I personally prefer proof by induction myself...

Anyway, this is becoming rather counter-productive - if you want to debate about something, why not do it in the 'Debate Thread' instead, but certainly not here on a pinned up thread where we are meant to be suggesting ideas for ways to improve the exam rather than picking faults with it? There is no point in repeating the same point again... How about something more constructive, like suggesting a different point?

I did like the idea of the previously suggested area of a piano practice room to go in before a music exam... I just kind of felt a bit guilty playing Hanon as a warm-up in the exam room!



~Wobby~

Yes, I'd agree that's a good idea. The problem with it, is that I know some exam centres are private homes, and very few private homes have two pianos, let alone in two different rooms... it would be a shame if trying to improve the exam experience ended up meaning people having to travel 2 or 3 times as far for their exams.

Proof by induction is quite nice as well .
I don't think it is necessarily counter productive. I supported a suggestion made by someone else, later refined it slightly and i am now defending that suggestion. I am not repeating the same point i am replying to the points made by others against my view point.
In fact there have been several points which came up in light of this discussion e.g. Sarah's suggestion for a different series of tests for those unable to pitch accurately, and my own suggestion that her suggestion was flawed in that there is no way to verify it.

Hmm... maybe just increase the numbers of piano practice rooms over time, though, rather than as a specification? Hehe, I recall I was tempted when he asked if I wanted to test the piano to go up to Exercise No. 20, but I thought I'd better not push my luck!





Maybe it is not counter-productive in terms of debating on behalf of the quality of music exams as a whole, but it will be counter-productive in the sense that the CE will have to sift through all these pages, when I think that she is more looking for suggestions that she can answer. Maybe suggestions that do not involve changing the syllabus would be more realistic?

I wouldn't mind an ABRSM publication of the alternative list pieces, please! I recall trying to track down that Soler piece for Grade 8, and ended up buying 2 books to find that I only used one of them in the end (and I still couldn't find an edition here in the UK!)

~Wobby~

Is anyone able to learn all those scales in a total of two hours?

The problem is that some people are needing to spend two hours a day. While I agree that scales are vital I can't seen why the scale book may not be used for reference in the exam.

Also, scales (minor ones in particular), when learned by rote, teach nothing about note recognition that may be useful in sightreading.

As i've said science proves memory can be improved pitch, a factor independant of memory, can not be improved by any way of which i am aware.

I have to disagree - I have worked with many pupils and helped them improve their sense of pitch.

Allowing reference to the scale book in the exam would be like saying it's ok if you don't know your key signatures.

If they made this a rule then I wouldn't be able to have an examiners visit. It's nice for pupils to be able to take their exams in familiar surroundings. Perhaps they could just apply to it exam centres and not those that take place in private homes?

Some of the exam centres (normal - not special visits) ARE private homes.

Didn't realise that - all the centres round by me are schools or public buildings of some kind.

I believe our main local centre has changed, and I'm no longer certain where it is, but it definitely used to be in someone's house.

True - though Grade 5 theory would be a good test of that.

Perhaps scales should be memorised up to Grade 5 only?

I think that if we perceive flaws in the syllabus it is worthwhile to bring these to the attention of the CE and the level of discussion indicates that quite a few people do see problems with the current exam set up.

However, maybe rather than internally discussing each other's opinions, each person could neatly summarise the points that they feel should be looked over by the CE, and let her decide upon whose points she sees most fitting to implement, no?

~Wobby~

Anyone can do note recognition visually the aim of scales is to teach the physical actions involved in moving between different notes, thats how i see it anyway.
I think anyone who spent two hours a day on scales is probably being slightly excessive in that they will only take in a fraction of what they play. However a substantial number of scales could easily be learned and memorised over a few weeks with 10-15 minutes practice a day.

a substantial number of scales could easily be learned and memorised over a few weeks with 10-15 minutes practice a day.

You are taking into account different peoples' learning styles when you make that claim ?? I think people vary more than that.

I was refering to factors over which the pupil has direct control e.g. evidence shows playing certain mind games improves memory function thereby a pupil can improve memory without input from the teacher. Although in certain cases it may be possible to improve pitching some people will still find it next to impossible and the puil has little if any control over the variables.

I have found in most cases it's possible to improve pitching.

Surely that would make Gr 6 significantly easier than Gr 5.
Besides in a theory exam you can spend half the time going through circles of fourths or fifths until you get the answer it doesen't prove you know them or recognise them.

Then your recognition of intervals isn't hopeless, though it may not be conscious, and it doesn't mean you can necessarily sing them. As I said, I don't think that the sight-singing as in grades 1-5 is a terribly good test of the ability, but we use it all the time - consciously or not. To know where you want your improv to go, for example, and to instinctively play it, you've just recognised and reproduced an interval

At what point did i say i was an expert on exams?
Numerically virtually anything is possible. Granted it is highly doubtful nonetheless it is possible. The probability may be that anyone who got full marks on pieces would pass, and arguably pass very well, but there are no certainties.



I'm perfectly happy to leave any implementation up to the CE but I think a lot of the views on this are only fully expressed through contradicting other points.



I'm fairly certain of it. I'm not fully clued up on all the educationalist theories on kinaesthetic learners etc but using the time to full advantage i should have thought it perfectly likely, particularly with adult pupils when they should have the most experience of learning and what works best for them etc (although not being an adult i can't be sure on that).



The key word being most. Some people are born with a sense of pitch, others can learn it and others simply can't. Guess which group would be significantly disadvantaged under the current exam system.

You are taking into account different peoples' learning styles when you make that claim ??

I'm fairly certain of it. I'm not fully clued up on all the educationalist theories on kinaesthetic learners etc but using the time to full advantage i should have thought it perfectly likely, particularly with adult pupils when they should have the most experience of learning and what works best for them etc (although not being an adult i can't be sure on that).

Really ?? well I am an adult, I have some experience of teaching, and you 'll have to allow me to disagree.

Its more likely that they've used theoretical knowledge and put it in to practice. There is no necessity for recognising and reproducing intervals simply using what you know works from experience and scales.

I have found in most cases it's possible to improve pitching.

The key word being most.

point was - I was disagreeing with your key word "certain" as in "certain cases".

actually no, I've changed my mind, can't be doing arguing with someone so certain they're right regardless... it gets dull.

no actually not even going to go there

sssh

*exits the thread for the moment!*

Er - I'm aware of a way...

*cough*

One thing the CE will be certain of, on reading all this - exam components excite extremes of emotion .

As someone who has learned music for about three decades, but had lessons on her main instrument for only four years, who know all the keys in theory, but finds it impossible to learn scale fingerings on the recorder reliably off by heart may I just say this: the ABRSM accepts the validity of a Trinity grade 8 exam when it comes to applying for a dipABRSM (maybe not the Trinity diplomata, level for level, but that has nothing to do with scales) - that being so, there is tacit recognition that different musicians reach their level in different ways.

It's just a pity that the AB condemns its candidates to long and tedious practice of a skill when there are equally valid ways of acquiring technical facility, and yes, people like myself will decamp and get their grade 8s elsewhere, and having switched boards, may choose to stay with them. A pity - for grade 7, the AB examiner had to fail me on scales(rightly so...), still gave me enough marks for that coveted extinction, but the whole experience was very unpleasant. My guess is that those who find singing equally traumatic will feel similar...

Explain in mathematical terms the feeling someone gets from hearing a piece of music. How about doing the same to explain why a composer is inspired to write, say, a G rather than a C in a composition.

Granted, there is an element of maths in music, but "music is maths" is a very sweeping statement.

Post deleted

Anacrusis that's an excellent point about different routes.

Interesting comment too about recorder fingering.
I reckon I can extemporise or sight-read in any key you 'd like to name - I don't think it owes much to knowing scales though.

Hi,

Without wishing to stifle the debate too much, may I remind everyone that this thread is specifically for asking questions of the Chief Examiner and there haven't been many in the last few pages of messages - could we return to the point please? Thanks!

Yes EdGj, I think it is time to return to the point, but perhaps with questions enriched by the debate.

I haven’t got much time at this end of school year so I might have to come back on another post when I get a few minutes with a follow up, but here goes on SCALES. My questions are really from the point of view of piano exams.

Question: Am I right in assuming that the aim of the Board up to Grade 5 is to familiarise pupils with all keys?

Reasoning behind my question: The major/minor system so basic to western music needs to be fully understood by pianists. You can’t learn a language (musical or otherwise ) without vocabulary and I have always assumed this is the reason for the Board’s insistence on scales. In “These Music Exams” there is a section on marking in exams and for scales and technique is considered, even in the early grades but there is also the requirement “quick response” – that is recognising quickly which key is requested – knowing and understanding arpeggios /your scales / key signatures.

Question :If I am right in this assumption, would I be right in (judging from the syllabus content) assuming that from Grade 6 onwards there is a little more emphasis on technique?

Reasoning behind my question: According to “These Music Exams” the marking scheme is the same for all 8 Grades but if you look carefully at the content of this part of the exams there does seem to be a slight shift of emphasis.

Question : If my assumptions are correct, would the Board consider some revision of the scale syllabus ? (I think there was some talk of this but I don’t know if it ever got off the ground).

Would the Board consider, for example, spreading the load of learning all the tonalities over 6 grades instead of 5? There might be some conflict with the Grade 5 theory requirement but that’s perhaps another question.

Reason for asking this question : I in no way wish to see standards fall and exams made easier.
But sometimes we can arrive at the same ends by another means. The 21st century child is overworked, and over-stressed. He / she simply doesn’t have the time to practise that I had (many moons ago).

Last question on this : Could the Board consider revising the scale/ arpeggio / broken chord elements of the syllabus, spreading, as I said above, the learning process over a slightly longer period and then in the last 2 grades very clearly going more in the direction of consolidating and developing technique? Is this a good or a bad idea?

Have to go now but have more questions on aural and sight reading which I will post if I get through my teaching day without too much hassle.

Moving swiftly away from scales and aural requirements, is there a possibility of later closing dates, maybe even shifting the exam sessions away from the end of school terms? I had a pupil sit Grade VII in December; the closing date was several months in advance, and she seemed more than ready then, but the exam was at the end of a very busy term which I'm sure had a negative effect (school show and exams, so not as much time to practice; end-of-term fatigue had set in, so her immune system was weak so she had a rotten cold on exam day). Lesson learnt though - before closing dates I shall ask "what's lined up at school this term?".

I fell victim to the early closing dates when at school: I moved to a different area over one summer holiday, and also to a new teacher. I'd have been ready to take Grade VI in the winter session, but the closing date was on about the second week of term, and new teacher wasn't prepared to take the chance, so I couldn't take the exam until the spring

Oh, and if Clara could have a word with her colleagues in ABRSM Publishing to ask (i) if a tuning note could be included in the accompaniment CD, (ii) if individual tracks could be made available for download, and (a really cheeky one, this) (iii) if we could buy surplus stock cheaply once the syllabus has expired, that'd be grand

I would like to know why it is necessary to get written permission to use photocopies to give to the examiner for diploma exams when it is not considered necessary to get written permission for using photocopies for the same purpose for Grade 8 exams.

In Libretto magazine 2007:1 on page 3 it says
"Although not an exam requirement, examiners appreciate having copies of the Grade 8 music. Under the Music Publishers’ Association Code of Fair Practice it is possible to use photocopies for this purpose, as long as the copy is destroyed after the exam."

The Music Publishers' Association have already agreed that it is OK to photocopy for this purpose so why is it necessary to go to all the extra trouble of getting the written permission?

It may seem a trivial point but it is not necessarily straightforward or easy to get the written permission. When I asked one (small) publisher about photocopying the music for the examiner, they refused to allow me to photocopy it but offered to lend it to me instead. They also pointed out they had low stocks of that particular music which might cause a problem with them lending me the music at the time I would actually need it. To avoid a problem I would need to buy an additional (very expensive) copy of the music. I regretfully decided to play a different piece instead just because of this. I would, however, have liked to have supported a living composer by buying and playing his piece.

Oooh good ones (esp C!!) - hand in hand with the usefulness of having old exam syllabus lists available online, or at least at request! *flutters eyelashes*

That's another good one too, to phrase it as a question: is there a reason they're not available online or is it just that no one has got around to collating them? If it is the latter, maybe opening it up as a wiki, or even if we just create a thread on here, we could no doubt collectively make a good start at generating a list . Of course, since the syllabus is copyright to the AB we can't do that without their blessing: there may be another reason for not making the information so readily availabe, for example comparison of 'that piece has gone down/up a grade' or simply to prevent other boards from using it as a resource.

Another one on the topic of scales that arises frequently: what constitutes a 'musically shaped scale', is a crescendo/diminuendo what is desired or is even tone more important? Should evenness and accenting alone be sufficient for full marks or is there something else being looked for?

Yes, great idea. Could I ask if it would also be possible to put individual sheet music copies for download, payable for each copy we download?

...and does it differ from instrument to instrument? As the crescendo/diminuendo could be construed as bad technique for some. (Good question!)

(iv) would it be possible to record the main instrument and the accompaniment on separate channels? So if you listened 'in stereo' you'd get the instrument + piano, but if you tweaked the balance and listened with just the left speaker you'd get just piano and if you listened with the right speaker you get just main instrument? I know they put the 'just the accompaniment' tracks on the CDs (as separate to the piano + instrument recording) - I just think this way would mean you only get each piece once (which should cut down the price of the CD - some are quite expensive) but you'd get the option to have just accompaniment, just mainline or complete sound.

In the hearing of music millions of air particles vibrate at a certain frequency, governed by mathematically formulated laws.
Harmony in compositions is all about the interaction of these different frequencies with the effect on hearing dependant on the laws of physics, which at its core is applied maths.
I have given this considerable thought and I am quite certain that my initial statement was correct.

This thread has moved back on topic - let it rest.......

quite right ---

The idea of holding practical exams mid term is an excellent one. Pupils are often busy with revision for schol exams in the last two or three weeks of the school terms and often busy with concerts too. The Christmas term is often particularly bad.

Oh dear. I now have to ask that the Board do not put exams in the middle of school terms. The
ABRSM is an international organisation and school terms are not the same the world over. (I think I am right in saying, for example, that the Australian school year starts in January.) Exams in the middle of term would mean my pupils simply couldn’t do them. I wouldn’t have any premises available in mid term and like many teachers I have other teaching commitments when school programmes are in full swing. Also the continuity of instrumental teaching would be broken, up even more, straddling work over each side of the proceeding holiday. Then there’s the problem of half term holidays. These days many students are on continuous assessment so they wouldn’t be any better off with exams in mid term.

How about this book. It's been about for at least two previous exam syllabi - it was in publication when I did my grade 8 in 2004, but I didn't know about it until after I had taken the exam, which was very annoying. It doesn't seem to be advertised much.

Incidentally, that was one of the two books that I already had (although I got it for about £1 or so above the asking price there)! Neither had the Soler piece in, but nevermind, seeing as I've done my Grade 8 now anyway. In fact, all three of the pieces I did in the end were in that book.

~Wobby~