but not yet at a stage people might expect from someone who's been playing the flute since they were a child. Does that make any sense? Not having lessons till later in life (even though I played) and having had relatively few lessons, I still feel I'm very much on the learner side of things.

Not sure if that makes sense, but yeah, I identify with what Maizie has written.

No idea where I fit into this!

I don't consider myself an adult learner on clarinet, but the day I stop learning is the day I die.

I do consider myself an adult learner on piano: I started lessons at 13, got to Grade VII whilst at university, didn't have a piano lesson between graduating and January this year, i.e. a 13 year gap, although I played it during my sabbatical.

Anyway, I must be an adult learner on piano because katyjay's already told me I'm playing piano at the Adult Learners' concert next spring

I'm with you on that one Sarah.
I still consider myself as Adult Learner on piano, partly that I was an adult when I took grade 3 and partly that I feel that even though I passed grade 8 last year I'm still only playing at grade level rather than dip. level.
In lessons I'm taking time building up technique and confidence mostly playing things that people would put at a lower grade than 8. And I don't find them too easy either.

hi without any doubt i am an adult learner having started flute in june 2006 first lessons and not being able to read a note or get a sound from the mouth piece when buying my sparkly new flute

now 20 months on i have a house full of instruments, band members and music books on every surface and play around grade 4

it is without any doubt the best thing i have ever done

Sounds reasonable, but . . . I started playing piano at about 4, started lessons at 7 and gave up at 13. I then didn't have any lessons for 34 years. I REstarted learning after the age of 18. I think that makes me an adult learner too. I hope so anyway, though I have occasional doubts.

I agree, Rob. That's why I consider myself more or less an adult learner on piano and flute. I'm not sure what difference it would make if one suddenly became an adult learner at 18 one is still the same person!

Well, I am definitely an adult learner anyway.
I started piano when I was 18 and violin when I was 19...

Does that mean, though, that you think that those who have got beyond grade level, even if they achieved that as adults, stop becoming adult learners? Because that seemed to be precisely the prejudice against which I came this summer - people could see I was ancient compared with the teenagers playing, and appeared to have come to the conclusion that I had no business competing with them; it was assumed I must be very experienced because I could play reasonably well, but that the kids were exceptional for playing well - yet it is entirely possible that they will have had more public performance experience than I have, and as many years' tuition too.

Disheartening as it can be to have people assume you ought to be able to play well just because of being older - the one group of people which does seem to acknowledge the extra effort and guts it takes to perform as a learning adult is the examiners - the three I've played my recorders to were all very pleasant and did their best to be reassuring.

I understand what you mean and I think that the line is a bit fuzzy but I rather lean towards the feeling that someone at Dip. level is by definition a reasonably confident and accomplished performer. Isn't that what is required in a diploma exam even at the first level?
I do realise it's not a one size fits all thing though and so far with Adult Learner concerts it's been pretty much left to individuals to define themselves rather that putting a set of rules in place which could never really cover all eventualities. Having said that Adult Learner Concert publicity does emphasize (not too heavily) that beginner and intermediate level players are expecially welcome as these (usually) the ones who are more reluctant to playing in front of people and the AL concerts aim to be a safe environment for those people.

My reason for labouring this point is that five years ago I'd have been terrified of playing in front of an audience of any sort - I'm still not entirely sure what gave me the courage to play to my teacher for the first time. I've played in five concerts, one workshop, and done three exams and then the festival this summer.....and that's it. Compared with the teenaged kid who has been having lessons for the same number of years, done a grade a year, played in school concerts every year and done music festivals every year - I'm a novice.
It's one of the real difficulties adult learners have - we tend to find ourselves learning in isolation (mind you, I guess that is a problem for pianists of all ages), with few opportunities to share our music either with friends or an audience (better still a friendly audience ). That applies just as much to those of us who are relatively advanced as those who are setting out, because kids are thrown together in organisations where orchestras and bands are commonly part of their lives - there's no surgery band at my place of work, for instance. It's embarrassing, hunting for people to play with, and much harder to free up time when other adults can come for a bit of a busk. And I still find the idea of just setting up a concert and touting for an audience really daunting - why would anyone come, it's only an adult learner, not Marion Verbruggen.....?

I know what you mean! I'd sort of consider myself an adult learner on piano (definitely with the organ) because I went back to playing after a gap of about 20 years, picked up where I left off and moved on - and would like to keep moving on. As a teacher now, pupil concerts are a good outlet for performing and accompanying, and I've been asked to do other things as a result of that. Also, some of the adult and teenage pupils have organised events of their own, which have been good fun. Unless we're wizz-kids who win the top prizes at big festivals, though, serious performance opportunities for adults are limited. The best plan is just to make supper and invite your musical friends of all ages to come and play and listen - and hopefully the invitation will be returned in the future!

No, IMO... but others may disagree!

I think it's a fuzzy definition, but certainly IMO if you started as an adult, you're an adult learner.

Whether I'd still consider myself an adult learner on flute if I were as good as you are at the recorder, I don't know

I think you're an adult learner when you pay for your own lessons, have to motivate yourself and don't have the benefit of your Dad standing over you with a big stick saying, 'You will practise!'.

Then there are those who started as youngsters (maybe as teens or even younger) and who have continued more or less to have lessons but as adults are still well down the grades as far as level goes.
There are far to many exceptions to try to define it.
Maybe in some ways it's a attitude of mind?
There could be dip level players who think (or know?) that they are very competent players and who would feel quite comfortable in being asked to play in public and/or who would feel that a small friendly gathering wasn't really of interest to them as performers. Others at the same level feel that a short performing spot at such an event is really worthwhile and of benefit to them.

The thought of Anacrusis (and others) on this are quite thought provoking and I'm getting a new slant on diplomas. This may be simplistic (Send out a lynch mob if I'm out of order) but it seems to me that for some at least the way they feel on passing their diploma is a little(maybe a very little) like my thought at grade 5 and then grade 8....... before both of those exam I sort of had tihs idea that reaching that level would somehow mean that I was actually getting reasonable competent but when I got there I found that things hadn't changed and I was still wary of being found out as really not very good.

Then again I could be talking a complete load of nonsense.

Oh yes - I meant that as why I would consider anacrusis an adult learner - not as a definitive definition! Because I consider myself one too, and I don't really fit it!


Not that I have passed a dip (or even grade 8) but I can well imagine that many less confident people might feel that way.

The thing is I'd always thought that taking and passing a diploma pretty well presupposed a certain level of both confidence and competence. One reason why it's not even on my wish list of things to do, to me it just seems a totally unrealistic idea. (or maybe I'm just lazy, a wimp or both)

Grade 7 was amazing.
I'd failed grade 7 piano as a teenager, and that stuck in my gizzard for years - I'd always wanted somehow to redress the balance. I knew I had musical instincts, but there was no outlet to realise them, because I never was much of a pianist, and never will be; the oboe was really out of reach for financial reasons, because there were no funds to upgrade my instrument - when I took up the recorder initially it was to have something - anything - to play, and I got well and truly stuck trying to teach myself.
When I was 38, my husband found me a teacher, and the stuck recorder player was able to learn at last - it was like letting the cork out of a bottle of fizz. I'd never improved my playing so quickly before - helped massively by the fact that I was also sitting in on my kids' piano lessons, and absorbing practice techniques and tips from their teacher as well as having my own inspirational teacher to guide what I was doing. When he suggested I do a grade, I was stunned - I'd really not thought such a thing to be possible any more - and when he suggested grade 7 I was gobsmacked. (and even more surprised that I agreed to give it a try!) Despite failing the scales, I got the best mark I'd ever got in any musical exam, and was on a high for weeks afterwards.

Grade 8 was a dream.
This one took place in a bit of a haze because I'd been having to adjust to a family member having developed a chronic medical condition just the week before - I thought "what the heck" and went for it, playing well because I knew there were more important things in life than exams - and when the result came through, I was on air again, having done what I had never dreamed of - not just grade 8, but a good grade 8, two years after starting lessons.

Even doing ATCL, and getting almost the same percentage mark as I had for grades 7 and 8, felt absolutely fantastic - I've certainly not got complacent, and I don't regard myself as a wonderful player - doing this has made me so aware of just how far there still is to go. The ceiling goes on rising, you see - each of those steps has been exciting to take and exhilarating to succeed in, but there's more to do. I like that - it means music isn't going to get boring any time soon. But in the meantime, I'm learning still, I've not "arrived", and I have the same worries and insecurities that all musicians have, especially those setting out after adulthood. As far as dcmbarton's comment goes, about unnecessary categorisation - I have to say that since we do get judged by the rule that kids who've done well are talented, but adults who do well - well, we expect it don't we? - it is important that we can be described as adult learners, and our achievements acknowledged for what they are. I understand the reason why the adult learner concerts seek to keep the dip level players out - but it still does rankle a bit, I must admit.

Splodge: what a wonderful definition - and I fit it perfectly .

Well, it certainly didn't with me. But if I think about how I feel about my piano-playing, I can sort of see where you're coming from.

I'll be a friendly audience for you but only on one condition - that you will be a friendly audience for me.

This is exactly what an adult learner is.
The difficultly isn't about this definition, it's just needs clear sub-categories of adult learning, such as:
Adult starter
Adult re-starter
Adult-never-stopped

I suppose the next difficulty is how much of a gap you can have before you turn from never-stopped to re-starter

It's not so much keeping dip level players out, we do have one or two usually, it's more a matter of the main target group being those lower down the learning ladder.
In some ways it's a question of balance..... if it's top heavy it can be a little dispiriting rather than inspirational for early grade participants.
As I said before we've kept away from any firm definition, leaving people to define themselves mostly.
It is still early days for the AL concerts and we are learning all the time about what works and the whole thing is evolving as we go.

Actually they don't. Or I'd never have been eligible for the very first one I set up....

What we DO seek to do is to reach those learners who are nearer the beginning of the journey, and reassure them that the concerts are for them too, and that the argument "everyone will be better than me so I don't want to take part" is not valid. We've heard that so many times that we've lost count.

But, essentially, the adult learner concerts are for people who are at a stage where they cannot yet find or make their own performance opportunities. This is why people at higher levels, who quite often DO have those opportunities, are not our priority.

I think that's well summed up how most people seem to feel... "if I can just get to..." turns into "maybe I'll try for..." - regardless of whether the starting point is prep test or grade 7.

My perception and experience is different - I do think people treat us differently, and have different expectations of us because we're grown up.

Hands up who else has been asked why on earth they're taking music lessons as adults? I certainly have.

Bachpensioner - I'd be delighted to, and thank you. If I manage a public recital up here some time, I'll let you know - and do let me know likewise . In the meantime, it's Doors Open Day tomorrow, and I think I'll be tootling at St Cecilia's at intermittent intervals during the day, but there isn't a timetable as such. The only thing I do know is that I'll have to be away by about 4:30 because I need to take one of the kids to ballet.

Soooooooooooooo many times.

And "Why do you need to take lessons? You already play the <instrument>"

Isn't it great how a simple question has provoked such an interesting thread?

I've also been asked, by a non-musical mum, whether I took up piano and violin to compete with my daughter!

Ermmm.... no......I'm doing it for me and having a great time learning!

My mum took up violin when I was learning - it was great She got grade 2 with merit as I recall!

Assuming you mean the "why are you taking lessons/why do you need lessons", I've been asked both more times than I care to remember, and know many others who have too... neither proves much either way but clearly (see above) it isn't just me!

Well done to your mum!

My daughter loves looking at my certs, tells all her friends about me and keeps asking me when my next exam is! I think that means she's rather proud of my achievements........

Awww yes it does sound that way!

Me too on both these questions.

Plus one charming one: "Why do you want to take up the violin? You already sing and play the piano". To which I gently pointed out that I play the recorder too...."yes, but that doesn't count, does it?" after which the offender escaped alive, but only just....

But brutally maimed, I presume(hope)??

I'm amazed.

...that the offender escaped alive, that is.

Beware the wrath of katyjay.

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHH, AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've said what I think of such derogatory comments about the recorder many, many times on the forum, it just makes you wonder, doesn't it?