I teach piano and theory in a school, and have had some good successes recently. One gifted lad passed 11 GCSEs, and received deserved acclaim on the school notice board and in the school newsletter. However, there was no mention of his Grade 6 piano distinction or his for grade 6 theory merit.

I asked another grade 6 student who has just done his music GCSE a year early whether he found studying for piano and theory grades harder than the GCSE. He said the GCSE took less studying.

Is it me? Is it just my school? or is this qualification undervalued in the school curriculum?

It may be undervalued in the school - but he's got 45 UCAS points towards any university course he might apply to.

I've just been doing the tours of all the schools for my daughter, who is in yr 6 and is looking to change next year. It differs from school to school, some of them publish their results, others don't. With most it seems to depend on whether they learn through the school or not - private results get ignored.

2 years ago, one of the 6th years passed Grade 8 piano. He didn't even get mentioned in the school newsletter (if my memory serves me correctly).

Our school received some extra funding as an award for something...The music department was on the verge of falling apart yet they spent it on something sports-related. (Sorry, this is a slightly touchy subject for me ). It would appear that so rarely does anyone from our school go anywhere with music that they completely over-look things when they do happen.

I'm guessing you teach in England? I don't think that enough value is placed on AB exams in this area (Highlands of Scotland), and that pupils need more encouragement. These are of course only my humble views, and as a student rather than a teacher I doubt I'm really in much of a position to ask for change, but I understand what you're saying. Perhaps if more value was placed on gaining an AB qualification, even more young people would grab the opportunity rather than looking back when they're older and wishing they'd done something then.

From my PGCE experience I would suggest that it might be an 'inclusion' issue - meaning that in the classroom the teacher has to make sure that all pupils, even if very low ability, are given equal opportunity to do well and that classroom activities are 'differentiated' to enable inclusion. As a result, I suspect that private results might be 'undervalued' and would not necessarily be 'praised' in front of children who would not be able to achieve the same.

In my case I think my classroom mentor took it too far - he clearly was not the slightest bit interested that some of my private pupils were in class and had passed Grade x with y result, and made comments such as - 'just because this pupil has passed Grade 4 with you it doesn't mean that this pupil can pass GCSE etc etc. In my opinion inclusion should be about including the high achievers as well as those less able!

As already said it would depend on the school - private or state school would make a difference perhaps.

YES! Don't even get me started...

Nor me...

mmm... excel on the foodball field and your a hero try to celebrate your musical successes and your just being big headed... ring any bells anyone?

with the statement about high achievers. SENCO always seems to veer off to the less able - the more academic ones need stretching too, and that's where individual instrumental lessons should be valued.

Possibly depends on the private/state school thing - the head of music in the prep school where I give lessons always makes sure any exam passes are mentioned in the newsletter. But also sport is seriously highlighted because it's supposed to be inclusive, but my daughter who is a talented musician is not good at sport and has suffered all sorts of name calling etc etc because she can't run fast or whatever.

I just think that music needs a much higher profile all round and we must all plug away at the benefits various types of musical activity bring to all children

Hah!

(Had the same experience as your daughter at school)

Singing is just as inclusive as any sport!! Really, music tends to be just abandoned. We should stage a revolt!

Ooh, no it isn't ! How many perfectly able pupils say they cannot sing? Ask them if they can run and they'll all say yes. How many times do you sit there doing the aural tests and say, "Well, give it a try. I won't look" and they sing perfectly competently.
How many members of staff in schools fail to sing lustily to set a good example?

Boys have a tendency to think it's sissy (might not have spelled that right - does it have a c? You can tell I'm a bit steamed up ) etc etc.

Of course it's inclusive, but there are even parents out there who declare that their (perfectly competent) children cannot sing - so there needs to be a major revolution to raise the awareness of the general population that 99.9% of people can sing. (I am aware of lots of initiatives out there, but it does seem like a long haul )

Edit: sorry just re-read this and it's a bit of a ramble. Also a bit off topic. Sorry. I'll go and get the tea ready.

Quite alot!!

When my eldest went to High School they did print the exam results in the newsletter. the last few I've seen don't.

I thinkit's disgusting that some schools don't even give pupils with AB exams proper Targets, my own child is classed as 4a, so are many of her classmates. When I asked why it's because they are only rated on the work they cover in class. I know other schools don't have this attitude.

I work at a private school and sadly they never ask me for my pupil's exam results. The only time exams are mentioned is when I ask for a particular pupil to have some time off school to take the exam. It's a shame. It would be lovely if their hard work was mentioned in the newsletter or something.

I find that astonishing. Apart from giving the pupils a pat on the back, you would think that the school would want to advertise their successes.

I agree, it is odd and I've never understood why. They offer a wide range of music tuition, the opportunity to play in the orchestra, recorder etc... but don't seem interested in the exams they take.

Some of my pupils at the Primary school around the corner get mentioned in assembly for things like music exams, festivals etc...

They bring in their certificate and get it "presented" to them in front of the school, which is nice

At my own Primary School it was the same. On awards night anyone could bring in recent festival medals/exam certificates for the same thing.

In Grammar school I don't remember anyone getting special mention for music exams..unless maybe they published results gained through one of the school music tutors rather than privately.

At my school we got a mention once, all the students had got distinctions, but i think the music department must have pushed even to get that because it was only the woodwind teacher and its never been in again. It always seems annoying that they only wheel out the musical side for a termly/bi-annual concert and then ignore it the rest of the time, bit like the nutty auntie mentality.

I always found the most annoying thing the lack of any academic recognition though. They're quite happy to trumpet a winning football/basketball team, delighted to reel off the percentage of passes/As but when it comes down to recognising individuals, 5As, 100% even just doing well in school assessments they don't get a mention, except numerically e.g. 12 straight As this year. Its all part of the inclusiveness thing, obviously, and I'm not entirely against the principal of it but the best way of making less able students feel good about their work/themselves isn't by bringing everyone else down to levels of mediocrity.

Our Music Service actually send the results out to the childrens schools, not that much is made of them in our experience after that.

Excel on the football field and you are also "cool" whereas clearly you do the same in music you are "sad", or a nerd or whatever the appropriate term is these days.

All (state) schools are all supposed to have a "gifted and talented" programme these days, but many seem not to - perhaps because they don't want to make difficult decisions and risk upsetting people who aren't included, or because they seem to have fundamental objections to classifying children in this way or perhaps simply (as in the case of my children's primary, they just haven't got round to it).

I wouldn't have, as a child. I was always bad at running etc and hated it even before I became ill.

For the children I teach at our local primary school, I write a list of all their exam successes each term with some 'well done' comments, and get the secretary to include it in the newsletter - they've always been very happy to do this.

I find primary schools are supportive. All the ones I teach at present the certificates in assembly & some mention it in newsletters. Some are also happy to present certificates for children who learn outside school, whether it's music or any other activity.

On the whole, it seems it's the primary schools in our area that announce the results in their assemblies. They often also ask the pupils to perform their pieces in front of the school. Same for their festival results. Alas, when they get to their secondary schools there's no mention in newsletters like there is for sport. However, these secondary school pupils wouldn't get anything like the good results in their GCSE's were it not for their performances. In several music GCSE exam boards, up to 40% of their result is due to their performance, which is the responsibility of the private/peripatetic teacher and pupil working together, and often the pupil will play a piece they've played in their exam. Again, still no mention! One of my pupil's passed her Grade 7 exam with distinction last term and got no praise from school - even though she used one of these pieces in her GCSE Performance and gained an A* with plenty of recognition for that. I rest my case!

My kids' primary school never took an interest, be it music or ballet - but, as others have indicated, the sports always got mind-numbing blow-by-blow coverage in the newsletters - and always a mention for the team members who had excelled, which rather dispels the idea of inclusiveness...the only time I can remember a performing arts achievement being mentioned was when one of the boys wrote (he had to ask if he could do this) a small piece about how he'd auditioned for (and got) a junior associateship with Scottish Ballet; but lots of the girls do ballet exams and never get a look-in on that newsletter .

Curiously enough, my own high school took rather too much interest in the music exams, always taking the credit for the achievements of the pupils who had private lessons, and boosting its own image from them. I still think it is better to note the successes kids have though - why shouldn't those who have worked hard be acknowledged?

And yes, I'm another one who shouldn't get started on the equality/inclusion issue. Equality of access to education means making the most of the potential of every child, not dragging everyone towards the mean, or even worse, to the level 75% can achieve...

Children in school are generally not encouraged to be individuals. They stand in line, run with the team on the pitch, are compared to the average, and are conditioned into the crowd mentality. Musical achievement is an individual thing, and as such is often viewed with lack of understanding, mild disdain - or, at worst, the individual is a 'nerd'.

One very noteable exception to this that I've come across is in a local 'special' school, where individuality seems to be nurtured above all else. My pupil who goes there seems to have enormous repect for others and seems to receive the same respect from the teachers and other pupils. He's currently between grade 2 and 3 on piano, and is given simplified versions of the accompaniments for the choir just because he shows an interest. He's been allowed to have a go at conducting, is allowed to play regularly for the class, and comes to me with stories about how everyone was looking at another child's artwork that day, for instance, and decribes how fantastic it was. It would be great if all schools were more like this.

Would this be a Steiner school, by any chance? My daughter went to one when we lived abroad and I also taught some children who went to Steiner schools - the difference in attitude (in every way) is amazing.

That's a wonderful school Dulciana. Thank you for telling us about it.

One of my students, a boy of 15, whose voice has just settled, and who wanted to do performing arts at college, has just given up due to the micky-taking (bullying?) at school over it. Last year I rearranged his lesson so he could do rugby after school, to prove his masculinity......
What a sad society we live in. I remember being the object of nasty talk at school because of my singing. Being a very shy child, I gave up music at school as a result, though kept up private singing and piano lessons, and took it up seriously again in my 20s, going to a conservatoire in my 30s. What time I wasted in the inbetween years - all due to the sneers from my "friends".

I could be wrong but I assumed Dulciana was talking about a special school as in a school for children outside of the usual schooling system: due to physical or mental disability or whatever.

Could be wrong though, but that is how I read it...

No, it's a Steiner school. I don't like being too specific in case people I'm talking about recognise themselves here, but I can't just leave it having given the wrong impression to you either! I know I'm not saying anything I'd be embarrassed about here, but I've given off about pupils and parents elsewhere, and don't want people who realise I'm me going off to read my other posts and finding that I'm fuming over so-and-so not paying bills, for example, cos they'll know who I'm talking about!

Sorry Sarah!

I am certainly very attracted by everything I know about Steiner education. A friend of mine taught in one once and just loved it - she said the students were soooo confident and their individuality had been nurtured to a very high degree.

I so agree with all that's been said in this thread...

Oops, OK! Sorry!

We're on a new page now, so that's probably okay!

We need an emoticon for "foot in mouth disease"

Anyway... back to the topic...

Digby; a question, If you have three higher level qualifications e.g 2 grade 6's and one grade 8, do all these add up to UCAS points or just the one grade 8?

I've already PMd Dulciana, but wanted to add to you Cyrilla that my daughter went to a Steiner school in Norway when she was 16 and it completely changed her life. She went from being the odd one out at her regular school - the only "foreign" student and the only "musical" one - to being in an environment where every child mattered and their individual talents were appreciated. She became involved in many wonderful performances and ended up singing the lead role in the opera her class performed during her last year, which was taken on tour to several countries. It was an amazing 3 years and we are so grateful to the person who suggested she might do well there!

Aww, jenny, I am so pleased to hear about your daughter - though not surprised, as this is not the first story of this kind that I've heard.

An ex-boyfriend of mine educated all three of his children in the States at Steiner schools and was very happy (because they were!).

This interest of mine is sort of connected with Big Plan #2...

I am teaching 5 graded students in a fast track GCSE music after school club. They are all years 8 and 9. By next July, I am confident that their overall knowledge along with their perfomance competence will secure them all with good graded GCSEs. I am thrusting these students into the school's public eye. This IS inclusion. This IS differentiation. These students will receive praise. These students with grade 4,5,6, will seperate the 'wheat from the chaff'.



But I don't just mean schools. I have issues with a government that wants to see GCSE results, but while lauding music as something important, shows no interest in a serious hard studied for exam result as part of the music curriculum. Does that make sense?

If they are on the same instrument then they only take the highest grade. I think if they're on different instruments then you would receive credit for each of them. However a lot of universities don't put offers into points terms, they just list the qualifications required and few if any require a graded exam. There are also some places which don't count them anyway i think, the points are just recommended.
A lot of universities do like to see them as an extra especially in more competitive courses.

Hmm that seems a bit unfair that your students' ABRSM success wasn't mentioned/celebrated anywhere. In our school people do get mentioned for achievements in assembly and things like that, but only if you go and tell the head of community/house. But in saying that I have never heard of anyone getting congratulated for music exam success....it's mostly sporting, and often things that have happened in school.

yup!

The primary aged pupils I teach get their certificates in schools. However, my own daughter goes to a different school and that school doesn't seem the slightest bit interested in her achievements in dancing or music exams. She is Grade 3 standard in the violin and in Yr 4. She has lessons out of school and had never been asked to play her violin in any school concert or carol service. However, the school does wider opportunities music and she gets to play "concerts' with her class on the trombone/flute etc (a different instrument every year). It's almost because she's pretty good for her age on the violin that she shouldn't play as not everyone has had the chance to have lessons so it would be showing off!!! She is the only one in her school (bar one of my private pupils ) who has exams in music... so I think it is considered elitist. She did take her violin last year to play and played to her class (and the teacher in charge of music). The comment I had was "Is she going to become a music teacher?" . I said "Probably not" and a teaching assistant made a comment to suggest that she thought if my daughter wasn't going to take up music as a career why are we encouraging her to play and practice?

In my eldest child's (private) secondary school, you get your music certificates at Prizegiving if you have lessona in school. My daughter doesn't- so she'll get no recognition for her Grade 3 and 4 distictions she got last school year!!!!
It is so silly!!!

I am a Governor of a school andI have been on "Gifted and Talented" training. I know that all state schools are supposed to have a gifted and talented register where even out of school achievements are recorded. So all state schools should be recording music and dancing exams, any sporting achievements outside of school if they are talented at something.
To be considered talented or gifted... you are supposed to be in the top 10% of your year group. So if in your school, 10% of the children learn musical instruments you will be "talented" in that instrument!!!and your exam marks should be recorded on the G+T register

On reading this thread I realised that even our county music service no longer celebrates pupils' success in grade exams, so I thought I'd ask why. This is the rather formal reply I received today:

"Thank you for your email.

The publication of examination results ceased at the time when it was decided to rationalize the old music centre newsletters into a county wide publication in a new, vibrant and modern format. However, I would point out that we do publish details of those pupil who have achieved notable success - for example in the Summer Term Newsletter we wrote of two current pupils who had both achieved places in National Orchestras.


It is also worth noting that the agreement of every parent would have to be sought before we could publish a student's name which would entail significant administrative effort.

We also do not wish to put pressure on children to take exams as we believe music should primarily be an enjoyable activity. For some children, the pressure of exams is a distraction and at worst can lead to a child withdrawing from lessons

Exams are just one method of identifying achievement and can serve as a benchmark of success. Maestros ensures that we offer other forms of music making to recognise achievement; i.e. ensemble membership, concerts and workshops. This facilitates an opportunity to reach and involve a greater number of students, thus demonstrating our belief that music making should be accessible to all.

It is for these reasons that children are not entered for examinations as a matter of course. However, where parents are anxious that children should work toward their grades, our teachers are always willing to prepare them for exams.

Kind regards"

So, apparently, in order that "music making should be accessible to all" exam results have to be kept under wraps!

And can I add yet another nor me!

I was once hauled over the coals for starting a recorder group to which all the children in the class didn't come. It was decreed to be unfair - even for those who didn't want to come!

I have sent good recorder players up to secondary school, who, once in a class with others who couldn't play, pretended they couldn't. It was not politically correct to have had private recorder lessons.

I totally agree, David. Most of the reply from Berkshire Maestros was a load of pompous rubbish IMO. It's great that two of their youngsters have made it to the National Orchestras, but I don't think celebrating that is any substitute for saying, "Well done to all those who have passed exams this term" and publishing a list of names and grades. Why shouldn't children get recognition for these achievements, even if we accept that "Exams are just one method of identifying achievement"?

It's the same mentality that means the child who comes first in sportsday gets the same prize and recognition as the one who finishes last

A pupil told me about his sportsday and I asked if he won anything, to which he looked confused and said "everyone wins!"... That doesn't make any sense! If you are running a race how can you ignore the fact that someone must have crossed the finish line first?! Or did they all have to run at the same speed perhaps?

Sad. Can't think of any other word.

Perhaps some Heads should be sent on some commom sense courses instead of some of the ones they do get sent on.

Our school choir used to easy to get into, and attitudes were apathetic, until one year, by sheer chance, we did particularly well at a few public events, after which the conductor decided to limit the intake. Never did so many people want to be members of the choir. Success breeds success and stimulates interest.

This may be a bit off topic - but there is so much today that seems to suffer from lack of common sense

Has anyone else noticed that there seems to be a culture of what I can only describe as self-appointed best? Where the child is not taught that they wil not always be the best at everything. I don't blame the kids sometimes it's down to parents. This happened alot at my daughter's primary and it was a mixture of home and school. Perhaps it's a spinoff of the keeping everyone equal/not celebrating success culture.

I think it's ONLY once the child realises that they can't match the best that they will really do justice to themselves. Some hear of others reaching Grade 1 within a certain time-scale and assume that they can do the same - and then become very disheartened when this doesn't happen. In some ways I suppose this is why it is the attitude of some schools not to 'celebrate success', but the problem is not in allowing the high flyers to be recognised; the problem lies in the slower child not being aware that everyone is different. It may well be that the slower-moving child will perfect pieces of music to an ultimately higher standard than the one who learns exceptionally quickly, or may be naturally better at aural tests - but there will be something in there that's worthy of special praise, and the school/the parents/the teacher should not be simply focussing on certificates with this slower child. His sense of achievement will come from the fact that he has personally improved upon something specific in, say, the last few weeks, rather than the fact that he has acquired a certain certificate before somebody else. And he should be taught that perfection in an easy piece is more important than playing a difficult piece in a mediocre way.

However this does need careful handling on the part of the teacher - and parent. Not to mention a certain amount of maturity in the child. A love of the music, and a love of learning it for its own sake needs to be present. Too many youngsters are pushed into things with a view to comparative achievement rather than because the child will gain something unquantifiable. (Is that a word...? ) And it is only once this child realises that he is doing this 'for himself' that he will be able to deal with manageable goals and truly achieve. And sometimes it is these pupils who can surprise us all as time goes by, as a positive attitude, and staying power, can be worth more than oodles of natural talent in the early stages.

So yes, we should celebrate success - and we should also be realistic with those to whom it won't come easily. Such is life, and the sooner we learn to deal with that the better.

I agree Dulciana. I suppose because we are non musical parents we've never had any conception of where our child ought to be. Thankfully we didn't have enough knowledge in the early stages to measure against anyone (still don't).

I can see how my original post could be applied to music but I was meaning generally. I don't think I explained very well. In my daughters' Primary there were always people who expected to be best at everything. To give an idea into what I mean... my daughter danced from being tiny, she's had loads of experience, worked hard and it's something she enjoys. She gave up dancing competitively a couple of years ago on leaving her old dance school. A few months back she joined a dance group with some of her school friends. One of the girls finds it hard to accept that my girl finds it easier to pick up new steps etc. I don't think my child's better it's something she's had more practice at. The girl who finds it difficult is academically able and just isn't use to not being the best at something (in her case I think it's come more from primary school). This is only an example that I can think of this moment but I'm sure other people will have come across this situation due to these circumstances or because of those Dulciana described.

I have always had this belief that those who start off best don't always maintain their position. I think the ones that work and develop strategies to learn will do better in the long run.

Sorry