Hi all

I returned to regular playing in January after a long gap. I've working towards a diploma on the recorder and have fortnightly lessons on both recorder and piano. I've ony started having piano lessons again recently. I'm probably about grade 5/6 standard at the mo. To ease me back into the whole exam thing, I've been doing jazz as well as classical and am probably going to have a go at the AB Grade 1 jazz piano next term. I play with a couple of early music groups too.

Over the last few weeks I've started to feel really frustrated, as Iif will NEVER improve and get as good as I'd like to be. I know I am making progress, but it seems just to be tiny baby steps at the moment. In the ensembles I play with, I am constantly beating myself up (in my head, not out loud!) telling myself I am the worst in the group/ensemble.

I'm a very positive person, so it's very unlike. I was just wondering if anyone had any tips for banishing negative thoughts/how I can dig myself out of this hole...?

Be kind to yourself! Can you try to stand outside the situation and imagine you are looking at yourself as if you were a friend? I'm sure you'd tell your friend that she is making progress, which is really good, and that she shouldn't expect to run before she can walk! It's bound to take a while to improve, and it's less than a year since you went back to your music.

As to thinking you're the worst in every ensemble, I think we all tend to do this. It's really because you focus on your own weaknesses, but see everyone else's strengths. Try not to compare yourself with others, but just enjoy the music.

If you want to feel positive again, try not to be so critical of yourself. Get as much pleasure and fun out of playing as you can, and don't be so keen to see definite improvements. If you focus on the fun side, I bet in 3 or 4 months time you'll find to your surprise that you really have made progress

Hi jinxi

You sound very much like I was earlier this summer - doing more and more, and wanting to do yet more again. As well as my 1-2-1 clarinet lessons, I was in a clarinet ensemble, a jazz band, having 1-2-1 singing lessons, doing theory exams, planning to take up jazz clarinet in the summer... etc etc Much as I enjoyed all these activities, I realised that not only was it all putting me under a certain amount of pressure simply fitting it all in, but it was dissipating the attention I was giving to my clarinet. So now I've now given it all up apart from my clarinet and theory lessons, and the result is that I feel as if I can focus more on improving on my instrument.

Particularly with the two ensembles I was in, I realised that although I thought I enjoyed them, with hindsight they were having a negative effect on me. I found it difficult to keep up with the music, and it hadn't got any easier even after several months. So in fact they subtly made me feel as if I was failing, rather than having a beneficial effect on me.

Deciding what to give up wasn't too difficult. I looked at what I was doing, and asked myself which classes I was learning from and which ones I got enjoyment from but didn't learn much. Then it was easy to give up the ones I wasn't learning from.

I now focus completely on my clarinet, and when I'm at a higher level (assuming I get there!) I'll look at returning to ensembles again. By that time I would expect it to be easier to keep up and contribute more, and wouldn't make me feel as if I was failing.

I don't feel as if I've been very helpful here You wanted to know how to banish negative thoughts and I've told you to give up a lot of your activities and re-focus on the most important, which I'm sure isn't what you wanted to hear. Sorry But think about it anyway, especially if anything I've said strikes a chord.

Hope you get some more inspiring advice tomorrow!

Hi Jinxi

I think we all have these negative thoughts at times. Sometimes they're louder in our heads than at others. I think when we study music at a diploma level, the amount of expectation and self-criticism we pile upon ourselves really turns the volume of those thoughts up.

I certainly felt that with my singing for a while - not only did I feel that I wasn't progessing, but that I was actually going backwards. It was because I had a huge dent in my confidence that took a long time to recover. But eventually my confidence came back, and with it the quality of my singing voice. And I also found that the work I was putting in, while I was feeling I was going nowhere, did pay dividends later on.

So what I'm saying is, the negative time will pass, and the work you are doing now will bear fruit later.

One thing that I think is tremendously helpful is to record yourself playing. And to revisit those old recordings a few months later. That will show you how far you've progressed in those imperceptible little steps - and you'll probably be amazed and delighted at how far you have come.

- it's so much easier in many ways to see one's own faults and mistakes and weaknesses... especially if you're an aware and musical person.

I'd bet good money that you're not the only person in your ensembles who thinks you're the worst person there - and you can't all be right




Remember also that if you were the opposite, ie could never hear anything wrong with your playing, you'd probably not progress at all.

I am a fellow sufferer of "Oh I'm RUBBISH" feelings. Horrible to be in the middle of. But clearly - you're not rubbish or you wouldn't be working toward a diploma... and progress is progress, and hard won skills and progress will stay with you. Are either of your instrumental teachers the kind of people you could talk about this with, maybe get some reassurance that you're doing OK

Not sure I'm making any sense bit tired! Try not to beat yourself up about it. I expect you're doing much better than you think

Hi!

some extremely sound advice above.

Maybe some less sound advice :
Some people find that getting really really busy helps them over a bad patch - no time to think.
Some use exercise, nature's way to get more seratonin flowing. Chocolate does this as well.
(Seratonin is what "happy pills" give you more of.)
I use introspection, but that doesn't work for everyone. My mother absolutely hates it
and gets mad with me, but it works for me. I ask, what is this bad feeling telling me?
and I follow it to its logical conclusion which is either so silly I laugh and get over it,
or else something I really did need to know, which is why I do it.
You have to be both honest and kind with yourself for this to work.

Lack of confidence could be lots of things, and only you can know; e.g.: not yet enough experience, unrealistic
expectations about how fast you can progress, poor advice or poor mentoring, unrealistic perceptions of
yourself (you're better than you think you are), other people running you down and you're not noticing it
and being manipulated, and so on.

:hugs:

A couple of (positive!) thoughts:

I think I'm getting better with the negative thoughts thing in a number of situations. Not that I don't have them any more - I do, quite a lot. I'm beginning to accept them though, know that they will be there, acknowledge them and then get on and do whatever it is I need to do anyway. It's a lot less mentally exhausting than trying to rid myself of the thoughts in the first place.

In the learning situations I've been in being the weakest player in an ensemble is a great place to be - you've got all these other people to learn from and pull you up to their level, I always end up significantly raising my game in this kind of situation. Where you're the strongest in a group there's always the temptation to coast a little.

Good luck with the jazz piano - let me know when you've got to grips with it, I know a great little group you could join

Cheers everyone.

I know what you mean about wanting to be in everything Skylark. I know I am probably overcommitted, but at the same time I really want to hang in there because I know I will learn so much from playing with other people. Not easy though as I have a toddler, job and family to juggle.

I think what annoys me a bit in one group I play in is that I seem to always be on the lower/supporting parts.
I'd love a chance to play the solo/lead parts now and again (not inconceivable, as everyone swops around) but I feel as if everyone thinks I'm too ###### to do it, even though know I could. Reframing it a bit - taking on board what some of you have said - I wonder if I'm not asked because the more experienced players want to play the lead parts all the time and haven't considered I might want to have a go.

If I said I wanted to, I'm sure they wouldn't object, but I would be scared of messing up. The other night, we were playing Christmas Carols - of all things - for a 'gig' we've got coming up. I did end up on the top part for some reason and they asked me to play the melody up an octave, but I couldn't actually see the score very well (v.small). I kept making mistakes because I was concentrating on putting the melody up an octave on a score I couldn't read very well. I thought to myself: "Oh well that's me then. They'll really think I'm ###### if I can't play a bleedin' Christmas carol won't they?" I just can't shake the feeling that I am somehow a 'handicap' to every group I play in.

It's silly isn't it though? In the early music group I play in, someone was struggling a bit in the last rehearsal as he'd missed a few weeks, but I didn't really think too much about it/him!

I would love to do a performance degree one day - my recorder teacher doesn't seem to think that's unrealistic - but a little voice in my head keeps saying 'You're not good enough though, are you?" I had a place to study music at 18, but bottled out at the last minute because I didn't think I was good enough. I know everyone says 'just enjoy it' which I do, but I think part of really enjoying music is feeling competent and that you're not the duffer in the group.

It's very reassuring to hear that others feel they are the worst in an ensemble!

Anyway, that's a ramble, but thanks for all your comments.

TSax are you playing in the Studio Sounds concert in a couple of weeks? I'm playing a solo. Yikes!

p.s. What is wrong with the word 'rubbish' I wonder?

This is a little off on a tangent, but only a little....

Your experience is somewhat typical of the 'gosh, I'm so rubbish ' feelings musicians get. You say you're normally a positive person, but in this domain you exhibit a negative response. On the face of it, something like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) might be helpful. The aim of CBT is to change the way one behaves or reacts to certain events or thoughts; in this case, the aim would be to get you to not react so negatively to these situations.

I should add that I'm not urging you to rush off to a CBT practitioner; my tangent, as mentioned above, is that I wonder if any work has been done on the use of CBT to improve self-esteem and fulfilment in musicians?

No, I'm not I'm afraid - we wanted to because we did the one last summer and enjoyed it, but our bass player has another commitment and we're such a small group that we really can't do it if we have someone missing.

Call me cynical but why, when after weeks/months (how long?) the others haven't asked you to play the top part, do they suddenly ask you to play it now? Could it be that they knew they would have had difficulty with it too, but didn't want to show themselves up?

I might be completely and utterly wrong, so forgive me if I am, but this group sounds a bit cliquey. In both the groups I played with, the experienced people *helped* the less experienced. In the less formal group we negotiated who was playing which part so that everybody had a chance to play the top part.

I think if you want to stay with this group, you'll need to be more assertive. Tell them you'd like to try playing the top part from time to time, but that you've not had experience playing the top part so you'd like time to practise it first, rather than have it to sight read it at a moment's notice.


As others have said, we all feel that we are the worst in the group. Usually there is nothing for us to base this on other than our own tendency for self-criticism. Or could it be that others are making you feel that you're the worst? Do they give out subtle or even not-so-subtle signs that they think you're the worst? If so, then they are not doing you any good and it would be better if you left the group - and started your own group

The top part is often the easiest to play since it often has the tune and is fairly predictable. In the oboe group I play in my teacher invariably gets me to play the bottom line because I am the only one who can count correctly. Occasionally he lets me have a go at the top line so that I can have something tuneful to play but when he does, he usually plays the bottom line himself.

Maybe you're asked to be on the bottom parts because they know you're reliable to play them. They're what holds the music together, and you need competent players to play them.


Not silly - human nature! *wry grin*


^ Exactly.

I definitely think I need to get more assertive. I also need to be less afraid of making mistakes in front of people. One of the more experienced guys regularly makes mistakes when he's playing things through the first few times. The other doesn't - BUT - he all this fancy stuff which sounds improvised. The other I looked at his part and saw he makes a note of what he's going to do in his fancy runs etc! If I'm logical about it, I think he probably either practices a lot or knows the music so well he doesn't need to worry. He's the one who does seem to get a bit twitchy if people don't get things right first time.

The thing is they've been playing together for ages and they just expect me to 'slot in'. I feel awkward if I'm presented with a tricky rhythm (this is very early music which looks deceptively easy - some of the syncopation is a killer) and ask if we can play it through a few times until we get it.

Yes the problem is definitely me. Maybe I should make a joke of it, say 'look you all know my sight-reading is ###### or whatever...

Just been catching up with this thread, and I don't think there's anything to say that others haven't said already except I'd be cautious about making jokes like that. I do it often, it's so tempting, but if, for example, you make jokes about your sight reading being rubbish, you will probably be labelled forever as a rubbish sight reader, no matter how much you may improve. After a while it will start to grate on you, I can guarantee it.

Don't worry, I'm sure you're not the worst in the group at all! Probably the ones playing solos etc aren't the best exactly, but the most confident, and the most... assertive. I know that I have to be almost pushy in my choir if I ever want to sing any solos, and then I panic that I'll show everyone up, but I don't think I do.

I dunno how you can dig yourself out, but if it's any consolation you're not the only one it happens to.
I've been scuppering my piano stuff lately - the worse it gets, the more I'm convinced that I can't play it, then I make more mistakes, get more convinced that I can't play the thing, and it's turned into a vicious circle.

I had a piano/recorder lesson on Friday (postponed from Tuesday because I was ill) and it didn't go well - I hadn't done much practice (because of being ill). Did some work over the weekend, but with the "I can't do this" mindset, so it was decided un-fun even though I could tell I was making some progress.
Lesson today was the worst ever. I went into it expecting to play badly, because practice since last lesson hadn't been great (or plentiful, as I'd had play rehearsals, organ practice, a day out for ensemble playing, went to an organ recital, etc.) and I stuffed up absolutely /everything/ - including recorder stuff that had been more or less spot on before. The negativity from the piano stuff kinda infected my recorder playing.



I really /am/ going backwards with piano. It's not just a feeling. My teacher is really stressed out about it, as I have exams on both instruments in less than 2 weeks. And I'm picking up on her concern and getting even more negative about it all myself. And today I went backwards on recorder too.



I agree that being the weakest tends to be good in terms of how much you learn and how fast/far you progress.
But in terms of how you feel when you compare yourself to the better players, it can be scary. I don't want to spoil things for other people by always getting lost or not being able to play things.




Sounds rather unfriendly of them. :-(

I've started playing in a recorder quartet recently. I'm quite definitely the least experienced musician in the group - the others are all music teachers and I'm around grade 5 standard in general (I have g6 in one thing, but am rusty at that - everything else is g5 or lower).
At first I was really nervous, especially as we do a LOT of sight-reading. But the others are really friendly and are quick to own up to the mistakes they make (which reassures me that I'm not the only one making them). They're also very encouraging and seem to have more confidence in my ability than I have myself.
I never ask to play the top part, because I don't feel 'worthy' of it, but I get given it sometimes anyway. Last time I got put on the top for a whole bunch o' stuff from Terpsichore. Was terrified at first, but I soon got into it and had an absolute blast. I'm sure any of the others could've played it better than I did and wouldn't have had to ask how certain rhythms went, but I did OK and it was awesome fun.

I hope you can find some people like that to play with - a fun, relaxed group, where everyone gets to have a try at different parts (but isn't forced into things they really don't want to do - I'm staying off treble/bass recorder parts in the run-up to my descant recorder exam to avoid confusion over fingering and the others are very understanding about that). Ensemble playing should be about everyone having fun and being part of a team.




That's how it ought to be! (And how my recorder quartet is.)



I really am the worst in my group, but someone has to be and it's OK to be the worst as long as the better players are encouraging and friendly and don't make you feel bad about it. I'm going to get as good as they are at some point, though by then they'll have got even better, so I'll still be the worst. But I'd rather be the worst player in a group of good musicians than the best player in a group of bad musicians. :-)

Good luck with it all,
T.