I mentioned this problem a while back but I'm in need of some fresh advice.

I'm learning the violin as a second instrument and have been for about 6 months. I can play grade 1 standard pieces (but my bowing can go a bit haywire, still need more practice, but it's coming).

The problem I am having is with my teacher, who is 2 years older than me, and studying music at university.

In the beginning he used to have his violin with him in the lesson, now he doesn't at all. The way he shows me how to do things on the violin is to physically get hold of the bow and actually do it with me. In the beginning I just thought that's how things were, understanding that it's not like the piano where you can pretty much press a key like a button, but the bowing is a pretty big side of it. But still 6 months down the line he is still doing it. I understand that my bow doesn't stay straight (a common problem, it happens to everyone) but he will get hold of my bow, and start bowing with me making the worst sound I've ever heard. He will do that for like 10 mins of the lesson and it's not teaching me anything. Also, it makes me uncomfortable when his hand is directly over mine. I understand that he's new to teaching, I started teaching piano almost 4 years ago, but I have always allowed my students to play, and if they really do not understand then I will show them by playing it to them. He doesn't even have his violin with him to actually show me.

I know I need to say something but a) I'm not confrontational and b) I dont know how to say it and c) I have been contacting other teachers in the area but they either dont have any vacancies or they do, but I'm not in London mondays to fridays.

Some lessons are ok, some aren't, but it is a growing problem.

I'd just act frustrated and ask him to start bringing his violin to show you. I'm not a violinist but I fail to see how holding your hand is going to help you bow straighter. Surely that's an eye-hand coordination thing and has to be practised and learned yourself.

If he tries it again, why not just hand him your violin and ask him to show you. If he touches your hand, turn sideways and say something like "No, no, I can do it!" He'll get the message.

In the meantime, look for another teacher.

Steve

Next time you go and he doesn't have his violin, do you think you could say to him, "Do you mind if you bring your violin because I find it easier if I can watch and copy the movement you are doing", and if he forgets, as stevenfso suggested, ask him to demonstrate on your violin and say afterwards if he tries to physically guide you that you would rather learn to do it yourself while he is watching because you will have to do it at home yourself. At least that way you are not being confrontational.

There's no point continuing to spend money on a teacher you don't feel is helping you. He isn't suddenly going to become your ideal teacher just because you make a suggestion or two. Besides, why should you pay him for the privilege of helping him improve his teaching? Try to find someone you have confidence in, but drop this one anyway. It doesn't matter whether he has "a perfectly valid reason for teaching in the way he does". The point is that it doesn't suit you.

I too have been learning the violin for about 6 months, so I understand what you say about bowing. I too would feel very uncomfortable with somebody actually bowing for me. My violin teacher is fantastic and with my bowing problems, she will either demonstrate herself or she will make adjustments to my arm or elbow so I know where my arm needs to be to correct my bowing.

It sounds as if you are not getting the most out of your lessons and that you definitely need a new teacher but I understand how difficult it is to find a teacher. It took me a long time to find my teacher. All I can suggest is that you tell your teacher that you don't feel you are benefitting from them bowing for you, but to demonstrate to you, what level your arm and elbow need to be.

I hope you everything works out for you.

Yes I agree with those who suggest you ask him to bring his violin to demonstrate.

Jen, you are not going to get the best from your lessons if you are uneasy. I would meanwhile start looking for other possible teachers. I remember this problem, and it seems to me it has been going on for too long !

I agree. What can you be learning if you are not looking forward to your lessons, not enjoying your lessons, and feeling uncomfortable with your teacher. If you really want to continue with him, speak now! The longer you wait the more difficult it will be - and there is never the right moment for this sort of thing, so don't wait for it. You may find that he is perfectly agreeable!

I re-iterate the above comments that if it makes you uncomfortable then you will not be conducive to learning. However in defence of the teacher (a little) - watching how it is done is not the same as feeling how it is done, and sometimes if your bow hand / arm can be guided and you concentrate on what that movement feels like in the arm / wrist then it can help you to bow better. I know this helps me.

I bet this is what he is doing, but he may be going overboard with it.

A gentle word should be enough I'm sure, and having felt what it's like in the muscles, then you should be allowed to have a go yourself while he watches.

Just had a thought - if you talk to your teacher he may say that all his other students are OK with it so it's your problem, not his. Or he may say he was fine with it when his teacher taught him that way.
Be ready to remind him that you are you, and not everybody else, and just because you are uncomfortable with something that other people are fine with, it doesn't mean you have to just live with it.

I think you just need to tell him that it's a problem. It seems unfair to be suggesting changing teachers when the teacher hasn't even been told about the problem.

Don't look for alternative teachers until you have spoken to him and seen his reaction. If he doesn't change his way of teaching, then you can start to look for a new teacher, but at least give the fellow a chance.

I had a piano teacher who used to sing along to everything but she did stop when I told her that I found it distracting rather than helpful.

I remember one lesson where my teacher bowed for me, but I seem to recall it was for a completely different issue to yours - I think I just couldn't coordinate the fingers and the bowing. However, this meant logically I didn't need to hold the bow at all, so she did it all and there was no hands touching business - even if there was I'd feel fine about it because she's friendly and not at all scary etc. I think I did find it useful although I don't remember that clearly as it was a while ago!

That may have been a completely irrelevant post, but just to say I've been taught with a similar method to yours.

Fairness doesn't come into it. JuicyJen doesn't owe this teacher anything: he is providing a service, for money. She is not happy with the service she is getting. She needs to ask herself who is going to provide the best value for her money - this teacher (assuming she can persuade him to change his methods), or someone else who already knows how to teach effectively? Seems a bit of a no-brainer to me. Even if this teacher does know what he's doing (which frankly I doubt), he shouldn't be adopting such eccentric methods without checking that his pupils are happy about it.

I don't play strings, so the technicality is outside my scope. However, to be fair to the teacher, surely he can't check first that pupils are "happy" with everything that occurs in a lesson. The assumption must be that the pupil is happy unless told otherwise? Should my teacher have asked me if he can sit close to me during a lesson? Should he ask before he leans over to turn a page for me? If it causes me concern, I'd say it was up to me to say so.

A

I feel for juicyjen because it's not that easy saying something isn't right, and the longer it goes on the harder it gets to
say you've hated it for N months.

Maybe what's needed is ideas about HOW to say you don't want him all over you bowing.
So here goes (some of these are meant to be funny)

idea 1) I'm really not getting the hang of this: I know you mean to help me but I just can't concentate
enough while you're doing it to get the benefit, although I've tried, because of the ugly noise
idea 2) can you demonstrate what I'm doing and then show me the difference between that and what
I'm meant to be doing
idea 3) can you give me something to do at home to correct whatever it is while you're not here, I think
I'd rather work on that as I think it'll be more beneficial in the long term
idea 4) I'm sorry but I think I'm allergic to your aftershave
idea 5) chew raw garlic before your lesson

Brilliant idea!!

Then he's got the problem - how do I tell this pupil................


A

Hi JuicyJen

Since you've said in your first post that you've tried to find another teacher but haven't yet been able to find an alternative, I agree with loops that it's ideas as to what to say that would be most helpful. So some other non-confrontational suggestions....

1) I don't feel as if I'm making progress - we've been trying it this way for several months and I'm not improving. I feel as if it would be more helpful if... (whatever you would find helpful)

2) I felt as if I learnt more from watching you play and I really miss you not bringing your violin in any more. Do you think you could start bringing it back in so that I can watch how you play...

3) It feels very awkward when you try to show me that way. It doesn't feel natural and surely it can't be right to do something which doesn't feel natural. Could you show me by (insert as appropriate) instead....

If I think of any more suggestions, I'll come back, but maybe others can think of something suitable to say as well

I agree with talk to him

Put this fool in his place
For the benefit of you, him and whoever he teaches
He may not appreciate it but he will benefit

All you got to do is say "Its not that I think you're ugly, I just dont do contact"

Facts fact, hes male, your female and we dont do it like that no more.

Thank you for all your very helpful comments.

I had to cancel last weeks lesson because I wanted to gather up more suggestions, as this situation has been putting me off quite a bit. He does provide a lot of useful comments and I have learnt a lot in the last 6 months.

What I find strange is that I helped him in a practical test that he had to do to assess his teaching. Two professors were in the room and he had his violin with him. Before this test (as I helped him prepare for it, what we were going to do , it was a teaching session) he said I'll have my violin with me, because teachers aren't supposed to touch students.

I've thought back to that comment a lot. He knows he's not supposed to touch students (he teaches younger children, so I do dread to think if he does the same to them?!), but yet he still does it 3 months after this test. If this was his approach then fair enough, but as someone who took a instrumental teaching module and knows about touching students, I've been constantly thinking about why he's still bowing his hand on top of mine.

My piano teacher of 13 years, who's male, always said "do you mind if i touch your hands to show you something". This to me just seems more polite, everyone has boudaries.

I have found a few more teachers, and will be contacting them soon.

Quite so - it's so easy to subscribe to the outraged approach. If there is a problem on either side, then both parties owe it to the other to discuss it first. Once this has happened, if there is no improvement, then clearly it is time to move on.

I think fairness does come into it - or I hope so.

Allan

If you've been using the same hairdresser or dentist for a while and you decide they don't suit you, do you owe it to them to discuss it before you switch to someone else? JuicyJen clearly doesn't want to discuss her concerns with this teacher, so why should she?

I think it's pretty obvious why teachers ought to make sure that pupils don't mind being touched, especially if it's a regular thing.

He's invading your personal space - he is either completely insensitive to the fact that you're uncomfortable with his teaching methods or.....

You've had to put up with this for a long time now, and if you are starting to use avoidance tactics perhaps now is the time to bring this to a head. Instead of direct confrontation, is there a spare violin that you could borrow from a friend? Say to him that as he keeps forgetting to bring his along, you brought one along instead! Add that you find it easier to watch what you should be doing rather than him showing you directly.

Hopefully he should get the hint - if not, drop him!

(If you're anywhere near South Wales in the near future, you could borrow one of mine..... )

I'd kind of agree with this...
It's possible that he fancies you and wants to get closer, but it's also possible that he thinks that what he's doing is an effective method of teaching and that it's acceptable to you. He may not realise that it's not acceptable if nobody tells him! Things like this can grow into momentous issues in our minds if we let them drag on without being assertive. What about broaching it at the next lesson as soon as you walk in, rather than wait till it happens? Just sit down and say that something's been bugging you and you're not sure how to put it, but that you really don't feel at ease when he does this and would he mind letting you have more personal space? He may well just accept it at face value with no hard feeling. If his intentions have been more than just teaching you how to bow, then I'd say you'll get the vibes pretty quickly, and that's when to decide whether to stay with him as a teacher. But whatever the outcome, it'll be a weight off your mind once you deal with it!

I couldn't agree more David. Certain, presumably innocent, comments can lead the easily fired-up crowds to start spreading rumour and ruin a person's career.

Once upon a time, touching someone else (appropriately, of course) was simply called human contact. These days it's more spectacular to insinuate that it's a form of assault.

I also feel it's a little shameful to back up one's arguments using a group of children that one has never met. The problem here is that Juicy Jen does not like being touched. That is her perogative and she has every right to tell said teacher not to touch her and then to change teachers if she wishes, but we do need to be careful of what we insinuate. Firstly, he may be touching other students' hands to show them things and they might not have a problem with it, secondly, touching a child's hand to show them where to put their fingers is not a form of abuse. Sadly, the over zealous shouty-people and easily enraged sorts have turned it into one - this is the reason a sad, crying child can no longer get a hug from a teacher in British schools. Perhaps we can all start living in bubbles and sueing people if they come within three inches of our bubble?

However, I'm not for one minute suggesting that JuicyJen is one of said shouty crusaders. Simply that SHE is the one who is uncomfortable with the situation, that it is wrong to assume that all other students will be equally uncomfortable with it or to insinuate that said teacher is less than wholesome in general, and that as it is effectively HER issue and not his, it is up to her to discuss it with him bluntly. She has every right to tell him to stop. If she can't face being open about her feelings, then changing teacher is the best option, I agree.

Let us not paint someone as a demon when we don't know if they are - the ABRSM forums aren't a tabloid.

As the person who started the thread, I do agree with the last two comments. I do not intend to ruin this guy's career, infact it hasn't even begun. He is still at university studying music, with the intention of becoming a teacher (I think...). As a teacher myself, I would not want accusations said about me, I do teach two young boys, who are on the brink of manhood, and ofcourse women get accusations and not just men.

However, I am not assertive at all, and try to avoid any types of confrontation, which is probably why this problem escalated so much. It is probably his inexperience as a teacher as to why he insists on bowing with me, he might think that this would help me.

I am glad that I posted this thread because I have decided that I am going to do two things:

1) Find out his email address and email him (the good old internet prevents face to face confrontation!)
2) Have one last lesson with him to see what he makes of it.

I do understand why I owe it to him to tell him. If he is going to teach for a living he needs to understand that he cant touch students because, to be quite frank, he could have a very nasty accusation against him and that's the end of his career. I do believe though, that it is common courtesy to ask someone if they want to be touched, whether they are the same/different ###, same age, older or young.

I think that's an excellent way to proceed, JuicyJen. Let us know how you get on.

Allan

This whole business of touching has become very fraught. My son has lessons with a Trust, who employ the teachers. The teachers have been told that they should not touch the pupils, so when my son was younger, in order to get his head in the right position to improve his embouchure (he plays clarinet), his teacher would move his head using a pencil.

My son came out from the first lesson where the pencil was employed saying how weird it had felt, and why couldn't his teacher use her hands to get his head in the right position (he was 14 or 15 at the time). As it happened, I knew why and was able to explain; but he certainly felt it was very strange, as no-one had ever done that to him before, and it had made him far more uncomfortable than if she'd been a bit more natural about it.

Sometimes I think we are so paranoid about abuse that we go completely overboard. A true abuser would not be put off by the "no touching" rule anyway, and it just makes life difficult for the vast majority of ordinary people. It's the same old story of a few bad apples ruining things for everyone else.

This is not to say that JuicyJen shouldn't mind the current situation. If someone is uncomfortable with what the teacher does, they should definitely say so, and the teacher should find a different way to teach them. I didn't feel I could say anything in my son's case, as his teacher had received instructions from her employer, but if he'd been going to her privately I would certainly have had a word with her about it. Tuition has to be comfortable for both teacher and pupil, and in an ideal world either should be free to make their feelings known to the other.

Just to say to JuicyJen that I think you ought to be able to tell him that you are unhappy with the way he touches you. In France instrumental teachers touching their pupils is still considered normal. My teacher has moved my arms and fingers, touched my stomach muscles (has also encouraged me to touch his) and this has never been a problem. I am, however, totally paranoid about anyone touching my throat (I can't even stand my own children doing this) and one particular lesson he got me to put my hand round his throat so I could feel how you open it differently for high and low notes and then wanted to touch my throat. I instinctively flinched even before his hand was anywhere near me and immediately said "Sorry I can't bear people touching my throat." He didn't insist; he asked me if I could touch it myself and when I said yes just said to try and feel when my throat was doing the same thing as his throat was earlier. He also remembered as, about a year later, when has was demonstrating something else he said "It is you who doesn't like anyone touching your throat, isn't it?" and again found another way of showing me. What I'm trying to say is that had I never said anything I would have been subjected to something I find extremely unpleasant while my teacher would probably have realised there was something wrong but been unable to pinpoint exactly what.

I'd never really thought about the subject of 'touching' until a while ago when my new violin teacher brought it up.
My old violin teacher uses to hold my hand and move the bow with me (although this was annoying) it didn't bother me, and she would move my arm and left hand on the violin to help with positioning frequently.
My singing teacher always asks me to feel her stomach (through the flab she always says ) and she has positioned my hand on my stomach before and this has never bothered me.
I suppose the were both woman though so its "perceived" to not be so bad.

However my new violin teacher (who i think i should add is quite young and male, not that this should matter anyway) wanted to change the position of my handin the first or second lesson, he sort of hesitated and said "hmm well im not supposed to touch you" and then sort of prodded my hand. I found it really funny because I'd never thought of it as a problem. He doesn't really follow this rule, and often gently moves my arm or hand and he has asked me to touch the muscle in his arm when doing an exercise. If what he wants to do requires more than a light prod with a finger and small movement he will always ask "is it okay if i just..." which I always say is fine. I don't really mind, though I can see why he was cautious about it, (im 15 and hes a male young teacher, that could be seen as bad i guess) but it doesn't bother me if it helps me learn.

Jen - I hope you sort out your situation, you should say something if you are uncomfortable with it. Tell us how it goes.

This type of thing makes me feel sad. I'm sure you explained the reasons well to him, but as a parent I'd find it hard to explain that there is a reason why it's wrong to touch in this type of situation; the implication is that all touch is sexual and as such is to be avoided. We are in danger of making the next generation paranoid about what is a natural instinct in everyday life - touching to demonstrate something innocent, showing affection, all sorts of things! Kids and teenagers need to grow up knowing the difference between friendly touch and sensual/sexual touch. And to go just a little bit further, are we leading the next generation to believe that sensual touch is intrinsically wrong? In a promiscuous era, are we doing the right thing to separate affection from s*x entirely? There is a grey area there that we need to know how to deal with. If a young teenager is led to believe that touch is wrong he may end up feeling guilty about warm feelings towards the opposite s*x and end up under the impression that he must give consent for all or nothing.
(I hope the censor lets me away with this post!)

Just reading this thread for the first time. At first I thought the teacher was ignorant of the guidelines regarding no touching, but obviously he's not - he's just choosing to ignore them!

I understand how difficult it is to bring up a concern like that and let things drag on. The only thing is that your silence has probably reinforced the behaviour. It may just take one person to help him realise he should ask permission first, to avoid a situation again where a pupil feels uncomfortable. He shouldn't take it for granted that they won't mind.

The email idea is a good one - hope it works out ok! Perhaps he'll be grateful. After all, you're speaking as a teacher yourself, so you could word it like "When I give lessons...."

It's good that you're taking it in hand, but I, personally, think it would be better face to face rather than in an e-mail. It's much easier to guage someone's reactions face to face, and an e-mail might only serve to make the next meeting more embarrassing. If he genuinely has no idea that his methods don't appeal to you he might really cringe when he gets the e-mail, whereas if you say what you have to say with eye contact you can both get over it more quickly. It will be less of an issue. And if it does turn out to be a major issue, then you're free to cut ties.

I hope I don't offend, but we're all very quick to assume that 'the guidelines' are founded in common sense. I'm not suggesting that it's right for somebody to be in a situation with which they are uncomfortable, but we need to be able to say that we feel uncomfortable, whether or not we can pinpoint the reason why. We need to be able to judge a situation in isolation, each situation being tempered by what we know of the individual and our relationship with that person, without our judgement always being governed by guidelines set down by 'above'.

Under normal circumstances I rarely touch a pupil during a lesson, the odd hand on shoulders to stop them raising up maybe, or with pianists, asking them to let my hand take the weight of their arm to illiminate tension and thats it.

There is one exception and that is Phil Dixon who is as much a friend as a pupil, who is greeted with a hug, and given another hug on leaving. Nothing more than that... after all I'm a married woman, and its clear in observing how Phil interacts with people he is a "hug" person rather than an hand shake man.

I can demonstrate everything else I want a pupil to do by doing my self and drawing a line on my own body and asking them to find the same muscles on their own.

With kids I ask parental permission first, with adults I ask permission first. If there is a major postural problem that needs correcting then I refer on either to an Alexander teacher, an Osteopath, or a Pilates specialist. If there is extreme muscular tension I recommend a theraputic massage.

It is too easy to cross the boundary between appropriate and inappropriate touch that I err on the conservative side. I don't want to get into any trouble.

Agree completely. I don't think it's 'common sense' per se, but rather what is currently acceptable/fashionable in society. I'm sure everyone over thirty can appreciate how 'guidelines' in schools have changed. Common sense as shown by a headteacher in 1977 (or even 1986) could get that same teacher today a spell in prison!




It seems that this is more in the UK and USA. Certainly I never noticed it in France and definitely not in Italy. Sad!

Steve