I keep seeing these words spelt incorrectly, and until I'd come across the difference myself, I spelt them wrong too!

As teachers, if we spell them correctly, it'll affect loads of other people.

Practice = the noun, Practise = the verb (spelling).

That is, "I did some practice, practice schedule, lots of practice" [practice as a thing],
but "I like to practise, practising can be hard, I practised this piece for hours" [practise as an action].

Any other musical words you've often seen spelt wrong?
Any good ways of remembering them?

P.S. I know spelt can also be written as spelled - in the dictionary.

now i understand!

its always confused me, even though my english teachers and David have told me lol

It's easy if you remember that the verb is the one that adds "ING" to make "practising", and that looks more natural with an S before it than with a C.

Incidentally I believe American English spells it the same in both forms and doesn't use the version with S.

Maggie

I can never spell the word which means the music the piano plays when someone else is playing the solo line, it starts "accomp...." (won't spell it because I can't). For some reason I start off accompania and then get lost. I now write "the piano part" or "the bass line" or "that left hand bit"

Do you mean accompaniment?

I do get sick of being called a accompanyist, I reckon I'm an accompanist!

My school music teacher spelt "tremolo" T-R-E-M-E-L-O and when I pointed out that it might be incorrect, he looked it up in the music dictionary to show me, and found that I was right

Huh, some of the speeling ive sene on some ov theez bords, (u=you, 2=to or too, ur=you are (or maybe the grunt of a neanderthal pianist?) the practice/practise thing is a mere peccadillo surely.

But yes, we should praktiss wot we preech.
(I'll probably gt done for this)

I got caught in the middle of a "Surely it doesn't matter how you spell things as long as people understand you..." rant by my English teacher the other day. (some busy body had just corrected my spelling of something in a draft copy~ I know I cant spell well, I dont need it pointing out!!).

The funniest thing was he just laughed, said I made a good point (well I was in full debating mode!) and pulled out an email about how as long as the first and last letters in a word remain in their correct places, we can understand what is writtten anyway!

So terilotheacly polepe solhud be albe to udsenarnd tihs?

So, my point is, if people understand, why does it matter how we spell practise!!

Oh, and sorry for invading the teachers forum with a teenage students ranty drivel.

Oh Tamsin, please - I think you're trying to give me a heart attack! Part of my job involves quite a lot of proof reading....sometimes I think that if I see one more grocer's apostrophe or "of" instead of "have" I'll scream (I saw that one in the Sunday Times this week!) Practice/practise is a common mistake - as is licence/license (follows the same rules) - and now nobody on this site has any excuse....oh well, I can dream!

I know that a lot of people who use this site are just typing quickly or using "text speak" to get the message across, but it drives me potty! I believe that correct spelling does matter, if only to make it easier to understand for people who don't have English as their first language, and I know that there are many such people using this site.

However, I'm well aware that I'm probably in the minority (yes, I even check my spelling and grammar when sending emails or text messages...sad, isn't it?) so I'll just have to live with it, despite it giving me high blood pressure - it takes all sorts to make up this wonderful community, just as long as we all understand each other most of the time.

QUOTE (folkie @ Sep 2 2004, 05:54 PM)

I believe that correct spelling does matter, if only to make it easier to understand for people who don't have English as their first language, and I know that there are many such people using this site. However, I'm well aware that I'm probably in the minority (yes, I even check my spelling and grammar when sending emails or text messages...sad, isn't it?)

I'm part of that minority too. I've lived abroad (three years in the Netherlands) and know how hard it was to learn to understand colloquial written language even when it was spelt correctly. At least then there was some hope of being able to look things up in the dictionary.

I hardly ever use my mobile. It just lives in my back pack ready for the night I break down on our country roads. However, I definitely check my spelling and grammar on emails.

We are so lucky to have this wonderfully rich language I'd like to encourage everyone to accept the challenge of learning to use it as precisely as possible.

Well I was expecting a few comment to that extent~ I guess I did kinda (oh sorry, kind of oh isn't that bad grammar too??) I guess I did ask for it.

Sorry if anyone has fallen down dead overnight, but perhaps I should qualify what I meant:

Spelling in formal situations (ie, not a message board!) tends to have a handy computer spelling and grammar checker~ which I use. Generally speaking, I don't get my grammar wrong, and I certainly don't use 'of' instead of 'have'~ and I never have done! Its my spelling that I have trouble with, everything from 'thier' to 'tommorrow' and 'nessessary' or 'neccessary'. I know I spell these words wrong, I have been for years, and when you trying to get these ones right, a minor thing like an 's' instead of a 'c' in practise, pales into insignificance!

Saying that, my spelling and grammar can't be that bad, otherwise I would never have gotten my A*'s in English and English Lit, although if you read the papers, and believe what they say...!

Hi tamsin,

The reason people can still understand bad spelling (or even your little sentence a couple of posts previously!!) is just that language has lots of redunancy built in. You can even lop off the top half of a line of text and work out what's being said from what's left. Plus our use of anticipation.
Still, getting it right certainly reduces uncertainty.

Compare it with music. That has to be right. At times you can put a note in a wrong position or miss out an accidental - or even get a key signature wrong - and a musically literate person may work out what's what. (Not always possible with modern works). It has very little redundancy, contains a very high density of info per event etc.

Interesting subject - music and information theory.

Good point...

I think I'll stick to words to be honest, far easier than music!

QUOTE (folkie @ Sep 2 2004, 05:54 PM)

Oh Tamsin, please - I think you're trying to give me a heart attack! Part of my job involves quite a lot of proof reading....sometimes I think that if I see one more grocer's apostrophe or "of" instead of "have" I'll scream (I saw that one in the Sunday Times this week!) Practice/practise is a common mistake - as is licence/license (follows the same rules) - and now nobody on this site has any excuse....oh well, I can dream! I know that a lot of people who use this site are just typing quickly or using "text speak" to get the message across, but it drives me potty! I believe that correct spelling does matter, if only to make it easier to understand for people who don't have English as their first language, and I know that there are many such people using this site. However, I'm well aware that I'm probably in the minority (yes, I even check my spelling and grammar when sending emails or text messages...sad, isn't it?) so I'll just have to live with it, despite it giving me high blood pressure - it takes all sorts to make up this wonderful community, just as long as we all understand each other most of the time.

[QUOTE]

Sorry about the last post which was sent by error.

I am neither a teacher nor a student. I am writing in response to this thread as an adult, and as a foreigner - I come from Hong Kong.

People who have English as their second language usually spend years at school to learn proper English. The difference between practice/practise, license/licence and different spellings by American English (if any) can be learnt since the age of about 12. Although we may not be able to write or speak English like a native Englishman, most of us can communicate in English reasonably well. So we can understand u=you, 2= too, ur=you are etc. But I would like to thank Folkie for being so considerate.

I think the use of u=you, 2= too is extremely common in message boards like this, and are frequently used by teenagers. I would regard these forms as the distinctive use of "language" in the world of internet. It does not necessary mean that people are not able to write proper English, it is just the unique way of communication. As long as people don't use offending words (including a user name), I think we adults may try to adapt to this new kind of language.

Teenagers may also have a second thought when writing up a post. The provision of internet has only become popular in recent 10 years, which means that online communications did not exist at all when we were teenagers. It is therefore quite understandable that adults prefer to use proper English in message boards like this. If you are able to write proper English, please do so. Your little extra effort will be highly appreciated by most of the adults.

My conclusion therefore is, music is the real international language. Music connects people, no matter the colour of your skin or the language you speak. We are affected by music in the same way. Music is very powerful - it is more than merely information.

Sam

Anyone read 'Eats, shoots, and leaves'? I think you'd enjoy it folkie.

Such a good book, and really funny. It has certainly made me HORRIFIED to make mistakes in my punctuation...

And yes, textspeak might be quick to type (for some anyway), but takes me ages to read!

But then I'm an oldie too...

QUOTE

Anyone read 'Eats, shoots, and leaves'? I think you'd enjoy it folkie.

Yes, Emma - I've got a copy - she's definitely a woman after my own heart! I promise I haven't always been this bad (although I've always been a bit of a pedant), but since I've been paid to have reasonably good grammar and spelling, and to correct other people's if necessary for the last six years, I find it almost impossible to ignore - an incorrect apostrophe just leaps out of the page at me. I imagine it's the same in music for those of you that are far more knowledgeable than me - an incorrect note would stand out a mile.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one out there (apart from my boss, that is - she's just as bad as me!)

QUOTE (samanthafung @ Sep 4 2004, 05:33 PM)

People who have English as their second language usually spend years at school to learn proper English.  The difference between practice/practise, license/licence and different spellings by American English (if any) can be learnt since the age of about 12.

I have to say it's often easy to spot non-native English speakers from their posts because their written English is so much better than that of most native speakers!

I am also rather pedantic when it comes to grammar and often cringe at the text speak; I don't know if I count as old (I'm 22) but I've always hated it!

Eats, Shoots and Leaves is an excellent book, everyone should read it.

Well, well...I recently had a birthday, and was given a copy of "Eats, Shoots & Leaves - The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation" by Lynne Truss, which Emma C mentioned above.

I was intrigued to see it classified as "Reference / Humour" on the back cover, and your comments have whet my appetite for a good read!

Another spelling that can be confused is good old RHYTHM. I was in a class when on teaching practice and the teacher taught the class by rote:
"R, H, Y, (gap) T, H, M"
(to the rhythm: crotchet, crotchet, minim, crotchet, crotchet, minim)
over and over quite a few times, so as to memorize this. ______

Funnily enough, although it has stuck very firmly in my memory now (I probably spelt it correctly before - I hope), I do now find that whenever I write the word, I can't help thinking to myself the letters as if saying them as above, which I would prefer not to have going through my mind!

Anyone have any better ways of teaching this spelling?

Oh well, at least I can't be accused of using text typing here!

As I said before, its (ergh, you got me checking every blessed apostrophe (is that spelt right even? ) I type , and as I remember, "it is" is the one where you don't use an apostrophe!) its my spelling rather than grammer that trips me up!

Well, with the exceptions of colloquialisms: (also probably spelt wrong ) I'm sure Emma will probably disagree, but you can't seem to live in Cornwall without picking a few of them up!

QUOTE (tamsin @ Sep 6 2004, 02:19 PM)

I remember, "it is" is the one where you don't use an apostrophe!) its my spelling rather than grammer that trips me up!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!! (...or have I missed some intended humour?)

See HERE for correct usage of it's and it is

and HERE for correct spelling of grammar

[Sorry - but I'm a bit of an obsessive about grammar and punctuation]

Oh Cressida, you spoilsport - you got in before me that time!

Tamsin - go and hang your head in shame....or were you really joking? If so, please be a bit more gentle with all of us apostrophe freaks out there - we're delicate souls and shock easily!

QUOTE (DomRUK @ Sep 5 2004, 12:15 AM)

I was intrigued to see it classified as "Reference / Humour" on the back cover, and your comments have whet my appetite for a good read!  ^_^

Yes, it is serious and funny at the same time.

You also end up laughing at yourself at times. Some of the things the author finds infuriating you also find infuriating, and often they are such insignificant things! The world won't end if the grocer's apostrophe is in the wrong place... maddening though that is! (he really should change it... NOW!)

You end up telling yourself to take life more lightly!! Well worth the read.

QUOTE (tamsin @ Sep 6 2004, 02:19 PM)

I'm sure Emma will probably disagree, but you can't seem to live in Cornwall without picking a few of them up!

Absolutely not. We live in sunny dreckly land - also sometimes as frsutrating as a misplaced apostrophe!

Actually, I can promise grammar was a typing error, but the apostrophe thing~ it's the other way round??

Opps

<cringes and shortly after dies of embarressment (another word I can't spell, is it two r's two s's or two of both?>

I think I'll just crawl away from the teachers board and never some back.

Wasn't getting at you Tamsin!

Life's too short to worry about misplacing the odd apostrophe in a Forum....

Don't crawl away - we'd miss you. (Hug)

QUOTE (tamsin @ Sep 6 2004, 06:21 PM)

Actually, I can promise grammar was a typing error, but the apostrophe thing~ it's the other way round?? Opps <cringes and shortly after dies of embarressment (another word I can't spell, is it two r's two s's or two of both?> I think I'll just crawl away from the teachers board and never some back.

Tamsin

I wasn't getting at you either - (well, only a bit ), but I'm a teacher (not piano or music) so I just can't help it.

((((((((Big Hug)))))))

Cressida x

I assure you, Tamsin, I've understood everything you've written. Unless you used a wrong word I've always got the message. The occasional spelling mistake doesn't matter and you're no worse than me - far better in fact.

Just remember that 'its' is a possessive, when something beloings to 'it', like his or hers.


We all have our foibles! Mine is misuse of the subjunctive mood and not declining the one or two words still declined in english.

Tamsin, please don't take it too much to heart - I might be good at grammar, but I should think you've got more musical talent in your little finger than I've got in my whole body - I'm definitely a Jack of all (well, several!) trades and master of none.....not in musical terms anyway! The instruments I play & singing I do are strictly amateur and probably for folk enthusiasts only!

My excuse is that I'm an ex-teacher who now writes & edits various technical documents for a living. I'm paid to be picky and just can't stop doing it!

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Sep 6 2004, 08:45 PM)

We all have our foibles! Mine is misuse of the subjunctive mood and not declining the one or two words still declined in english.

What?

I did English and linguistics at uni - and you've lost me there!!!!

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Sep 6 2004, 08:45 PM)

We all have our foibles!   Mine is misuse of the subjunctive mood and not declining the one or two words still declined in english.

That comment brings to mind Latin lessons, I can just picture my copy of Kennedy's Revised Latin Primer - Ugh

Here's another one I've pondered:

RHYME
........it always looks funny to me , whether spelt as above, or spelt

RIME
........which is the other spelling given in my dictionary .

If you've written it in notebooks for pupils (or yourself) to practise, how have you spelt it?

I use the first version as it has the same first three letters as RHYTHM, which is useful for promoting the correct spelling of that word - it's not that I have a thing about exactness of spelling for its own sake , it's that it's (it's that it's, it's that it's ) a bother later in life if some words are always confused for a moment when writing them (particularly musical ones for musicians ) - I had this with FRIENDS / FREINDS for a number of years .

The second version RIME looks a bit like TIME with a spelling error, to me, so I don't use that spelling myself.

How do you spell it?

P.S. The real question we all want to know the answer to is - can an emoticon (clickable smile) go before OR after the final punctuation ?

Is this the stuff Churchill railed when he said:

"This is the sort of pedantry up with which I will not put."

If I was you, I'd get these things sorted out. You never know to who you might be speaking, or whose going to read your posts.

QUOTE (DomRUK @ Sep 8 2004, 12:07 PM)

P.S. The real question we all want to know the answer to is - can an emoticon (clickable smile) go before OR after the final punctuation ?

I would always put them before so that the final punctuation remains final; otherwise it seems that they are detatched and are left on their own.

I personally would always use rhyme; I didn't know about the rime spelling but I don't think that I'll start using it now, most people would probably think that it's a spelling error.

The spelling rhyme is apparently (according to dictionary.com) an alteration (influenced by rhythm), of Middle English rime from Old French, of Germanic origin. So rime is actually the original.

Aww, you all so nice about my apostophe's.

OK I won't go away and never come back, I just couldn't believe I'd managed to get it wrong again after all the time and effort I've put in to trying to stick it into my head!

I've always spelt rhyme, rhyme, its one of the few words I can spell right!

And as for the smilies, before the punctuation if it relates directly to the sentence, and after if its a 'comment' on something in the sentence.

Like now, where in theory all my apostrophes should be worng this time.

But chances are I've gotten myself even more confused, and that they're all right or something!

Tamsin, wtih your 'its' problem.
If it means 'it is' you need an apostrophe becase you are missing out a letter (the 'i' of 'is').
The apstrophe indicates the missing letter.
Same for every time this happens.

QUOTE (DomRUK @ Sep 8 2004, 08:07 AM)

Here's another one I've pondered: RHYME ........it always looks funny to me , whether spelt as above, or spelt RIME ........which is the other spelling given in my dictionary . If you've written it in notebooks for pupils (or yourself) to practise, how have you spelt it? I use the first version as it has the same first three letters as RHYTHM, which is useful for promoting the correct spelling of that word - it's not that I have a thing about exactness of spelling for its own sake , it's that it's (it's that it's, it's that it's ) a bother later in life if some words are always confused for a moment when writing them (particularly musical ones for musicians ) - I had this with FRIENDS / FREINDS for a number of years . The second version RIME looks a bit like TIME with a spelling error, to me, so I don't use that spelling myself. How do you spell it? P.S. The real question we all want to know the answer to is - can an emoticon (clickable smile) go before OR after the final punctuation ?

i think you are confusing rime with rhyme
the rime i know has to do with the components of a word: the onset and the rime

cheers

QUOTE (tamsin @ Sep 8 2004, 03:38 PM)

Aww, you all so nice about my apostophe's. OK I won't go away and never come back, I just couldn't believe I'd managed to get it wrong again after all the time and effort I've put in to trying to stick it into my head! I've always spelt rhyme, rhyme, its one of the few words I can spell right! And as for the smilies, before the punctuation if it relates directly to the sentence, and after if its a 'comment' on something in the sentence. Like now, where in theory all my apostrophes should be worng this time. But chances are I've gotten myself even more confused, and that they're all right or something!

I have noticed the use of apostrophes for plural forms of words. e.g. If you click the 'My Controls' link at the top of this page, you will see on the left column Unsent PM's. As far as I have been taught, apostrophes are used for contractions, or for possession not plurals.

Cheerio mates

Thanks for the hint sbhoa. I'll try and remember that. I guess the problem then comes when I'm typing quickly and tend to miss the apostrophes out of words like 'dont'!

QUOTE (folkie @ Sep 2 2004, 07:54 PM)

I believe that correct spelling does matter, if only to make it easier to understand for people who don't have English as their first language, and I know that there are many such people using this site.

Good point!

I'm one of those who's not having English as their first language, but I'm not having any problem reading/understanding any kind of English(even bad spelling and/or things like me 2, 4 ever etc, etc).
As a matter of fact, I've been able to read and fully understand any kind of English fluently since the age of 9 (this is true, even if you may not think so).

But there are some diffrences between countrys who don't have English as their national language. In Sweden, for instance, we have subtitles in English movies/tv series/tv shows that are shown here, so we're being exposed to the English speak even as we have the subtitles. Thing is, we all eventually starts to link together the things spoken with the swedish words in the subtitles, thus learning the language even if we don't want to.

You may then think that most other countrys do this as well, altough this isn't usually the case. They usually have their movies dubbed to their national language, thus losing the English speak and makes the rate they're beign exposed to the English language considerbly lower.

So, my point is that it's better to use the right spelling, because there are so many people who're not having an especially easy time reading what some people are saying

I'm also very picky that I'm spelling things right when I'm writing things in Swedish, just to assure that I'm not being misunderstod

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Sep 8 2004, 12:26 PM)

I personally would always use rhyme; I didn't know about the rime spelling but I don't think that I'll start using it now, most people would probably think that it's a spelling error.

Not if they know their Coleridge ("The Rime of the Ancient Mariner").

I swear my English teacher always spelt it rhyme.

But then if they didn't know any better...

"rime" is the buildup of ice on a surface or edge exposed to water and freezing temperatures, such as exposed aircraft parts or building exteriors. It is an archaic spelling of rhyme, as the Coleridge example, and as the line in "Ding dong, merrily on high" which runs "May you beautifully rime / your evetime song, ye singers". But it is not correct in this sense in modern English.

A few of my favourites:

dependent (adjective: financially reliant on) / dependant (noun: one who relies on another)
idiosyncratic (adjective) gives a noun idiosyncrasy (pl. -sies), not -cy
principle (noun: basic truth or axiom) / principal (adj: first in rank or importance; noun: senior civil servant)
sterling (British currency) / Stirling (city in central Scotland)
their (pronoun: 3rd person plural possessive) / there (adverb: yonder, in that place)
affect (verb: to influence or change) / effect (noun: an influence or change)
harebrained (not hair-)
who's (who is) / whose (relative or interrogative possessive pronoun)
could of (should be could *have*)

Just used the "Rhymer" from my music program (see the new topic "Free Notation Program" in the General Discussion Forum for the free version , which doesn't have the rhymer, but which is for writing, hearing and printing music etc.) and found some other words that have a "C" to "S" change like practice and practise:

Noun....................Verb

Practice................Practise
Advice..................Advise
Device..................Devise
Prophecy..............Prophesy

Enjoying my newly updated music program you see.....!

Just remembered:

forego (precede) / forgo (dispense with)

Vocal CORDS not vocal CHORDS!

The easiest way to remember which is practise and which is practice is to compare it to words with those endings which sound different - eg you can devise (verb, like practise) a device (noun, like practice). Likewise advise, advice - although equally important not to confuse lies and lice, eyes and ice, or pay rise and boiled rice.

QUOTE (DomRUK @ Sep 1 2004, 11:41 AM)

Any other musical words you've often seen spelt wrong? Any good ways of remembering them?

I'd advise you to remember this advice: use other verbs/nouns that sound different from each other

Remember not to correct North Americans. "Practice" is a verb in Webster's dictionary.

QUOTE

Remember not to correct North Americans. "Practice" is a verb in Webster's dictionary

I know ....... but doesn't practicing look odd ???????

In some parts of the world "class" is taken to mean an individual lesson as well as a group lesson. Anyone else come across this?

M