Hi all,

Sometimes when a pupil has finished playing a piece particularly badly it's a struggle to think of something positive to say...

I wonder how the more experienced teachers out there deal with this situation? What are your most tactful responses???!

Thanks!

"Well done! You made it to the end!"



In all seriousness, depending on the student, sometimes you just have to be honest and say "shall we try that again?" or something. Depends on the student.

"Better than last week" also works IF it's honest. When something goes horribly wrong in my piano lesson me and my teacher both giggle...

I definitely think that whatever you say have to actually be honest - if a teacher says "that was wonderful" when it clearly wasn't, then either the student will get an inflated opinion, or will not trust the teacher. But it's quite difficult because you don't want to crash someone's confidence.

My teacher has seriously said "Well done, you got to the end" to me *grin* sometimes it's all you can say...

Well, ... "there were some good bits in there. Did you find any particular bit difficult?...... Let's see if we can sort it out a bit."

Something I'd like an answer to too!
If it's particularly bad, with nothing having been improved upon since the last lesson I don't even let them get to the end. If they're clearly 'stuck' with something, I'll help as best I can, but I do quite often stop them and suggest that it would be more constructive for us to do something else until they've found the time to get more practice done on this. The teacher can't really be of much use until enough practice has been done to ascertain what the difficulties are. Every little helps, though, and I do hope I usually give credit where it's due - a higher grade piece can take weeks to get off the ground, and I do try to spot the slightest little improvements in the early stages.

How about a little "appraisal technique": First ask the pupil what they thought went well and then what could have gone better (n.b. not the same as what went badly - you have to be positive so you have to find something to be positive about). Then it's your turn with the same questions. Don't do it to death - one answer for each is enough. If that doesn't work try "root cause analysis" i.e "we both know what was wrong. Any idea why?". Or just don't say anything and start from scratch one hand at a time, or however you do it.

I started a new Bach Sinfonieta last week. In my lesson today most other things were fine and in 2 cases the best I have ever played them for the teacher (and in one case not only for the teacher). The Bach Sinfonieta was terrible, though I managed to get the tempo right and the music the right way up, so we just started from scratch and played through a couple of lines one hand at a time and talked about what I was going to do with it this week. Next week, no excuses though!

Hmm, I'm not experienced by any means...but I find it depends on the student. If I know their personality well enough and we're comfortable with eachother, sometimes we both exchange a grin or a look of "I know what you're going to say...". If it's simply a matter of practicing, then we talk about that or how to practice by just focusing on the tricky parts. If I know or don't know the student well enough, I definitely opt for a positive point as often as I can. I agree with Dulciana, sometimes just stopping the performance and getting right to work is a good choice.

I'm not a teacher, but I am a student, and I know that I get pretty annoyed with myself when I play things wrong/badly, so I can suggest a comment of encouragement with a hint of praise (but obviously not anything false!).

I think I would find a bit that was good, or that had improved since last time it was played and say something like "This bit was quite good/much better than before, well done! There's still a few bits we need to work on though...." etc.

And if you're really really struggling to find anything remotely positive about it, then perhaps just say well done for trying!! Then go through parts and throw in loads of praise when improvements are being made.

Hope that was of any use...I can imagine it to be a tricky situation!!!

It's ok with the ones who know it was bad... it's the ones who don't you've got a problem with....
Sometimes the first or last note are really good....

Agree with all the points about encouragement etc...

I'm always careful to establish if any practise has been done before I comment (or usually I can just tell right away).

I don't want them to go away thinking that they got praised for no practise (then they won't do nay the following week), or that I'm a fool and didn't notice

Depends on the pupil,

sometimes a simple look will suffice!
Other times, I might utter something along the lines of,

• Well, how do you think that went?
• Have you practiced at all this week?
• That wasnt the best you've played it
• Would you like me to play it to you again?
• Shall we try it a bit slower?

etc...

Would you like to try that again, or would you like to leave it until next time and you 've had more time to practise it ?

True!


I had a piano teacher many moons ago whose ear for practice was on totally wrong. The weeks I'd practised my socks off she would have a go at me for not doing enough, and the weeks I didn't practise I invariably got praised for doing so well...

aww, that must've been so frustrating!

From the point of view of an adult learner, especially one who is used to critical appraisal of my own work, I love positive encouragement but not when I know it is rubbish. Unless Teacher can tell me what he is being positive about then praise for bad playing makes me wonder how discriminating he is!

Like Malone and Robodoc, I would leave a slight pause, and then say, in a neutral rather than judgemental fashion, 'How do you think that went?' That would often be my starting point anyway, even if it was totally brilliant. What I try not to do is to weigh in with an automatic 'Well done!' without qualifying what exactly it was that I enjoyed - the phrasing, the contrasts, whatever. (Descriptive praise !)

Then I would ask, (again, regardless of which level has been reached) 'Which areas do you think we should look at now?' . Or - 'What would you like to do with this piece?' . ('Leave it!' can sometimes be a very acceptable answer)

I'm fortunate that my pupils all know when they haven't played well and they are all intelligent enough to know it's usually because they haven't done enough practice! As such, they tend to look sheepishly at me when they've finished and a simple look of mock-despair is enough to make them giggle, relax the mood and be honest with them that it wasn't very good! I'm not a believer in the whole 'everything must be positive, we mustn't criticise ever.' I find that saying something that was wrong and then asking the pupil how they think they could correct it works well; it makes them think about what's been said in previous lessons and encourages them to do the same at home when they practice when I'm not there to point things out. It's also much easier to praise them when they answer a question correctly and I think they focus more on the fact they know how to put it right than that they got it wrong in the first place.

I'm still struggling with a student who seems very aware of everything he should be doing at home, but regularly fails to deliver in the lesson. He's a lovely boy and does seems very responsive, starts the lessons well with theory work, warm-ups, sight reading (which used to be very weak, but is now improving) and all the other things we do together, but then when we get on to what he's practised at home we're back to the usual scenario of him struggling through a piece and sounding more and more unsure. I've told him (over and over) how to practise and have made sure that he understands the process, but things are not improving. I'm reluctantly coming to the conclusion that he is just lazy and can't be bothered to work in the way that I suggest when he's on his own. I'm using "jazzy" pieces at the moment, as I thought they would motivate him more, but things are no better. It's really frustrating and I hate the idea of having to nag him, as I want every one of my students to enjoy playing.

Yes!!

Is he working (or not working!!) on pieces he enjoys? It might be an idea to try other types of music (classical, traditional, even themes from films etc) to see if these get a better response practice-wise.

Or perhaps he is like one of my students, who works hardest when the pressure is on - eg for a forthcoming exam or competition.

Sometimes when a pupil has appeared for a couple of weeks running and a piece has remained at the same (poor) standard, and I have a suspicion that little practice is going on, I ask about practice - how often, how long, etc etc.

Then we discuss what should be happening in practice sessions and actually do a "practice session" during the lesson to prove that progress can be made with an awkward bit in a short space of time. When I suggest they practice a particular section 6 times they nearly fall off the piano stool, but once they've recovered they usually agree that it's effective.

Yes I think I know what you are going through jenny. I have one student who came to me at about G3 level but no sightreading skills, having played nothing but exam pieces all through her learning, thoroughly depressed and sometimes in tears after piano lessons with her previous teachers. Over 6-9 months I tried all sorts of things - jazz, the Agay arrangements of classics, Upgrade stuff with tunes I thought she would know... I have not been able to change her approach, which is to do EXACTLY the work set, laboriously and literally, even to the extent of learning not to the end of a musical phrase but to the end of a printed line.... Never has she said she liked a piece, although once she did say when she disliked one, which I pathetically took as an encouraging sign of developing musical taste.

I was finding it so difficult to find anything positive to say at the end of her playing - to return to the thread - and I have had to start to respond to her on her terms - ie, well done you have done exactly what we said, now let's add x,y,z. I work pretty intuitively with music, she doesn't, I have to accept that, however foreign it is to me, and reward her for the ways she does things.

In general, if it's really bad, I just say "Thankyou!"

That's a good idea In general I ask things like how difficult they found the music, or how long it took them to learn a section. Being a new teacher it helps me gauge if the work I set them is enough, or too much. Sometimes it's hard to tell! At the start I think I wasn't giving them enough to do at home, and was pleasantly surprised to find most of the kids were very capable of tackling a bit more!

The most difficult times I've had so far have been students "inherited" with no sight reading skills, so I know it can be tricky. They want to play pieces at the standard they think they should be at, but in reality I'd prefer to take them back onto easier stuff to get them sight reading more fluently. It's hard to get them to see it from that point of view though!

Heh heh, I found that one lady teacher was so diplomatic that my son (when much younger) didn't really understand that she was telling him he hadn't played well! (That is, I think boys often need to hear things more clearly, while girls can often take the merest hint).

His current violin teacher on the other hand is very easy to understand: if he likes it, he will yell "Wonderful", and clap him on the back so hard my son practically goes flying out the window. If he doesn't like it, he has been known to yell "If you ever play that badly again, I'll kick you up the backside!" or "NEVER come to me without practicing and then just play badly - I'll kick you out and never teach you again. Iif you haven't practiced, tell me, instead of insulting me by playing rubbish."

His guitar teacher just starts laughing and shaking his head if things aren't going well.

Somehow, no matter how ...err...volatile the violin teacher gets, he doesn't seem to scare my son or put him off. I think it's because he is just as open about his praise as he is about his complaints, and also because he's obviously focused on the violin, not on personal attacks or insinuations about moral character etc!

Both these teachers take the time to analyze what went wrong, and to give really specific advice and demonstrations on fixing the problem(s). For a student, that's a much better feeling than veiled criticism, especially if the teacher seems to be hinting that the student is too hopeless to be worth correcting. And for a teacher, I imagine that the student's reaction to actual advice and correction tells you everything you need to know about the student's atttitude to improving their technique?

[quote name='Misterioso' date='Oct 6 2007, 05:21 PM' post='606118']
[quote name='jenny' post='606011' date='Oct 6 2007, 02:10 PM']

Is he working (or not working!!) on pieces he enjoys? It might be an idea to try other types of music (classical, traditional, even themes from films etc) to see if these get a better response practice-wise.

Or perhaps he is like one of my students, who works hardest when the pressure is on - eg for a forthcoming exam or competition.
[/quote]

I've tried all sorts of pieces and all types of music and the result is still the same. He doesn't offer any opinions about what he likes or doesn't like, although he seems to have enjoyed playing things like Piano Time Classics, with tunes that he recognises.
As for exams, I put him in for Grade 2 in the summer and although he managed the pieces quite well (I had to work really hard to get him to play them as written) he had serious problems with scales, in that he just didn't/wouldn't learn them. I've never had a student before who still couldn't play their scales the week before the exam! The result was that he got reasonable marks for his pieces and very poor marks on the rest of the exam and only just managed to pass. So no, he doesn't work hard when the pressure is on.
I always end his lessons feeling so frustrated!

Wow, so many replies - thank you!!

I like lots of your ideas so will add them to my list of answers and try them out.

The violin teacher mentioned earlier - I don't think I would dare to speak like that to a pupil of mine! Maybe I need a few more years eh!!

Things that haven't worked for me include the idea of asking the student what they thought of their performance themselves. Due to their age (I presume) this is usually answered with a shrug of the shoulders.
What I might try though is to break the piece into smaller portions and ask more 'guided' questions so it's not such a big question.

I also have a pupil who doesn't seem to get that enthusiastic about the different styles (and I've tried many many different styles believe me!) of music I teach her. The most enthusiastic is 'it's alright' followed by a slight smile!!!

Sounds like at least he's very honest, which I'm sure most students appreciate!

Though there are some students who still wouldn't take kindly to that

It is a hard call, and definitely a case of chemistry too. This is the same Viohazard who took well over a year to relax after being thoroughly yelled at by his first violin teacher, back when he was knee-high. And the luthier's son, who is roughly the same age and is the only other boy studying with the current teacher, is apparently terrifed of him (he was another kid who escaped from the first teacher's Reign of Terror). I do think the fact that the scolding includes specific advice and lots of encouragement, instead of just a generalized rant, makes a difference.

Talking of specific advice, at yesterday's lesson he came up with "Viohazard, there's too much nutmeg and not enough cream in your Bach."

Definitely... "You're rubbish!" is totally unhelpful, but "ARGH! No, don't do this, you need to do that, practise more and then you might be able to play it without me going mad" is more help (if still a little scary

I've definitely taken more or less that line with one or two pupils, though not phrased quite that way. I expected them to tell me straight away if they hadn't practised, so that we didn't waste lesson time but could spend it productively on e.g. sight-reading or some technical exercises. I had an adult pupil who was a school teacher, and when there were reports to write or parents' evenings she usually managed to keep her lesson time free for some music therapy!

I will quite often do some "play one hand each" with pupils who are struggling for whatever reason. Pupils usually find this quite fun but it is very useful for practising hands separately and for getting correct rhythms etc. stuck in their brains. Also, the improvement which usually results is enough to spur them on to practise better the next week. Maybe I am too kind...

Yes, and when they say that practising it so many times will take ages I time it. I have a little clock with a second hand near the piano. They are always very suprised at the short amount of time it takes - and then I say "So there's no excuse".

How I deal with lack of practice depends entirely on the age of the child, thier potential and the amount of family support they get. I try to guage what I say on a very individual basis, always keeping it positive.

I can't see any reason to think of that as "too kind" when it's both encouraging and effective. Pupils can practise one hand at a time on their own, but that doesn't give them the same experience of hearing the music complete so that they have a better chance of recognising when it's right once they put the two hands together. I don't support the idea that absolutely everything has to be "fun", but enjoyment always feeds positively into learning.

I SO agree. After all, a vast majority of our students are playing for enjoyment. In my introductory letter to new students' parents, I say that my main objective is to help their children to enjoy music making. I also believe that we very often expect too much of our young students and this year I'm making a conscious effort go over things more in order to make sure that they really do understand.

I agree - my teacher uses that with me a LOT, Carol (even though I am reasonably proficient in several other instruments I find piano SO hard) and I find it so useful, AND encouraging.