I'm looking for a bit of advice concerning a pupil of mine. The company i teach for took over from another company in a primary school in September. I took over all the piano students and as such most of pupils have learnt before. I have one pupil and I also teach his older brother. The brother seems to get on fine working nicely towards grade 1 and seems to enjoy his lessons.

The younger brother however is in a shared 15 min lesson with another child and right from the start of term has been very difficult to teach. He is disruptive in the lesson and will always talk and play over the top of the other child.

I have also found it difficult to judge his ability. In the first lesson I asked him if he could play me the last thing he learnt with his previous teacher and he played this fine. I then got him to start working on the next piece in the book. The next week he came back saying it was far too hard and "mummy thinks i should be playing this and that" So I go through something easier with him and the next week he comes back saying "mummy says this is far too easy" and refused to play it.

I have tried giving him a selection of different level pieces to play, I've tried asking him to write his own pieces and I've tried letting him pick his own pieces. Every week I get the same kind of response based around "mummy thinks that...."

I have also heard on the local grapevine that the mother doesn't think I'm any good beacause I don't write all the note names and finger numbers on the music for him. If there is a particular note or section he struggles with I will write a little bit in, but I don't believe in writing everything in because as I've experienced with some of the more advanced pupils i've taken over, they can play from memory really well but can't even name the most basic of notes.

Anyway, that brings me to todays lesson, where he comes in and plays me the piece we went through last lesson and I gave him for homework. In short he played it really confidently but with all the wrong notes despite the fact that I'd told him his starting point. I then started to explain to him which notes were the right notes and he kept telling me I was wrong and that he's learnt it right! I tried several different ways of explaining it to him and each time he just said "you're wrong"! To top it all off at the end of the lesson he said "Mummy said if you don't start teaching me properly then we're going to stop lessons".

I just don't know what to do with him or the mother. As I said the older brother gets on fine and seems to enjoy the lessons. Any advice on this awkward situation would be greatly appreciated!

Sarah

What a nightmare! I think you have to face it, a chat with Mum is the only answer. She may not be as bad as you fear - after all, the older brother is doing OK! Could it be a bit of rebellion from younger son because he doesn't actually want to learn piano?

I'm really not sure! I've tried talking to him in private to try and find out how HE feels about his lessons but he never concentrates enough to sustain any kind of conversation - he'll find something to fiddle with or will play over the top of me speaking (until I turn the keyboard off!)

In the end anything I speak to him about gets followed up by a "mummy thinks..." speech!

I have made my company aware of the situation but I'm just worried that this mother is going to spread her opinions of my teaching throughout the village.

Sarah

Definitely speak to the mother! You will never ever win this otherwise, perhaps the child is playing one of you off against the other... perhaps the mother is saying these things - if she is, I'd suggest that you just refuse to teach that child...

Sorry, I'm not a teacher, but that behaviour is so appalling that I felt I had to comment.

Poor you! There are a lot of different dynamics going on here between older and younger brother and then the mother that you probably have little control over. IMO I'm not sure teaching siblings works - hasn't for me anyhow, there's too much competition. I wouldn't worry about what the rest of the village think - if the mother and son are a bit difficult - I'm sure everyone else is aware of the fact. How long has he been learning? Does the mother know that he can't read notation properly yet? How much progress can she really expect in a shared 15 minute lesson?! perhaps her expectations are too high and that is why the son reacts badly to being corrected.

It might be worth enquiring whether this wee chap has learning difficulties of which you have not been notified. Just reading between the lines.

'Mummy' is not a piano teacher and you are. Would 'Mummy' be like this with his class teacher? Maybe she is!!

You are totally doing the right thing by NOT writing in the note names and finger numbers. As we all kow, that way they only learn to read note names and finger numbers, not music.

I would not stand for this from any of my pupils. One child last lesson cam back with one little bit which she had learned incorrectly. Apparently 'Daddy' had said it didn't sound right and it should be the other way. I explained in the nicest possible way why 'Daddy' was wrong in this instance and that I was her piano teacher, not him. But that was a one-off - if it was happening every week as it is for you, a little chat with the parent would definitely be in order.

Thanks everybody for your responses!

I do know that ultimately I need to have some kind of conversation with the mother - with my private pupils I wouldn't have a problem bringing this kind of thing up as I have a relationship with the parents - unfortunately as many of you will be well aware, in the school situation I have very little contact with any parents.



To my knowledge he's been learning for about a year and I've started looking at prep test stuff with him - on his mothers request!

I'm not even entirely sure that actually reading the notation is the problem - I think he probably can do it (as he's showed on the rare occasion). I think a lot of it boils down to him not concentrating and putting in a bit of effort with it and as with any child once they've learnt the mistakes they'll happily keep making them because its easier.

Sarah




I shall definately be speaking to his class teacher to check on that front and to generally ascertain what his behaviour is normally like.

I feel that part of the problem may be that if he hears his mother talking about a teacher in a such a way he may then think its ok for him to act up to be in a way he perhaps wouldn't with his class teacher.

Sarah

ALWAYS go to the parent with a problem like this first - NEVER tell the child directly in the lesson that 'Mummy' is wrong. This sort of situation needs the utmost tact. However right we are in our knowledge of music and teaching the child will always see 'Mummy' as the most important person in their lives, who they are emotionally attached to and might get very upset if we inadvertently criticise the parent.

Sorry I sound so emphatic - its just that I'm haunted by two situations where I lost two very promising and enthusiastic pupils. They completely clammed up and decided they didn't want lessons any more. Firstly, I told a pupil 'not to copy Mummy's playing' as the mother had poor habits when playing which I didn't want the pupil to pick up. In the other case I was teaching a piece with a broken chord dominant 7th in the LH which used the root, 3rd and 7th in an extended hand position which was new to the child. The following week the piece came back 'corrected' as root, 3rd and 5th 'because Mummy said it was meant to be that way'. I immediately said 'no Mummy is wrong' (gently) and put the 7th back. The child wouldn't even come back into the house let alone continue lessons!

A very tricky situation and I wish you all the best. Does the older brother expect note names and all the finger numbers? Peri busy has a point that maybe the young lad has learning difficulties and needs extra support.

Edit: only just read your post above - it sounds like you have similar views but might have trouble contacting the parent - good luck!

Argh!!!!!

Hope you manage to get hold of the mum soon. What a nightmare!

What a difficult parent! (and child)!!

Yes i think talking to the mummy is the only way, and explaning professionally WHY teachers should not label every note for the child, and explain the learning process of children to her. (I mean, who is the teacher here? If she's so confident that her opinon is better than a qualified professional then she may very well just take on the child herself.) Nightmare indeed. You could actually ask her how she thinks labelling everything is going to help her kid learn. She how she goes about explaning it. Doing that is just like CHEATING. Like doing your maths exam with a timetable sheet next to you.

But on the bright side, the older brother is doing well so i'm sure the 'mummy' wont think too bad of you.

I have students that are similiar, they couldn't concentrate for too long either, but, without the "you're wrong i'm right" kind of thing. At most my 4yo would just sudden slap the piano keys. He's 1-on-1 with me, and parent sitting in. We spend 15 mins doing percussion games then 15 mins playing. That seems to keep him interested. But back to your case, I know that its school based, but if this could become a 1-on-1 lesson with the parent sitting in, it might help.

Let 'mummy' know that if she intereferes with the child's education then you will stop the lessons - because its not good for the child's development to go to the lesson one day, and then go home where mummy says "don't do the homework - you're teacher's wrong". (Obviously the child doesn't feel that they need to respect you - mummy always says you're bad).


Fortunatelly I havent been in such situation (knock on wood), but have been faced with stingy parents who save up money to go to beauty salons and continually wants to cut her daughter's lesson time. Sometimes you really wonder whats more important - having permed hair or giving your child a good musical education?

Oh well best of luck with the talking.

Before talking to 'mummy' I think I'd have a chat with the brother (who inhabits the same environment but doesn't present the same problems).

I think I'd ask him how he practises at home and whether he gets any help from his parents. I think I'd direct the conversation to see if I could find out what's going on between the mother and the younger son that isn't (apparently) going on with him.

I'd do this because otherwise I'd be going to talk to 'mummy' solely on the basis of testimony from a small child who lacks concentration and is disruptive. In fact, if the older brother said 'my parents don't get involved with either of us' I might rethink whether I was going to speak to 'mummy' at all.

Best wishes

barry

It's possible that the younger one has learnt that what he says (to anyone) will carry more clout if he adds "Mummy says" to it.

I had wondered the same thing. And also whether he does the same thing in reverse by arguing with his mother " but my teacher says ..."

I wouldn't stand for being spoken to like that whatever the reason.

I know someone else said it's best not to confront the child, but in that particular lesson, he would have been told in no uncertain terms that I don't accept that kind of cheek so he can either behave or leave the room...

As others have said, it's best to phone mum and find out what she feels is the problem, point out to her the behaviour of her son during lessons (she may not know), and that you don't appreciate being told by a young chlid you are not teaching properly...

Absolutely, ad libitum! I'd be inclined to go by what you've heard through the grapevine about the mother spreading malicious negative vibes about your level of competence. She must be a nasty piece of work and I certainly would NOT bring the older brother into it. It sounds rather like a parent in denial that her son is not living up to his older brother's standards and rather that accepting it is trying to make you the scapegoat for whatever the inadequacies are.

Either confront the mother and say to her that you are reliably informed that she is being negative about you or else put up with the situation. Obviously you can't do the latter - that way madness lies! So just phone or call with her and have it out. It may be that you'll lose both children but it's a small price to pay for a bit of sanity. It will also show the woman that nobody likes her - as must be obvious from the way people have been very willing to drop her in it and tell you about the stories she is spreading.

Get rid - and quick!

LR

I agree with JulieCSM that you are right NOT writing all the note's name. I got students who are too lazy to identify the notes and sometimes ask ME to write it for THEM!

I see that you had try several ways and seems like they don't work out. Well, if the mom thinks she is cleverer than you, why not she teaches her child herself.

If someday the student stopped the lesson, don't be discourage. Coz you know u have try really hard to make it works. kay?

Ernie

really scary to hear your story....

how old is the child?? i wonder...

the best thing maybe have a talk with the "mummy" and the child, and ask them what they really want you to do with the piano lesson...

good luck

I think that a chat with the mother would be a very good idea. Oerhaps you could tell her that you don't feel that you are getting the best out of this pupil and talk about how much playing he does between lessons. Kids can be little brats at times, coming out with all sorts of amazing stories about what parents say and do. One that I hear often is "Mummy wouldn't let me practise this week because of ...... " followed by some very strange reason. "Don't worry" I tell them. "I'll have a word with Mummy after the lesson and we'll try to sort it out." Then the attitude changes and I am told that there is no need to do this as it only happened on one occasion when the child wanted to play rather than to go to bed or something! Be professional in your talk with her and you may well find her to be totally reasonable and nice. After all you are both working towards the same end aren't you?

I was thinking along these lines too. Some children will use "Mummy" or "Daddy" to cover themselves especialy if what they are doing is beyond them or thye are not really interested.

I remember my youngest in Year 1 telling the Teacher she couldn't do her homework as she had been busy dancing. It came up in general conversation a couple of weeks later, she hadn't been out at all over the time in question.

might be a good idea to do the detective work first and then speak to Mummy.

Because my eldest son has behavioral difficulties , we have inisted that the school runa "home school book" so that we are aware of any issues as soon as they arise. One week we had a comment about bad behaviour in his flute lesson - not too dissimilar to the thing you are reporting. I have made it very clear that we support his flute teacher all the way. I certainly would not tolerate that sort of behaviour in my lessons and neither should she. You might find "mummy" is far more on your side than this child makes you believe!

Thank you all so much for your comments and suggestions - they really have been very helpful in allowing me to process my thoughts in this difficult situation!

I have my next lesson with the child and his brother tomorrow. I think firstly i'm going to gently quiz the brother on the way they practice at home and how he feels the lessons are going to see if he brings up anything that his mother might have said.

All of the children do have practice journals that they take home for their parents to look at but other then general comments on his concentration and playing I don't feel its appropriate for me to communicate all my concerns in there when the child could read them. So what I have decided to do is to compose a letter to the parents in preparation, saying that i'm concerned about his concentration and the amount of work we are able to get done in the lesson. I will also gently mention that there have been some issues with the way he talks to me and that he often won't listen when i'm trying to explain something. I will make it clear that I can't keep teaching in this way as it is counter productive to the child and also the child that he shares his lesson with and I will also make them aware that I am happy to discuss this further with them.

I will then see how the lesson goes tomorrow and I will certainly be more firm with the discipline of his lesson (one of my weaknesses). If I feel at the end of the lesson that it warrants it I will send the letter home to the parents in a sealed envelope.

In all honesty I would rather they pulled the children out of my lessons than being constantly paranoid that they don't have faith in my abilities however, I do work for a company and its not my business to lose so I feel that I have to tread carefully.

Again, thank you for all your help

Sarah

A shared 15 minute piano lesson sounds like a nightmare anyway - I can't see how any child could make much progress in such a short time.

I just thought i would update you all on the situation. The day after I prepared a letter to give to the boys parents the girl that he shared his lesson with moved to individual lessons and he therefore had a lesson on his own. He was an angel! it was like I was teaching a completely different boy - there was no backchatting, we had a giggle and we got loads of work done! On quizzing the headteacher about him she informed me that he has dyslexia, a hyperactivity disorder and is what they class as a "gifted child"! I was amazed that nobody had thought to mention any of this to me. After speaking to the head teacher she has agreed to try and find the extra money for him to continue having individual lessons after christmas as she doesn't think the parents will.

Although it still doesn't really explain any of the mothers supposed bad mouthing of my teaching, now that the behaviour has improved I'm happy to let this lie, unless of course I find some solid proof that this is still going on!

Thanks again for all you help

Sarah

Thanks for the update Sarahk. At least a bit of clarification is useful - finding reasons for things is always helpful even if they are only partly explained. As you say, why nobody thought to mention the child's situation is hard to understand - I never enjoy teaching with one hand tied behind my back either !

It sounds as though this child may do much better with a one-to-one lesson and I hope it's possible to continue this way and that he progresses and you enjoy teaching him.

Wonder why no-one thought that information might be useful to you!

Hope he does get to keep the one-to-one lessons...

post deleted.

They probably thought it, but, communication in schools is sporadic to say the least....

Perhaps it never was happening if he's a bright child he could have been making it up.

Heaven preserve us from bright children.

I'm glad mine were both delightfully average (and polite!)

Mel

Come on , Mel - not all bright children have behaviour problems! There are just as many "delightfully average" children who are difficult.

Glad you have lovely, polite children anyway. I've always hoped mine were well-behaved too, although it's hard to know when you aren't with them for much of their day.

True! We all live in hope, but we don't always know for sure!

Hey! We're not all bad. But we are bored....

Didn't realise you were a child, Rosemary.

I know that when a child is out of range we can't be sure of them but I only ever had reassuring comments from relatives, teachers, neighbours etc about my admittedly lazy, untidy, noisy but civilised sons.

My only gripe is when a badly behaved child is let off the hook because of being 'bright', as though that excuses them. To me, their brightness/intelligence should give them more of an insight into how their behaviour affects others.

Deep waters here because I know other issues might be a factor but I've no time to expand now and have to go! Nice children have problems too!

Mel

I teach a pupils who can't tell her left from her right so we have come up with an alternative strategy my side, door side, When we move into the music room I'll have to rename door side, but other than that we've cracked it!

Bleeurgh!!
Can't believe I said that! I'm beginning to sound like a fond mum. My sons would cringe with embarrassment and they don't deserve that!

Oh, all right then. Perhaps I should have said Heaven preserve us from bright children like this one.

I have no problem with the ordinary type, provided they are not allowed to get away with mu

No. Let's just leave it there. (Phew)

Mel

Fair enough! I'm 16, just so you know And officially 'gifted' whatever that is supposed to denote!

Had parents evening for my youngest (and apparently "gifted child" tonight). Teacher said "Well, she's well above average in all subjects. I have nothing else to say really. Do you have anything to say?" I asked why she was doing the same mental maths tests as she was doing last year "Well, it's good to have easy work some times". Well... she did yr 4 maths and did well at it, and English last yr... and ok... apparently she's doing yr 5 english... but whole class is doing yr 4 maths this yr, so she has to too (she is in yr 4). Teacher said "I do put extension work there, and she'll do it sometimes but most of the time she choses not to".
Is that an ok attitude to have?
Sorry.... I'm digressing off topic but the more I think about her response the more odd it seems. Parents evening lasted 2 minutes.... and my teaching was re-arranged around this momentos occasion

My daughter, though, apparently is well behaved in school... she just leaves her more difficult behaviour for home time.

My daughters danced from being very young, one of their teachers devised a way to teach them left and right. She told the eldest to hold up her hands palms away. At right angles the thumb and finger make an L shape on the left hand. No use if there are other problems.