This is a topic not just open to jazz musicians although Inthought I would post this here.
I am interested in people's views as to the extent of improviation. To what extent do you, the musicians, feel you are making 'new' music and to what extent are you re-calling patterns, melodic fragments etc. when you improvise? What goes on in your head as you improvise? Thoughts? It is something that has been in my mind having studied the Music of South Asia last year.
Ethnomusicologist
Full Version: Improvisation
This is an interesting question. On reflection, do you think the classical composers from the classical period were all wholly original? If they were, then how come there were "periods" where virtually everything from each musical period is instantly recognisable by style? Don't you think Mozart ever recalled a pattern or a melodic fragment? 
Or even Bach and Handel, God forbid?!
Improvisation and composition both contain elements of the familiar and elements of the totally new. When I improvise (jazz), I sometimes use parts of familiar patterns etc, but every now and then a totally new idea springs into my head from I don't know where, and out it comes, startling/amazing myself as well as my fellow musicians.
I have a feeling the inspirational moments occur in or from a different part of the brain - the right-hand side where creativity apparently springs from. It's a wonderful feeling when it happens, and sometimes I feel a strange sort of pressure on my left-hand side (the left governs the right and vice versa). It's more likely to happen when you're well rested and refreshed, and/or have been doing a lot of playing immediately prior, although having said that it can also happen when you're dog-tired - perhaps this is because the "thinking" part of the brain is just too tired to get in the way.
The place you're in when these moments happen is sometimes called "the zone"; perhaps the truly great composers found themselves in the zone when they composed their best works.
I sometimes wonder if too much jazz tuition can stifle the zone and make people approach jazz too theroretically. Or perhaps it's just second-rate jazz tuition. I only say this because a local (schooled) jazz musician of my acquaintance frequently plays the dullest and most formulaic solos I've ever heard. Perhaps, as an artist friend of mine likes to say, he needs to "unlearn" some of what he's learnt in order to break free.
It's a fascinating subject for sure.
Violinia
Or even Bach and Handel, God forbid?!Improvisation and composition both contain elements of the familiar and elements of the totally new. When I improvise (jazz), I sometimes use parts of familiar patterns etc, but every now and then a totally new idea springs into my head from I don't know where, and out it comes, startling/amazing myself as well as my fellow musicians.
I have a feeling the inspirational moments occur in or from a different part of the brain - the right-hand side where creativity apparently springs from. It's a wonderful feeling when it happens, and sometimes I feel a strange sort of pressure on my left-hand side (the left governs the right and vice versa). It's more likely to happen when you're well rested and refreshed, and/or have been doing a lot of playing immediately prior, although having said that it can also happen when you're dog-tired - perhaps this is because the "thinking" part of the brain is just too tired to get in the way.
The place you're in when these moments happen is sometimes called "the zone"; perhaps the truly great composers found themselves in the zone when they composed their best works.
I sometimes wonder if too much jazz tuition can stifle the zone and make people approach jazz too theroretically. Or perhaps it's just second-rate jazz tuition. I only say this because a local (schooled) jazz musician of my acquaintance frequently plays the dullest and most formulaic solos I've ever heard. Perhaps, as an artist friend of mine likes to say, he needs to "unlearn" some of what he's learnt in order to break free.
It's a fascinating subject for sure.
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| I have a feeling the inspirational moments occur in or from a different part of the brain - the right-hand side where creativity apparently springs from. It's a wonderful feeling when it happens |
This is what I mean. It is that particular instant that an idea springs to you mind that I find fascinating. I'd love to some research on the topic and apply it to the field of world musics.
| QUOTE |
| I sometimes wonder if too much jazz tuition can stifle the zone and make people approach jazz too theroretically. |
I believe this is true and I am always fascinated by how when I introduce improvisation to young pupils, who would have been playing for about 6 months, what is exactly going on in thier minds. In some of these "kiddie-sessions", I am amazaed by some pupils recollection and development of ideas. Are there any books that explore this phenomenon, academic or not?
Some great thoughts Violinia. Thanks
Hi Ethnomusicologist
(Where did you study ethnomusicology?) I've never seen any books on the subject, although I've found a few articles on the internet that mention zonish experiences - if you just put in a search for jazz improvisation using words like creativity, something should come up. We're obviously very interested in the same thing.
I'm constantly amazed when I introduce improvisation to my pupils of whatever age beginning with the youngest (7 in my case), how individual their improvisations are. They all have a different and unique way of expressing themselves and in each case you can see something of their character coming out. A very dynamic girl I teach improvises really, um, dynamically! Another more whimsical girl tends to do whimsical improvisations. An extremely creative boy (his mother's an architect and his father's a poet) plays wonderful stuff straight from that creative wellspring we've talked about.
I ran a jazz impro workshop with a string orchestra a little while back, and despite the fact that they all expressed doubt about being able to improvise at all, they all managed it by the end of the session, and the same thing happened - they all played very individually even though none of them had ever left printed notation behind before. I think they all quite surprised themselves! And one or two of them, the more quirky individuals as it happened, played very creatively; they'd obviously needed to do this for years but hadn't found a way into it before.
This is very much my sphere of interest and I'm always looking for ways to take it deeper and bring it to more people, but I've only been actually teaching impro for a couple of years (since I was inspired to by taking the CTABRSM course), although I've been improvising myself for a long time; I just hadn't worked out a way to teach it before.
How long have you been teaching impro and what got you into it? Do you improvise yourself? What do you play?
Violinia
PS In answer to the last part of your post, I think young children find it easy to improvise because improvisation if very much like play, and playing is what young children want (and need) to do; it's how they learn. Look what a young child will do with paper and paints or any creative materials; I suppose it isn't any different with music. As long as you give them a bit of structure to work within, they'll be able to do more tham just make random noises, although Suzuki recommends just giving a very young child a violin to purely play with in the beginning - it's how they familiarise themselves with the instrument.
(Where did you study ethnomusicology?) I've never seen any books on the subject, although I've found a few articles on the internet that mention zonish experiences - if you just put in a search for jazz improvisation using words like creativity, something should come up. We're obviously very interested in the same thing.
I'm constantly amazed when I introduce improvisation to my pupils of whatever age beginning with the youngest (7 in my case), how individual their improvisations are. They all have a different and unique way of expressing themselves and in each case you can see something of their character coming out. A very dynamic girl I teach improvises really, um, dynamically! Another more whimsical girl tends to do whimsical improvisations. An extremely creative boy (his mother's an architect and his father's a poet) plays wonderful stuff straight from that creative wellspring we've talked about.
I ran a jazz impro workshop with a string orchestra a little while back, and despite the fact that they all expressed doubt about being able to improvise at all, they all managed it by the end of the session, and the same thing happened - they all played very individually even though none of them had ever left printed notation behind before. I think they all quite surprised themselves! And one or two of them, the more quirky individuals as it happened, played very creatively; they'd obviously needed to do this for years but hadn't found a way into it before.
This is very much my sphere of interest and I'm always looking for ways to take it deeper and bring it to more people, but I've only been actually teaching impro for a couple of years (since I was inspired to by taking the CTABRSM course), although I've been improvising myself for a long time; I just hadn't worked out a way to teach it before.
How long have you been teaching impro and what got you into it? Do you improvise yourself? What do you play?
Violinia
PS In answer to the last part of your post, I think young children find it easy to improvise because improvisation if very much like play, and playing is what young children want (and need) to do; it's how they learn. Look what a young child will do with paper and paints or any creative materials; I suppose it isn't any different with music. As long as you give them a bit of structure to work within, they'll be able to do more tham just make random noises, although Suzuki recommends just giving a very young child a violin to purely play with in the beginning - it's how they familiarise themselves with the instrument.
Hi Violinia,
I studied at 'The School of Oriental and African Studies'. I'd like to do my Masters there soon, with an emphasis on the musics of SouthEast Asia, particularly the Philippines (-where my parents are from).
I have been teaching impro on the piano for three years now. I guess what got me into it was my organ teacher and his improviations. I then began to experiment on the organ, which I then transfered to the piano, and most recently the violin (-though my violin impro aren't as "deep" as my organ and piano ones).
Within the last three years I have been listening to various performances of pieces that I like, which have this element of improvisation in them, such as the latin-jazz piece 'Blue Bossa' as well as world musics like Indian Classical vocal music (-very interesting), and (Javanese) gamelan, performed by the Javanese as opposed to by Western musicians (-when you listen, there is a big difference in term of improviation).
So you can see I play the Piano, Organ, Violin and I sing. I'll post up the world instruments I play if you want (-don't want to bore other readers).
Many thanks. 
| QUOTE |
| Where did you study ethnomusicology? |
I studied at 'The School of Oriental and African Studies'. I'd like to do my Masters there soon, with an emphasis on the musics of SouthEast Asia, particularly the Philippines (-where my parents are from).
| QUOTE |
| How long have you been teaching impro and what got you into it? Do you improvise yourself? What do you play? |
I have been teaching impro on the piano for three years now. I guess what got me into it was my organ teacher and his improviations. I then began to experiment on the organ, which I then transfered to the piano, and most recently the violin (-though my violin impro aren't as "deep" as my organ and piano ones).
Within the last three years I have been listening to various performances of pieces that I like, which have this element of improvisation in them, such as the latin-jazz piece 'Blue Bossa' as well as world musics like Indian Classical vocal music (-very interesting), and (Javanese) gamelan, performed by the Javanese as opposed to by Western musicians (-when you listen, there is a big difference in term of improviation).
So you can see I play the Piano, Organ, Violin and I sing. I'll post up the world instruments I play if you want (-don't want to bore other readers).
Many thanks.
Perhaps it would be better to carry this on in the private messaging section - don't want to bore readers with interminable descriptions of what we do..
Interesting that you studied musical stuff at the School of Oriental and African Studies; I didn't know they covered music too.
I know nothing about gamelan (shameful I know), but do know it's being increasingly used in schools as an improvisational tool - it sounds like a fascinating instrument and I'd really like to have a go on one.
I play violin, some piano (self-taught), guitar (ditto) and accordian (ditto). Very limited compared to your vast range of instruments!
Violinia
Interesting that you studied musical stuff at the School of Oriental and African Studies; I didn't know they covered music too.
I know nothing about gamelan (shameful I know), but do know it's being increasingly used in schools as an improvisational tool - it sounds like a fascinating instrument and I'd really like to have a go on one.
I play violin, some piano (self-taught), guitar (ditto) and accordian (ditto). Very limited compared to your vast range of instruments!
Violinia
| QUOTE |
| Perhaps it would be better to carry this on in the private messaging section - don't want to bore readers with interminable descriptions of what we do.. |
Yes, I think your right. Let's do that instead.
Please don't take this off-line, or if you do give us a summary - I am fascinated!
Ethno-musicologist - I adore Debussy and know he was inspired big-time by the Gamelan- I heard it in my teens in Indonesia (or at least I assume that is what it was) but never since. Can you recommend any recordings which would help throw a light on this aspect of his inspiration?
Ethno-musicologist - I adore Debussy and know he was inspired big-time by the Gamelan- I heard it in my teens in Indonesia (or at least I assume that is what it was) but never since. Can you recommend any recordings which would help throw a light on this aspect of his inspiration?
I'm glad you find this tpoic interesting.
I really like Debussy to, and one of my dissetations was to look at the West's use and interpretation of world music. Recordings of gamelan? You can now go to places lie HMV and Virgin to find gamelan recording. Go to the World music section and search under I believe it is what they term as SouthEast Asia, and then look for Indonesia.
There should be some reocrding, which were achived field recordings but have now been release on CD. The series is called the 'Indonesia Explorer Series'. I'm going to get a copy of one of these since I myself have not heard them. The recordings at the uni library are under the JVC lable, but they are very old. There are others, but I'm not too sure what they are like. You are sure to find at least some in these stores. You can alternativley buy online.
Field recordings are good since they are as gamelan should sound. This is comparable to the way we Westeners play, which is without improvisation -though this is hard to spot if you don't understand the ways in which different instruments play 'the melody'.
If you are intersted to listen to the gamelan that Debuusy first encountered, the style of gamelan you want is Javanese Gamelan, as opposed to Balinese or Sundanese. Quick overview, Javanese Gamelan is calm and flowing, soft and gentle (most of the time) and can go on forever. Balinses Gamelan is very much loud, explosive and very bright, but does have its moments of 'calm', and is less fliud since it tends to stop and start at points.
Hope this is of help.
I really like Debussy to, and one of my dissetations was to look at the West's use and interpretation of world music. Recordings of gamelan? You can now go to places lie HMV and Virgin to find gamelan recording. Go to the World music section and search under I believe it is what they term as SouthEast Asia, and then look for Indonesia.
There should be some reocrding, which were achived field recordings but have now been release on CD. The series is called the 'Indonesia Explorer Series'. I'm going to get a copy of one of these since I myself have not heard them. The recordings at the uni library are under the JVC lable, but they are very old. There are others, but I'm not too sure what they are like. You are sure to find at least some in these stores. You can alternativley buy online.
Field recordings are good since they are as gamelan should sound. This is comparable to the way we Westeners play, which is without improvisation -though this is hard to spot if you don't understand the ways in which different instruments play 'the melody'.
If you are intersted to listen to the gamelan that Debuusy first encountered, the style of gamelan you want is Javanese Gamelan, as opposed to Balinese or Sundanese. Quick overview, Javanese Gamelan is calm and flowing, soft and gentle (most of the time) and can go on forever. Balinses Gamelan is very much loud, explosive and very bright, but does have its moments of 'calm', and is less fliud since it tends to stop and start at points.
Hope this is of help.
Hi. Yes this is all very interesting. Gamelans - are they relatively easy to play? I know they're used a lot in schools, or at least some schools.
Violinia
Violinia
The beauty of gamelan is that anyone can play, whether you have played gamelan for 10 years or you are a beginner.
The instruments have varying roles and difficulties.
Beginners will often play the instruments the play the 'skeletal' melody, the melody at the heart of the piece. These instruments make the foundation for the texture above. EVERYONE MUST learns this. The names of some of these instruments are: Slenthem, Saron (Demung) etc...
Then there are 'time marking' instruments, which mark certain points in the piece, e.g. the beginning, first 1/4, halfway point, 3/4, and the end of a cycle - gamelan music is cyclical. These can also be picked up by almost anyone. The names of some of these instruments are: Gong (-the largest gong), kempul etc... The drums (played by one person) need more training than the other 'time keeping/marking' instruments.
Finally, there are the elaborating instruments, which need a bit more time to pick up and even need individual lessons. These instruments elaborate on the 'skeletal melody', and this is where improvisation comes into the equation, but only once you have a working knowledge of the various patterns and the 'skeletal melody'. Once you get into the feel of a piece and you have established a point of meeting, i.e. where ALL the instruments play THE SAME NOTE, then you can come up with a way or path of arriving onto that note. From a Westener's point of view you can't do just anything. You have to stick to the style of the piece you are playing, just as in jazz you would have the harmonic framework in mind (-I hope that's right). The names of some of these instruments are: Bonang, Rebab, Gender (-pronounced with a hard 'g') etc...
The most inportant parts of the ensemble are the 'skeletal melody' instruments and the 'time keeping/marking' instruments as the is the basis for the 'elaborating' instruments.
Hope this helps.
The instruments have varying roles and difficulties.
Beginners will often play the instruments the play the 'skeletal' melody, the melody at the heart of the piece. These instruments make the foundation for the texture above. EVERYONE MUST learns this. The names of some of these instruments are: Slenthem, Saron (Demung) etc...
Then there are 'time marking' instruments, which mark certain points in the piece, e.g. the beginning, first 1/4, halfway point, 3/4, and the end of a cycle - gamelan music is cyclical. These can also be picked up by almost anyone. The names of some of these instruments are: Gong (-the largest gong), kempul etc... The drums (played by one person) need more training than the other 'time keeping/marking' instruments.
Finally, there are the elaborating instruments, which need a bit more time to pick up and even need individual lessons. These instruments elaborate on the 'skeletal melody', and this is where improvisation comes into the equation, but only once you have a working knowledge of the various patterns and the 'skeletal melody'. Once you get into the feel of a piece and you have established a point of meeting, i.e. where ALL the instruments play THE SAME NOTE, then you can come up with a way or path of arriving onto that note. From a Westener's point of view you can't do just anything. You have to stick to the style of the piece you are playing, just as in jazz you would have the harmonic framework in mind (-I hope that's right). The names of some of these instruments are: Bonang, Rebab, Gender (-pronounced with a hard 'g') etc...
The most inportant parts of the ensemble are the 'skeletal melody' instruments and the 'time keeping/marking' instruments as the is the basis for the 'elaborating' instruments.
Hope this helps.
| QUOTE (Farley_Teacher @ Sep 5 2004, 05:29 PM) |
| Please don't take this off-line, or if you do give us a summary - I am fascinated! |
Me too! I don't really feel qualified to make a comment because I don't know much about gamelans or improvisation! I'm learning from you lot!
That's great to hear. Have you done any improviation before LittleAnna? It is great to hear from others!
Well I've been playing the sax for about a year and love to try and improvise, but I don't have a teacher so it's quite tricky. Primarily I'm a classical player. I did a bit of research on modes and pentatonics and what-not so hopefully I will be more clued up soon. I think the theory about recollection is very true - I composed a short song once for voice and piano, and when I listened to it I could hear about five famous songs (well ideas from them at least)!!! Hopefully I've progressed a bit from there and my ideas are more original now, but I find it amazing how we subconciously incorporate other's influences into our own music. My friends and I really want to start a jazz/blues band so I'm definitely going to work on my improvisation before that.
I improvise in a mixture of evertyhing.
I was first introduced to improvisation when my stage band was practising a jazz piece.
i was very quiet then with my flute
but improvistion has opened me to realising other various aspects of music.
i have to admit that i used to 'suck' at improvisation but now i do stuff like flutter tounging !
Improvisation lets you explore your imagination
i was very quiet then with my flute
but improvistion has opened me to realising other various aspects of music.i have to admit that i used to 'suck' at improvisation but now i do stuff like flutter tounging !
Improvisation lets you explore your imagination
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