OK, rant time.

I have just taken on six new previously-taught pupils. Four have just started secondary school (where I'm, teaching them), and the other two are still at primary school but have left their peri because they weren't progressing, and are now having lessons with me in my home.

ALL have them have been badly taught and I feel in despair at all the remedial work I'm having to do. They all have terrible bow holds, bad left hand position, and all play out of tune!!! All their fingers go out of tune at different times - first finger, second finger and third finger!

I think part of the problem is the rush to get them playing tunes from the earliest opportunity - a basically 'sod the bow hold and the intonation - lets just get them going' attitude on the part of the primary school peris. Perhaps they're also under pressure from the Music Service to get them through certain exams by a certain time? Revealingly, the ones who've just started secondary school have all done their Grade One but got marks like 102 and 103! AAAAARRRGHHHH!!!!!!!

I've only just started teaching complete beginners in primary schools this term - I have four - and aim to get it right, however slowly we have to go. SO much damage can be done by rushing things with the violin in the early stages and you can wreck a child's posture, potential for good intonation etc for life if you get it wrong in these early stages. But will this four be patient enough to go slowly?

This remains to be seen and I shall keep you posted. So far I've had two lessons with them and all we've done is learn the names of the parts of the violin and pluck some simple rhythms on the D string, using notation and singing. They're all practising like mad, apparently - I guess it's the novelty! I'm not going to introduce the bow until they've started learning some solfah, can sing in tune and place fingers to match the sounds.

I'm praying they'll be happy to move this slowly!

But that doesn't help me with the remedial six, and I just don't know how I'm going to sort them all out - their bad habits are so entrenched.

It's very hard to get a balance on this isn't it?

I too would like to go slowly and get it right. But they so much want to play tunes...

My compromise is that when I'm teaching groups I use a book with a backing track CD (Fiddle Time Joggers) and use the 10 open string tunes LOADS while making sure of good bow holds.

Then when I'm doing left hand things - simple soh/mi pitched pieces to begin with I focus on accurate pitch above all else. I ignore the horrible bow holds. It's very difficult to do this but in a group there is so much pressure on time.

Seems to work out overall. I get many more quitters from my groups than from individual lessons though. Fundamentally I think it's a mistake to teach violin just in groups but if it's that opportunity or nothing....

Can't comment on violin teaching itself, I'm not a string player. But I can join the rant!

Peris seem under so much pressure to get children playing, and to cover the costs that they don't have time to get it right. I was horrified to hear that in a local primary school, there weren't enough takers for flute in Years 5 and 6 that they opened the invitation to Years 3 and 4. One child who is going to be learning is far too small, it'll set her up for all sorts of problems and possible injuries.

I never teach flute to a child until they are big enough to hold the flute in the proper position comfortably, I ignore protests from ambitious parents who want their children to start at seven or eight.

Last week I was asked for advice on a violin supplied to a beginner at at primary school. The parent knows I'm not a string player, but also knows that my daughter plays violin and that I might have some idea about them.

The violin needed, as my father would have said, "a good box of matches". Cracked, dented, tuning pegs wouldn't stay in place so impossible to tune, one missing fine tuning screw-thingy, bow trailing broken hairs, case too battered to close properly. Supplied by our County Music Service, how on earth is a child supposed to be inspired by that?

Ok, I'll stop moaning and let someone more qualified answer instead.

It's not just violin this happens with. I get countless wind players who need remedial work.

But in defence of peri teachers (and I know you are one too) a lot of the problems are the conditions ie groups, bad teaching rooms, lack of contact with parents etc. Also going too slowly can bore some people to the point of stopping. With woodwind it's things like embouchure, tonguing, breathing. With some poeple I have pressed on and things have sorted out in the end. There is a difference between teaching good technique and preventing bad from taking root.

I don't condone poor teaching, but it's a hard decision to make, and even harder when people want to see tangible progress.



I know a teacher who regularly teaches flute from 7/8, and does loads of singing games, clapping, what they can on the flute. I started a couple of primary 5s last year who were quite small but we just did what they could, which was basically head, left hand keys, and short playing periods only. Each to their own I suppose.

Oh god, the instrument thing! In the school where I've just taken on four beginners (teaching them in pairs for half an hour each pair), four school violins were provided but one problem - they all need a 1/2 sized violin but two of the violins are 3/4 sized! I have a 1/2 sized violin at home to sell (owner wants £40 for violin, case, bow, shoulder rest), but the school say they cannot afford this, neither can the parents!

What to do? For now I've got them both on the 3/4 sized violins but when they need to get all their fingers on the strings they're not going to be able to!

In one of the secondary schools I've just taken on a viola student. She's 11 and has a huge, full-sized viola. She can't reach all the notes so plays really flat, and told me yesterday she only started playing viola because there weren't any violins in the primary school cupboard at the time! I even asked her if she'd like to switch to violin but she says it's too late (she's been 'playing' viola for three years).

Rant, rant, rant...

I too can identify with the problem, Violinia....

I am getting more and more disgruntled (grumpy old Bag). In particular I inherit pupes who have "done" Grade 3 - i.e: 3 OKish pieces, failed scales, no ability to sight-read and aural, er, isn't that the funny stuff you do just a week beofre the exam.....??? Oh and "technique"....er?????

The REAL problem is then having to explain to the parents why said pupe is at least 18 months away from Grade 4 whilst Yours Truly PATIENTLY fills the gaps....I tell you, it rattles my cat-basket something rotten

There ARE no short-cuts when it comes to learning an instrument....bah bah BAHHHHHHHHHH

Cheesed off Old Bag is now going to sup copious amounts of red in HOT bath before dining infront of the Sheer Talent that is the X-Factor....

Mutters....

Bag xx

I teach piano for a music service in 4 primary schools & one secondary & can identify with some of the problems. Luckily there is no pressure from the music service to put pupils in for exams - the only pressure comes from parents, but the music service are very supportive in the rare cases when a parent complains I'm not getting them through quickly enough. I do my best to give them a good foundation & don't put them in for exams until I think they're capable of doing well.

I do have problems with some of the pupils coming up to me from primary schools - there's one school in particular where i keep inheriting pupils who've passed grade 1 by 1 or 2 marks & are really nowhere near the standard I'd put in for the Prep Test even. These pupils really need taking back to the beginning, but it would be too demoralising for them. I've noticed over the last few years that those pupils who start with me from scratch in year 7 or 8 often far surpass those who come up from primary school with their scraped grade 1. They can learn very rapidly at that age & are so much better off without bad habits.

I know this is off topic....At the end of the day a semi decent starter instrument isn't that expensive and if they were to look round surely they could get something second hand that they could sell on again for the same price. I don't get parents who have problems in spending a few pounds on something which their children could get a lifetime of pleasure from. Wonder how many of them buy designer trainers and computer games?

I so agree with you here - a decent pair of football boots, which won't last long as the lad grows, are happily provided by parents for sporty children, so I don't think £40 is excessive for a violin you can easily sell on when the child eventually outgrows it.

If the school really can't afford £40 I'm surprised they don't approach the PTA for money, as when I've been involved with PTAs there's often been money raised which wasn't earmarked for anything in particular. Just not a music-supporting Head, I suspect!

It's amazing what people can "afford" when it matters enough to them. Unless it's in an area of complete poverty (of which a few exist in my area) £40 for a decent instrument can hardly hurt. If it is genuine poverty surely the school won't hurt for a few quid on something that would help their pupils.

Back on topic, I can identify with the mediocre "grade x passes" at the expense of learning properly, but think pragmatically. Someone not so musical will at some point want to see progress being made, be it parents, headteachers, music service statisticians, especially anyone paying the teachers. It's much easier for them to see progress as moving through the grades, however this is done, not that the kids are loving the instrument and developing a great technique and musical awareness, even though on the same grade since last year. That's how it works in schools, like it or not. Harmful in many cases, but it's the real world. And all this before I get started on the conditions peris have to work in.

Then of course there may be people doing exams for school, be it GCSE, A level, Standard Grade, Higher, who simply have to play pieces labelled a certain grade, often with not enough time to build up properly.

I'm not excusing shoddy teaching, just pointing out the circumstances it happens in.

You will not be surprised to learn Bag that I have been there, seen it, and have acquired an extensive wardrobe of T-shirts.

Poor (in particular) right hand position on flute, biting single-reed embouchure, overblowing on single reeds, poor (often slouching) posture, non-counting pupils, I could go on...

I *think* woodwind players get to do simple tunes before violinists and the like because, (and do correct me violinists if I'm wrong here) clarinettists/flautists/saxophonists tend to initially learn notes that are fairly close together in pitch (C, D, E, F, G or F, G, A, B, C or similar), which lend themselves to playing tunes rather more than the notes on open strings on a violin/'cello.

Still, there's never any excuse for teaching bad technique. Whatever situation you're in....

For the record, the deputy head in this school, who is the person I mainly deal with, and is also really lovely, tells me they simply don't have the money to buy any more violins, period. They bought eight last year and that was that. I said, look I've got this violin for £40, bow, case and shoulder rest included, and she said she's going to look into getting two from a shop that can do a special deal - possibly £25 each. So I have to wait another week to find out. She's also going to ask one of the parents if they can afford £40 for this violin but she's not holding out much hope.

I suppose there's also the fact that children can have sudden short-lived enthusiasms, after which you're stuck with a violin the child no longer wants, and no idea how to sell it.

But on the other hand, I happen to know for a fact that some of these families who claim dire poverty also have wide-screen TV's, computers, expensive mobiles and holidays in Barbados.

It's all about priorities.

Ah well, Violinia, at my sons' primary school, nobody was allowed to play the violins in the music cupboard, because the music teacher couldn't play stringed instruments, and it "wasn't fair" for only the children who already had private lessons to be the only ones able to play.

But that was really just tripe, because the older children in band taught the younger children, and the music teacher rarely taught any instrumental techniques - if peer teaching was OK for other instruments, it would be no better or worse for violin.

The music teacher didn't want to spend any of the music budget on maintenance or supplies for non-band instruments - because the school's musical reputation basically equalled their standing in the regional school choral and band competitions! Heigh ho!

Going back to the teaching: As much as I can sympathise with all who have inherited pupils from bad teachers, don't forget the possibility that the pupil may have lapsed back into their own bad habits in the intervening period. Clearly, if the pupil only finished with the previous teacher a couple of weeks before their first appointment with "one of us" then you can obviously tell a lot about the way they were taught, but with most people "regression to the mean" can happen in quite a short time without guidance. Of course, with an excellent teacher or pupil the good things taught (or innately there) will be more robust.

Which leads me to a potentially worrying question: What proportion of the teachers out there do we consider to be harmfully bad (as opposed to just not particularly inspiring but satisfactorily sound in matters of technique)?

And it's not always easy to tell anyway.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to have had students who despite my best efforts just won't do things the way I'm trying to teach them. This includes both basic theory (even note reading) to general technique issues. It just doesn't seem important to them to do so.
If some of these move to other teachers it will seem as though I've been teaching them badly (or not at all ).

And it's not always easy to tell anyway.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to have had students who despite my best efforts just won't do things the way I'm trying to teach them.

Oh yes, I had one this week. "My mum showed me an easier way to hold the bow"

Thanks mum.

I agree entirely with jon and sbhoa. Surely we all have pupils of whom some will learn what you teach them and some will not. I think some teachers are too quick to judge other teachers from how the pupil plays when they transfer. Despite best efforts, some pupils simply do not do as you ask them to. Also they can change for reasons other than the teacher.

Specific example, I had a pupil on clarinet last year, while I was covering someone's maternity leave, who would not tongue at all, while others did it right away. I decided to move on with 3 note tunes and develop other areas of playing instead of boring her to stopping by making her tongue the first note before moving on. Other things did improve, like tone, counting, and at least we were moving forward instead of dwelling on one little thing. About 8 weeks with her, the tonguing suddenly happened, and became a natural part of playing. Suppose the other teacher had come back that same week, and saw I had ignored tonguing and pressed on. It would be very easy to say I was wrong and she sorted tonguing out, but it was simply the pupil took time to get it right.

We can't make assumptions about other teachers just for how someone plays when they inherit them from said teacher. It happens too often. Yes there are bad teachers out there, but there are also good ones who have struggling or lazy pupils. Don't be too hard on them.

... There are also students who do exactly what their teachers tell them to, only to find out at a later date that the technique they have been taught is totally wrong. I have experienced this more than once Yes, some teachers have to teach under much less pleasant conditions than others, but it doesn't change the fact that some teachers don't do their jobs properly.

Yes, that is also true...... but you might never find out which is which....

*crosses fingers in the hope that I'm in the right category*

You do if you're taught by them (sometimes too late )

Nothing to do with conditions. The example I give was purely the ability of the pupil in question (and had her on her own each week), read carefully. Much as we would love everyone to pick up our own wonderful technique from the word go, it doesn't happen that way.



Sadly true, but I think one answer is more often assumed.

No, of course it's nothing to do with conditions and I didn't say it was. My point was actually partly that the conditions are not that relevant if a teach simply doesn't know what they are talking about.

I have had teachers, and surely we all know that there are teachers out there, who simply shouldn't be teaching certain instruments. And I'm not talking about not picking up good technique, I am talking about actually teaching technique which is incorrect. (I have had both private and peri teachers who've done that. I don't think being a peri excuses it any more than I would be happy if a private teacher taught me badly. I have nothing against peris particularly - one of my best teachers taught me as a peri, and my all time best teacher taught others as a peri (and got great results) though I was lucky enough to have her for private lessons.)

You can't always blame bad technique on the teacher, sure, but you certainly can't always blame it on the student either. A student who is incredibly studious will actually suffer more in some ways with a bad teacher, because they will dutifully practise all they have been taught. If they have been taught badly, those things are very hard to unlearn.

I think there is something wrong when I consistently inherit pupils ( not just once or twice) with grade 1 around 101 marks from a particular teacher & never any with an even reasonable mark. The pupils themselves seem keen enough & do respond to my teaching. I can't help thinking they haven't been taught very well & they've been put in for grade 1 before they're ready.

Quite. I've just inherited three from the same teacher. They've all just done Grade 1 and all just scraped a pass. They had already started working on Grade 2 which I think is plain nuts. I'm putting them all on a very user-friendly quite elementary method and am going to spend the next term sorting out their technique before we even glance at Grade 2.

And hey - if they start moving forward with a nice technique, they could even skip Grade 2 and go straight to Grade 3 as long as they cover Grade 2 scales in the meantime. I'm not one for plodding through all the Grades - far too tedious when there's so much other repertoire out there to be enjoyed!

I am a violin teacher and have been sorting out dodgy technique in pupils that I have acquired for over twenty five years and it can be very depressing.

Before I go any further, I was a pupil of Sheila Nelson for a time and later on I did some of my violin teaching training with her too. This might give an idea of part of my ethos/methods.

I do put them onto the bow from lesson one or two. I spend half of each lesson on bow technique once they get going a bit until about grade 2. The first few lessons are about instrument geography, and I do use pizz to teach them where the strings are generally using Stepping Stones or something of the sort for that to start with. Alongside that I think bow technique/ sound are the fundamental thing to get right early on. A good sound can be achieved surprisingly quickly provided the instrument isn't too awful! I do lots of rhythm work and for primary beginners use Caroline Lumsden's Musicland which is the best little book I know for a brilliant grounding in bowing.For those that can't afford much music I write my own stuff based on the above. They all start middle of the bow rhythm pattern bowing exercises from lesson 2. Fish and chips, their own name, peanut butter sandwiches- the possibilities are endless. I have a range of accompaniments which I put to the open string bowing work so that it souns tuneful- I stand them so that I can see them whilst I play the piano.
If there isn't a piano the accompaniments can be recorded. personally, I won't teach if there isn't a piano but I realise that not everyone has that choice.Putting accompaniments in from the beginning makes it all seem more tuneful and there is less pressure to move on too quickly.

For the left hand I continually put them into the correct position until they get the hang or realise the only way to stop me moaning is to make an effort with it!! I also use eggs in the hand- either real or rubber. This works quite well. I finish off Stepping Stones and use Red Parrot which is very good for getting them to read the music and play in tune.

If I have to do remedial work then I start the bowing work as I would for a complete beginner. It can take ages. I always sort that out first whilst letting them play tunes or they would switch off completely. Once I have sorted out the bow I move on to the left hand.

Often the problems are due to bad teaching, sometimes not. There are always one or two who just don't get things right however hard you try. Sometimes it isn't the right instrument for them, maybe they are just very slow off the starting block. That being said, there is some very dodgy teaching out there!C onditions can come into it. Some years ago I had to teach 4 at a time in a converted broom cupboard. Another time in an old bathroom. No room for a chair so had to sit on the bidet!! The point is that it was not physically possible for the kids to hold their instruments properly and they all had terrible technique. Their new teacher probably thought it was my teaching!
I will finish by saying the most important thing is not to tell the kids they have been taught wrongly. It is demoralising and they probably trusted their previous teacher, good or bad. I tell them they are ready to learn new things that are a bit more complicated. It makes them feel good about themselves and more likely to cooperate.

Just one other point: do find out how many previous teachers new pupils have had. I started teaching at a new school a year ago. The two most advanced players were working towards Grade 5, both aged 12 when I began teaching them. One had had five previous teachers: the other six. It has taken most of this year for me to find the gaps in their knowledge and to build their confidence, both in their playing, and in my continuing presence.

You certainly know what you're talking about, and I think Sheila Nelson's brilliant. I went on one of her 'Stringwise' teaching courses a couple of years ago and spent 4 days solid with her. Her methods come from Paul Rolland and are really good. My old violin teacher plays in her string quartet!

Out of interest, have you ever been able to turn an inherited student's terrible bowing around completely? I've managed it with home pupils where you have contact with parents, can show them what you're doing and rope them in to watch over practice, but with school-based pupils I find this very hard.

I'm currently taking two inherited school-based pupils back to the beginning with their bow-holds, using Sheila Nelson's 'incy wincy spider', 'windscreen wipers', 'stir the witch's pot', '123 blast-off' etc etc and it's beginning to work but old habits die very hard, especially when they've been entrenched for three years or more.

I learned from those books when they were photocopied pages from the original manuscript because caroline hadn't had them printed yet


I had a new violin teacher almost every year in secondary school. I think most of them were reasonable teachers but we hardly had a chance and neither did they

In praise of peri.s:

Hello teachers, I can understand your frustrations when faced with badly-taught primary pupil, but after reading the rather depressing stories here, I thought you needed a positive one.

My daughter started violin at 7, after bringing home another of those " We have a club..." letters from school, and thought she would have a go. Started as a 10 minute lesson, then 15 the next year, and now has 20 minutes once a week. This lesson time is sometimes dented by the time taken to fetch-the-next-child, or other happening within the school day. She has had lessons in the foyer, the library, and even in the kitchen!

However, from this meagre instruction time, the teacher has managed to bring out her musical side, usually taking an exam each year, and passing grade 5 last Summer. And this is not a one-off as several pupils have left primary with good exam results. She is now in year 6 and playing pieces that don't even fit into the 20 minutes lesson, so has to learn them bit by bit!

I sometimes pity peri teachers who have to contend with children's many other interests. I've often said to daughter that I wonder how good she could be if she actually practiced!! ( she usually only manages 2 x 3/4 hour per week, unless there's an exam coming up... but don't let on!)

So sometimes the peri route DOES work. I'm not musical, and she would never have had the chance to play if it hadn't been for the local music service. The music lessons can be a bit awkward when they clash with acedemic lessons (or in the case of this year, smack in the middle of P.E.!) but it can be a great way to start.

Brilliant idea - will put the phrase into my vocabulary.

I'm a peri myself & many of my pupils get very good results. I also know a lot of very good peris teaching many different instruments. It's just one or two who seem to be a disaster, with the continual scraped grade 1s. It's strange that we never seem to meet these teachers - they never seem to be at INSET or belong to EPTA or ISM or be generally involved in the local musical community.

Some well meaning but ill informed relative no doubt

My personal rant-inducing situation is when a kid is taught by someone who *barely plays the instrument* and has no idea what they're doing...

ANd being an oboist, that usually means I inherit kids who've been taught BY A FLAUTIST. AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!

This is usually a total disaster - awful breathing, kid been given reeds that are way too hard for them, etc etc. Yes okay, the fingering for both instruments is vaguely similar and they both involve blowing, but they are still *different*. I have inherited an 11 year old this term in this category and we are basically having to start all over again. Luckily she's being patient so far.

Plea to all woodwind players out there: please please please don't teach an instrument that's not your own unless you're pretty competent on it yourself.....

In an ideal world yes, but many are given no option. I would not have taught bassoon last year if I could have avoided it (only one), and I'm so glad I've not had oboe pupils. I had no problem teaching flute though despite being a single reed specialist.

Generic teaching is part of the profession, that there is no way round without so much expense, especially when music is not high priority in the state sector. Something non peris need to understand and except.

Okay, fair enough, if the music service expects you to then I suppose there's not much you can do. BUT at the very least, couldn't one expect the teacher to familiarise themselves with the instrument and its technique, talk to someone who has it as their first instrument - and flipping well buy an appropriate book?! This kid didn't have so much as Abracadabra or Tune a Day, after playing for a year! The teacher had just made up (unsuitable) tunes on manuscript!!

The peri route can work, yes, but only if the pupil practises!




Some parents are shocked and horrified if you send a message back that they need to buy a book. It would help if they were told that the term's fees aren't the only thing they're going to have to pay out for, but they're going to have to buy at least one or two books every year, as well as strings when they break or wear out AND exam fees.

However, if you told them this at the outset most of them would probably just not let their child take up the violin.

The reaction of some school parents when you request money for books is probably the reason some peris resort to writing their own stuff on manuscript paper.

Not true in this particular case though - I've just bought three new books for her and there have been no complaints at all. The mum is a teacher herself so is generally supportive.

One of the reasons I won't work for the local music service is that I'd be expected to teach instruments I don't play. Not only would this not interest me, I think it's tantamount to cheating the pupils and the parents.

It was suggested that I got "a few" clarinet lessons once, so I could teach the instrument. I was also told that the fingering on an oboe is similar to that on a flute, I'd have no problems teaching that. Hmm.

On the other hand, a parent who has been paying me to teach her daughter recorder in school for 3 years overheard me playing something of a fairly high standard and said "oh, I didn't know you actually played the recorder". Whatever did she expect?

Maybe she thought the recorder is just something that parents are made to go out and buy in order that their kids can make a horrible noise with it - i.e. not a real instrument. Some people do have an unfortunate attitude to the recorder, as I discovered upon telling people that I was taking it up again as an adult, just for pleasure ('for pleasure?').

It's true, some parents are great and the ones who are teachers tend to be particularly well-organised, I've noticed! But some families do live in deprived areas and just don't have the extra resources for books, and in those cases the teacher just has to improvise by writing things out him/herself, especially as photo-copying is a no-no.

IMO there isn't a problem with writing stuff out on manuscript - but it becomes a problem if the music that is being written is unsuitable which I believe is Claire's beef with the former teacher?

I also realise that so many (too many!) teachers are made to teach instruments that they barely play, or don't really play at all. However, some teachers make the effort to teach to the best of their ability/find out all they can about the proper technique/are honest with their students about when it's time to move on to a specialised teacher and so on... whereas others clearly don't and aren't

It's a great disservice to so many students (and indeed many teachers) that teachers are teaching things that are frequently not their specialism, and sometimes instruments that they don't play at all It is such a shame that it's seen as "OK" for beginners when they are the ones who need to be taught good habits from the start...

Exactly!

In that case why not add about 20p to the lesson fees to cover the starter book and provide it from the music service. Same with maybe one more book (repertoire book). Then again, it's hard to imagine one who can "afford" all the lessons but not one or two books you need for them. I try to limit books to be bought however wealthy I think my pupils/parents are.

I've never had any problems getting parents to buy books. In some schools, they are just told what to get & in others the books are supplied & a bill is sent to the parents. No-one has ever objected to this, apart from an occasional parent who feels the book supplied is "too easy" for their highly gifted child.