Full Version: How Do You Pronounce " Purcell" ?
It seems funny that there should be this debate when the evidence is so clear. But even then if one accepts that Purcell himself stressed the first syllable, you can still have different pronunciations: PURsell or PURs'l. The former would seem to be a good halfway house, as the latter sounds like an advert for Proctor & Gamble.
Language changes...
I say "PurCELL" but my American boyfriend says "PURcell" and I always think he's talking about Persil, the washing powder.
[quote
I wonder when the Purcell School staff made the change. When I knew it first it was definitely the PURcell School.
[/quote]
They may not have officially changed it. It could just be down to whoever answered the 'phone. My sister used to work for the ill-fated Equitable Life insurance company. Equitable is pronounced with the stress on the first syllable, but all the switchboard operators who worked there put the emphasis on the second syllable.
I wonder when the Purcell School staff made the change. When I knew it first it was definitely the PURcell School.
[/quote]
They may not have officially changed it. It could just be down to whoever answered the 'phone. My sister used to work for the ill-fated Equitable Life insurance company. Equitable is pronounced with the stress on the first syllable, but all the switchboard operators who worked there put the emphasis on the second syllable.
I tend to put more emphasis on the CELL, besides it just sounds weird if you emphasize the PUR, only a fool would do that lol.
QUOTE(The Tradge @ Oct 17 2007, 11:40 PM) 
I tend to put more emphasis on the CELL, besides it just sounds weird if you emphasize the PUR, only a fool would do that lol.
What a foolish thing to say
I can't believe that there's 4 pages here. discussing the guy's NAME. LOL
For the record, I pronounce it Purcell. No inflections.
For the record, I pronounce it Purcell. No inflections.
QUOTE(briantrumpet @ Oct 14 2007, 10:35 PM)
the latter sounds like an advert for Proctor & Gamble.
Not Procter and Gamble !
P****L is made by Lever Bros, actually its Lever Faberge now I think (I'm in the industry!)
QUOTE(Huge @ Oct 17 2007, 11:34 PM)
I can't believe that there's 4 pages here. discussing the guy's NAME. LOL
For the record, I pronounce it Purcell. No inflections.
You can't pronounce it without inflection - you have to give stress to one of the syllables, it's the only way to speak in English. English intonation is binary so it has to be 01 or 10. 00 can't exist, because unstressed syllables are a product of stressed ones and can therefore only exist if there are stressed syllables around them, so to say it with no inflection you would have to attempt to reduce the vowels to simple schwa value and it would end up sounding something like a very quiet version of 'psl' - almost like one syllable (which, by definition would then become stressed!).
Nor can you say it with equal inflection on both syllables without leaving a pause, or simply shouting the syllable that was meant to be unstressed.
I'd be interested to hear you say it (that's the linguist geek in me) - don't suppose you fancy recording it and sending it to me? If you can actually manage to articulate a double syllable English word with no inflection, I'd possibly be the happiest man in the whole world (which probably means I need to get out more).
Allan
QUOTE(rosfrog @ Oct 18 2007, 10:36 PM)
I'd possibly be the happiest man in the whole world (which probably means I need to get out more).
(sorry
)
I expect some members know this already, but I've just discovered that his name was also spelt "Pursel" at the time. I think that spelling lends itself to being pronounced with the emphasis on the first syllable, 'PURcell.... 
QUOTE(Frederic Chopin @ Oct 8 2007, 01:29 AM)
I would go for PUR-cell. I recall reading an article about it where someone found his name in a musical composition (?by him) and the only way one could sing it effectively was if it was sang PUR-cell.
QUOTE(briantrumpet @ Oct 10 2007, 06:54 PM)
It is quite certain that it was pronounced PURcell in the composer's time. The proof? Dryden's Ode on the Death of Mr. Henry Purcell. Read it out loud, and the stress must come on the first syllable. Dryden knew Purcell, so I think he's a pretty reliable source.
An Ode, On the Death of Mr. Henry Purcell
( Late Servant to his Majesty, Organist of the Chapel Royal
II
So ceas'd the rival Crew when Purcell came,
They Sung no more, or only Sung his Fame.
Struck dumb they all admir'd the God-like Man,
The God-like Man,
Alas, too soon retir'd,
As He too late began.
We beg not ######, our Orpheus to restore,
Had He been there,
Their Sovereign's fear
Had sent Him back before.
The pow'r of Harmony too well they know,
He long e'er this had Tun'd their jarring Sphere,
And left no ###### below.
III
The Heav'nly Choir, who heard his Notes from high,
Let down the Scale of Music from the Sky:
They handed him along,
And all the way He taught, and all the way they Sung.
Ye Brethren of the Lyre, and tuneful Voice,
Lament his Lot: but at your own rejoice.
Now live secure and linger out your days,
The Gods are pleas'd alone with Purcell's Lays,
Nor know to mend their Choice.
John Dryden
Ah - that is indeed what I was thinking about - thanks!
QUOTE(briantrumpet @ Oct 10 2007, 05:54 PM)
It is quite certain that it was pronounced PURcell in the composer's time. The proof? Dryden's Ode on the Death of Mr. Henry Purcell. Read it out loud, and the stress must come on the first syllable. Dryden knew Purcell, so I think he's a pretty reliable source.
An Ode, On the Death of Mr. Henry Purcell
( Late Servant to his Majesty, Organist of the Chapel Royal
I
>>>
II
So ceas'd the rival Crew when Purcell came,
They Sung no more, or only Sung his Fame.
>>>
III
>>>
The Gods are pleas'd alone with Purcell's Lays,
Nor know to mend their Choice.
John Dryden
QUOTE(skylark @ Oct 23 2007, 09:47 PM)
I expect some members know this already, but I've just discovered that his name was also spelt "Pursel" at the time. I think that spelling lends itself to being pronounced with the emphasis on the first syllable, 'PURcell....
All the previous discussion on the pronunciation of Purcell was about where to place the emphasis. I'm convinced because of Dryden's poem that it should be PURcell, but what about the pronunciation of the second syllable.... I've just come across this this article (paragraph copied below) which suggests it should be pronounced Purzell not Pursell. And I think I've seen somewhere that it should be pronounced Purs'll or Purz'll.
Unless I have missed something, no-one so far has mentioned the
contribution of to some correspondence in the *Musical Times* (I cannot
immediately lay my hands on the reference, but I think in the 1960s) which
points out that as far as we know, its derrivation suggests that it was
pronounced similarly to the Scottish style of 'Purzell'. A slight 'zzing'
will, in fact, elminate any confusion with the soap powder 'Persil'. My
personal preference is for it to be aliterated to 'rehearsal'!
Michael Burden
Any more thoughts anyone?
I've never heard it said pur-zell...sounds like some sort of cat... 
QUOTE(skylark @ Dec 23 2007, 08:30 AM)
II
So ceas'd the rival Crew when Purcell came,
They Sung no more, or only Sung his Fame.
Any more thoughts anyone?
yes - interesting to note that Dryden used the usually less used 'sung' as a simple past tense; it is more commonly used, I think, as the past participle?
Perhaps the Great Vowel Shift lasted longer than the linguists first thought!!! To me he will always be Purcell with a slight stress on the first syllable and with a slight Welsh accent.
The tutor at the Royal Academy on the BBC 4 programme has just pronounced it 'PURsull (ie with the stress on the first syllable and managing not to make it sound like a soap powder) - that's good enough for me
Per-Sell
not Per-(window)-sill
not Per-(window)-sill
I have never given a thought to how you pronounce Purcell but I have wondered about Czerny, I know we have a Forum member with this name so perhaps he/she could assist?
QUOTE(altoclef3 @ Jul 18 2009, 11:15 PM)
I have wondered about Czerny
My thread might help...
http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=29144&hl=
QUOTE(DaisyChain @ Jul 18 2009, 11:26 PM)
QUOTE(altoclef3 @ Jul 18 2009, 11:15 PM)
I have wondered about Czerny
My thread might help...
http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=29144&hl=
Interesting, thanks
QUOTE(skylark @ Jul 18 2009, 10:07 PM)
The tutor at the Royal Academy on the BBC 4 programme has just pronounced it 'PURsull (ie with the stress on the first syllable and managing not to make it sound like a soap powder) - that's good enough for me
Since January and Purcell cropping up as one of the anniversary composers, there's been a noticeable effort on Radio 3 to get all the presenters using this pronunciation - which has been amusing when they clearly sound uncomfortable (or at least unnatural) using it, while interviewing guests who are free to 'Pur-CELL' at will.
Per-Sell.
Simples.
Simples.
So how to you pronounce all the other washing powders, then 
N.B. I'm not taking sides in this one, because it would only prolong the controversy (or is that controversy?)
N.B. I'm not taking sides in this one, because it would only prolong the controversy (or is that controversy?)
QUOTE(petrat @ Oct 3 2007, 10:56 AM)
I have always heard it said as PURcell with the accent on the first syllable but then ell rather than ill like the washing powder.
In my opinion this is the correct pronunciation, but I haven't always heard it pronounced this way. It is an English name and in English the accent usually falls on the first syllable not the last.
I have heard and grown irritated by the fashionable (and snobbish) affectation in the pronunciation 'Pur-CELL' !
OT, but how do you pronounce Halley (as in comet) and Asperger (as in syndrome)?
QUOTE(Aeolienne @ Jul 19 2009, 04:50 PM)
OT, but how do you pronounce Halley (as in comet) and Asperger (as in syndrome)?
Er, as they're spelt!
Ha-lee, and asp-er-jers (as in jersey).
QUOTE(Aeolienne @ Jul 19 2009, 03:50 PM)
OT, but how do you pronounce Halley (as in comet) and Asperger (as in syndrome)?
Err... for me I either say 'HAY-lees' or 'HEL-lees', depending on which comes to mind first. And I usually say 'as-PER-gers'. But then I'm from down south so I have an accent
Haha and madbassoonist, by saying 'as-per-jers', you really aren't pronouncing it as it is spelt. It has a 'g'
QUOTE(Tar-pâlantἰr @ Jul 20 2009, 06:59 AM)
QUOTE(Aeolienne @ Jul 19 2009, 03:50 PM)
OT, but how do you pronounce Halley (as in comet) and Asperger (as in syndrome)?
Err... for me I either say 'HAY-lees' or 'HEL-lees', depending on which comes to mind first. And I usually say 'as-PER-gers'. But then I'm from down south so I have an accent
Haha and madbassoonist, by saying 'as-per-jers', you really aren't pronouncing it as it is spelt. It has a 'g'
But "g" in English has a soft sound (as in gelatine) and a hard sound (as in ground), so Madbassoonist is correct!
QUOTE(stetenorve @ Jul 20 2009, 07:19 AM)
QUOTE(Tar-pâlantἰr @ Jul 20 2009, 06:59 AM)
QUOTE(Aeolienne @ Jul 19 2009, 03:50 PM)
OT, but how do you pronounce Halley (as in comet) and Asperger (as in syndrome)?
Err... for me I either say 'HAY-lees' or 'HEL-lees', depending on which comes to mind first. And I usually say 'as-PER-gers'. But then I'm from down south so I have an accent
Haha and madbassoonist, by saying 'as-per-jers', you really aren't pronouncing it as it is spelt. It has a 'g'
But "g" in English has a soft sound (as in gelatine) and a hard sound (as in ground), so Madbassoonist is correct!
But Hans Asperger was Austrian, not English. Under German pronounciation rules "g" is always hard.
QUOTE(madbassoonist @ Jul 19 2009, 07:03 PM)
QUOTE(Aeolienne @ Jul 19 2009, 04:50 PM)
OT, but how do you pronounce Halley (as in comet) and Asperger (as in syndrome)?
Er, as they're spelt!
Ha-lee, and asp-er-jers (as in jersey).
Er, Halley is spelt Halley, like, er, Hall-ey. The unimpeachable wikipedia states that this pronunciation (Hawley) is the one that Halley himself probably used, though the evidence is not cited. This pronunciation woudn't be surprising though, as Hawley is quite a common name, and Halley is likely to be a variant spelling with the same pronunciation.
What does this have to do with washing powders?
QUOTE(PianissiMole @ Jul 20 2009, 10:02 AM)
What does this have to do with washing powders?
I'm just being Bold.
Just go with the tide if you get my dreft.
This is turning into Ariel shambles!
Didn't Persil write the Fairy Queen? That was a bit of a Gamble.
Lux as though we've gone OT again
My teacher at school was called Mrs PurCELL. So I tend to say PurCELL, sorry. but I guess the owner of the name must know?
QUOTE(muse @ Nov 10 2009, 03:38 PM)
I guess the owner of the name must know?
Now that's a whole new ballgame!
I used to know a family called Onions, as in the vegetable, pronounced UN-ee-uns. Except they pronounced it On-EYE-ons
Was that just because they didn't want any onion jokes about their name?
QUOTE(skylark @ Nov 10 2009, 03:55 PM)
QUOTE(muse @ Nov 10 2009, 03:38 PM)
I guess the owner of the name must know?
Now that's a whole new ballgame!
I used to know a family called Onions, as in the vegetable, pronounced UN-ee-uns. Except they pronounced it On-EYE-ons
That so reminds me of School of Rock...
"Did I pronounce that right, Mr shneebly?" "Actually its Mr Shnayblay"
LOL
QUOTE(muse @ Nov 10 2009, 04:19 PM)
"Did I pronounce that right, Mr shneebly?" "Actually its Mr Shnayblay"
LOL
Reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons where the girl with the surname "Stinky" turns up at the school... "It's Stanky!"
Hee hee
My Principal in sixth form college, a Mr Trebilcock, insisted his name was pronounced 'Tre-BIL-coh....' (silent 'ck') .......
denmark
My Principal in sixth form college, a Mr Trebilcock, insisted his name was pronounced 'Tre-BIL-coh....' (silent 'ck') .......
denmark
I've just heard the BBC pronounce it PUR-cell
... and it was given a mention on one of the bbc programmes this morning - someone had written in and given a reason why it was PURcell.
Not sure whether I found it convincing or not, in fact.
Not sure whether I found it convincing or not, in fact.
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Nov 16 2009, 07:08 PM)
... and it was given a mention on one of the bbc programmes this morning - someone had written in and given a reason why it was PURcell.
That's interesting - what reason did they give?
I was convinced by Dryden's poem which was posted on this thread.
QUOTE(skylark @ Nov 16 2009, 07:10 PM)
QUOTE(maggiemay @ Nov 16 2009, 07:08 PM)
... and it was given a mention on one of the bbc programmes this morning - someone had written in and given a reason why it was PURcell.
That's interesting - what reason did they give?
I was convinced by Dryden's poem which was posted on this thread.
It was me. And yes, it was Dryden's poem I quoted again.
And if you want any more proof that Purcell had the stress on the first syllable of his name, when Blow set Dryden's ode to music, he too put the first syllable on the beat, and the second on the up-beat quaver. Both Dryden and Blow knew Purcell well - Blow relinquished the post of organist at Westminster Abbey to his pupil Purcell, and then took the post again on the death of Purcell. There's a useful youtube video here, where you can also see the music, although the singing's not entirely to my taste.
The Music Department at Virginia Tech university pronounce it PUR'cell...
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/ap...nryPurcell.html
(incidentally the Virginia Tech web site is extremely good for the pronunciation of theory/performance terms as well as composers)
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/ap...nryPurcell.html
(incidentally the Virginia Tech web site is extremely good for the pronunciation of theory/performance terms as well as composers)
QUOTE(Dulciana @ Oct 3 2007, 10:10 AM)
It's like when LIDL (as in little) becomes LIDL (as in bridal).
I've always said LIDL as 'leedle'
That's how my family in France says it!As for Purcell, I say it PUR-cell. I always say things wrong anyway (eg. 'toona' instead of 'tchuna' for tuna...) so I'm used to having my pronounciation mocked
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