I have a beautiful talented oboe student that I am extremely proud of. She is taking her Grade 3 on the 9th of November and should do very well. Her trouble is she lacks self-esteem.

So at the end of the lesson I asked her to score herself on a scale of 1-10 over how good she thought she was. Her dad, sho is equally proud of her achievement was in the room, and she promptly burst into tears.

I handed her a tissue and suggested that she gave her dad a big hug. We then spoke for ten minutes about the number of comments I had received about how much she had improved and how well I thought she would do in the exam. I know she feels she lives under the shadow of a more talented sister. Now this is out in the open.

In a way I'm glad it happened. She has now admitted to her dad, herself and me how she really feels and can address the issue. As someone who has suffered from low self esteem myself. I can identify with her problem, but know that no-one can help her until she admits to herself that she is talented, and can do things.

I think with what you have described, these are very good tears, especially with her dad there (who probably had little or no idea but now does).

But I was all ready to be grumpy then... I've been reduced to tears a couple of times by teachers, and in both cases had a very hard time ever going back to the teacher (one music, one not) simply because they had made me feel so bad and made me cry because they had vociferously pointed out my shortcomings to me. Actually, no, they pointed out shortcomings in my work in a way that made me feel like a sorry excuse for a student who shouldn't be wasting their time. (It was pointed out to me, much later, that maybe some of my difficulties with one tutor in particular weren't because I was a bad student, but because they were not [yet] a good teacher).

Hmm, now I think about it, I suddenly remember three or four different teachers, and one manager - who reduced me to tears, each time in a good way. And in all of those instances, I felt so much better for it (if, at later times, a little embarrassed - until I realised that I was far from the first and most definitely not the last person to dissolve at them)

Well, why was she crying? Did she think she had done well or not?

Normally I would say the answer is 'never' unless the tears are of joy.

I've had a pupil break down....because they felt they were under too much pressure....yes older sibling too... the pressure wasn't really from me.

I think in this case it's a good thing; she has obviously been feeling like this for some time, and despite the fact she is an excellent player she can't seem to think past the fact she needs to be equal to or better than her sister. The fact that she cried in front of you (and her father, granted, but more importantly in front of you) makes me think she can trust you as a teacher. After all, it's you that can really see her progress, that can see how well she is doing and what potential she has. After this has all come out and she has told you how she really feels, you are in a better position to make her feel more positive about herself. And as a teacher that's one of the best jobs!

When the 'good tears' situations happened to me, it would have been something like this:
So, on a scale of 1-10, how are doing?
<long silence>Um, well, I don't know, I mean, I'm not sure, probably 2 or 3, because, you know, I'm not very good
You don't think you're good?
No
Why not?
Well...*mumble*...{burst in to tears}

The tears arrived out of the conviction of being rubbish/utterly unsuited to where you are/what you are trying to do/etc. Just the fact that you try and try and try and are still pittifully useless.
And then these strange people all around you find out that you consider yourself pittifully useless - because you finally break down in front of them - and suddenly it's all out there in the open and it is a HOOOOOOOOGE relief that you don't have to live with this alone anymore, and you might even find the people you broke down at help you make things better.

Making someone cry can be a very good thing for all concerned when done properly

It sounds like this has opened up communication between you, the girl and her family, which is a good thing.

In response to other people's remarks about teachers making pupils cry (which I realise isn't what happened here Jo!) my piano teacher used to make us all cry! I have never made anyone cry, but once had a boy sniffling and welling up because he was so frustrated with himself and the way he was playing that day, and another boy turning up late to a lesson - in tears because he had missed 10 minutes!

In this case I really wanted her to address a situation that everyone around her knew about but had never heard her admit. Cathartic tears can be good too. They are healing. I hope that next week she comes in beaming and socks it to me!

In your case it seems to be the 'good tears' - it was more pressure building up and letting it out that way isn't hurtful, it was helpful.

I think as piano teachers we should never 'hurt' students, i never like to cry infront of anyone, and i've thought of it this way even when i was a kid - just didn't want to show it. But as far as regarding piano lessons - i never even had the feeling of wanting to cry, my teacher was very nice - never harsh. He never said 'no thats wrong' .. didn't even say 'no' at all. All he did was demonstrate his version after i played.

But last year i had this other teacher, it was only for 2 lessons - a sort of work shop but it was 1-on-1 (part of my course). Now i know my harmony isn't that good, thats why i'm going around entering courses: to learn more.

During my first lesson with a beethoven piece he started asking me a whole lot of harmony questions - where does it change here, why, what should it be, all expecting me to have quick answers. I usually go totally blank when i'm questioned like that - the pressure so i took a longer while.. and some i couldn't answer.

But he didn't try to help me, instead he insultingly said:
"You teach? WHAT do you teach your students?!"
"You SHOULD know all of this"
"Why don't you know this? Who is your teacher?"
"Maybe your teacher is good, but he realise ur ignorant" etc


Gosh.. that was a big OUCH - not because of the humiliation, its because he doesn't see whats happening - i know i'm ###### but thats why i'm continuing to study and join courses.. so i could improve myself. Just very off-putting, i honestly hoped the workshops would help me but not only did it not do that, it also left me hurt and red-faced during the lesson, and then bawling my eyes out once i got home Despite his insensitivity, he is very talent and smart. I just wished he would enlighten me with some of his expertise.


As a teacher, criticism is essential only if constructive.

ohh i'm sorry for the censored bit.

i meant.. "i know i'm not good"

As someone who works pastorally a lot of the time being married to a priest, I believe that the pastoral care of my pupils is essential in their development as performers. This is the reason the girl came to me in the first place. Her family liked the professional but maternal nature of my teaching style. I believe in a very holistic approach to teaching music whatever instrument or discipline I'm teaching. However I would not have felt as comfortable asking that question if her father wasn't there. I know the strength of the bond between her and her father. I've seen it in action, and its great.

The other thing David, is I'm considerably older than you and sometimes things do sound better coming from a woman fast approaching 40 than a man in their 20s. The self esteem issue is also one I've had to address myself. This meant I felt I had the skills and experience to tackle it, and in this case I needed to start head on, then admit she was not alone.

I think we have to face the fact that some people cry much more easily than others. If we're teaching a young person who we know cries "at the drop of a hat" we can deal with the situation fairly easily. I have a student who cries quite often and I'm a very kind person and always want my students to enjoy what they're doing. It used to really bother me and I would try to find out the reason for the tears, but now I just accept that it's part of this girl's make up and just continue the lesson, usually introducing a light-hearted moment to cheer her up. I'm happy to say that none of my other students cry!
I only ever remember being reduced to tears once in a lesson - when I was at college and my piano teacher (better not mention her name in this forum!) gave me an unusually hard time one day, criticising every little thing. In the next lesson, she went out of her way to make it an enjoyable one, although my tears from the lesson before were not mentioned. I guess she had just been having a really bad day!

In this case the family prayed for me whilst I was in hospital, and my hubby and the pupils father frequently chat in the sitting room whilst I'm teaching. As I'm still not up to driving they're even giving me a lift to her exam.

Glad everything worked out!

I don't think it's the right thing to do, making a pupil cry, whether you have good or bad intentions. I don't think you did intend that she would cry, so that's different. Using the fact that she did break down to address a few issues sensitively seems sensible.

What about being human?



Don't feel the need to justify yourself, Jod.

Sometimes it's necessary to put down the professional barriers and just be nice to someone. David, go and watch Evan Almighty.

As I said before..I had a similar thing....and was glad it happened. I got the parent in and made them talk...Any sort of teaching involves pastoral care.... when I worked as a class teacher there were times I felt more like a social worker...or even marriage guidance counsellor.
You are able to deal with more through age and life experience..... but it is also wise to tread carefully,especially if you are not comfortable.

Well, I've never intentionally made a pupe cry (although my humour probably drives many of them to tears!).

Sure, pupes get upset sometimes and it is a large part of the job to deal with these situations caringly and tactfully whilst maintaining a professional distance. One can only offer true, impartial advice when not emotionally involved after all.

Regarding the self-esteem issue in Jod's original post, it can be so difficult with sibling rivalry - or perhaps "awareness" is a better word as I'm sure there is no conscious rivalry. All one can do in these situations is isolate the individual pupe's achievements. Although it is nice to have someone to admire or look up to, we all need to learn to work within our own limitations whilst still getting the best out of ourselves.

Bag x

I've only ever made 2 pupils cry in nearly 20 years teaching - once was when I announced I was leaving the job to go abroad, and the 2nd time I'm not proud of, but I was trying to sort out a pupil's rhythmic problem and she couldn't get it with counting it out carefully, so I was demonstrating, and every time I played it, she copied it back wrongly and unfortunately I was getting more and more frustrated that she couldn't hear the difference....(I was a lot younger then!.......) and my impatience must have been starting to show as I saw a tear slide down her face - stopped that piece immediately and changed tack and did something completely different......... but I still feel rotten about it......

I had a pupil cry in a lesson recently. I did nothing whatsoever to provoke it. The pupil was frustrated with himself (aged 6!) as he made mistakes that he "didn't at home". He is a highly intelligent pupil, already possessing Grade 1 Distinction, and had had a bad frustrating day at school. He kept putting up his hand to answer questions and the teacher ignored him as she had to concentrate on foreign students with English language difficulties. He had found this frustrating and then when things didn't go right in his piano lesson, big tears plopped off his cheek. There was no way I would have ignored those feelings, he needed an adult to understand and empathise with him. I provided that listening ear and then "lightened up" the lesson with some fun duets so he went home smiling

I do think teaching is much more than just teaching notes and rhythm..................

I'm the mother of a good young piano player (gde 8 with distinction at 13) who still can get tearful in lessons.

It is always a case where is perfectionist nature means that he's frustrated that he i) can't achieve the sound he wants ii) can't achieve a standard he knows he can get.

They aren't the easiest of children to work with and I have great admiration for his teacher who essentially ignores the eyes welling up, eases up just a wee bit and later returns to the troublesome bit.

He, certainly wouldn't welcome, nor need any anylasis from her - his tendancy to emotional volatility is inherent in his personality - he'll cry at movies, books etc and has done since quite young.

So I think these kids need dealing with on a personality by personality basis - what is the right approach for one wouldn't suit another

Just think ... some lucky lady is going to land herself a sensitive new age man!!!

The only other pupil who has cried in a lesson had just come across what she thought was an insummountable hurdle and had had a hard day at school too. So I listened told her all the really good things I liked about her playing and broke things down into bits. by the end of the lesson she was smiling.

As teachers we have to be aware that extrinsic factors affect the way our pupils feel when they come into lessons.

I felt very bad when I unintentionally made a little girl cry simply by working on the same few bars several times. She evidently thought I was cross that she hadn’t got it right and that the repetitions were a punishment. I frequently work this way with other pupils and it’s always light hearted with a few laughs over mistakes and trying out different ways of solving the problem. This child obviously couldn’t cope. I did feel really bad until I discovered that she cried at school also when asked to correct work. She was not a very able child and was apparently under stress from demanding parents. I tried to have a chat with the mother but she refused, doing the next best thing to cutting me dead. The child stayed until the end of term and then left. She did pass her Grade 1 but when I phoned to invite her to the presentation of certificates tea party her father more or less told me to get off the line.

I have another child who cries so regularly in lessons that it has now become our little joke. She is very bright, very self critical and a beautiful recorder player. It worried me a lot and I went to great lengths to avoid anything that might induce tears. Then I heard from another child that in an English test in school she cried because she only got 19 / 20. After that I was able to have a word with her mother who said not to take things too seriously because “J” was like that over everything. So now when I see the tears welling I try to make a little joke and things are improving. I think she needs to learn to laugh at herself a little so I try to let her see me laughing at myself.

Tears can bring a teacher up short, giving the message that maybe a different approach to a problem is needed, but as has already been pointed out, they can also be due to all sorts of other baggage. Not all teachers are equipped to manage pastoral care, and I do agree with jod that this is something which is more likely to come with experience and maturity - but the key is empathy rather than sympathy - being closer in age to pupils can actually be a handicap, because personal experience very often gets in the way when trying to help. (No two people have the same experience in a similar situation, and their solutions to a problem will almost certainly need to be different). I don't think music teachers should set out to provide pastoral care to their pupils, but some may well find themselves asked to do so, and the important thing is to stay within the comfort zone for both teacher and pupil. What can be very difficult it handing the problem back to the pupil without seeming to reject them - if you aren't comfortable doing this, then you shouldn't be taking on pastoral care.

I was following the 'debate' about 'pastoral care', inappropriate things for teachers to tackle blah blah and I am sorry but I just cannot see where Jod has gone wrong in any way in this case. All she did was to ask the little girl to rate herself on a scale between 1-10 (or was it 0-10?).

I can't see anything wrong with that question, I can't see how it is inappropriate with anybody at any age! The fact that then the girl went onto crying is not her fault! I don't see how it was Jod making her crying. Of course it would depend on the tone of the question and I am sure Jod used a nice tone with it.

When I was younger I used to cry at EVERYTHING, if you went 'buh' I would start off and never end, I had very low self esteem, again like the girl in this situation I was comparing myself to a very intelligent/talented/extremely well behaved brother, but it was never anybody's fault really, actually, if I have to give anything or anyone fault then all I can remember is my mother always comparing me to others and how I could be 'as pretty as Jane down the road' IF ONLY I wore that dress and did not have that silly hairstyle and other comments on the same level, maybe that has contributed 'just a little'. Sorry, went off onto memory lane there

I think in this case the situation turned out to be a very positive one and this girl is lucky to have such a sensitive teacher.

I don't think you're the only one, David ...

Although I cannot see anything wrong about what jod did (things like that do happen occasionally), I would be wary to mix into things too deeply and especially: To do it on purpose. And to prevent misunderstandings straightaway: I don't say that this happened here, because the question she asked was perfectly alright.

Still: I strongly believe that it is NEVER right to intentionally make a pupil cry. If it just happens, it is a different matter of course, and sometimes good things can come through it. But the thing is: A music teacher is NOT a psychologist, although we are walking a thin line sometimes. It is not our job, and we should keep our hands out of it.
And that doesn't mean that I teach without empathy, and that I don't sometimes let my students talk about their day or what is bothering them at the moment if I have the feeling that it is distracting or keeping them from concentrating. But I don't start it off. And I strongly believe that we DO need professional distance to our students. I am neither my students' buddy, nor their counsellor.

As for the age question: Of course experience gets bigger with age, but there are 50-year-old teachers who have no empathy at all and 20-year-olds who are very mature. I don't really think that we can judge people's empathy on their age (I actually find this quite patronising to be totally honest).

Having read the original post again, and again, I'm afraid it is impossible to judge what happened and how it happened. On the face of things, Jod asked something perfectly normal for a teacher in lesson to, and the pupil started crying. We don't know how it was said, in what context, how the pupil took it, what her dad had to do with things. Kids will be kids, and can cry without warning. We don't know all the facts, simple as that.

I am always careful with my pupils, especially the younger ones. So far no tear have come, but you can never rule it out.

As for the age thing, sometimes I feel being closer to their age is a good thing in this respect. Are kids more likely to be upset by a young, open minded new teacher they are closer in age to than a 50/60 something teacher who forget what it was like being that age and is so much older to the child?

Still: I strongly believe that it is NEVER right to intentionally make a pupil cry. If it just happens, it is a different matter of course, and sometimes good things can come through it.

Strongly agree.

Are kids more likely to be upset by a young, open minded new teacher they are closer in age to than a 50/60 something teacher who forget what it was like being that age

How open-minded is it to assume that an older teacher will not be ?

When I was younger I also might have made that comment. I now know better. I am a better teacher now than when I started out because I have had the time to learn from so many different situations that I have had the time to meet. If you are reasonably sensitive and observant and have spent a lifetime in contact with younger people I don't think you forget very easily how you felt when you were younger yourself.

I think that teachers younger than me probably have more physical energy to spend on their teaching and
bring many fresh ideas to the profession. They may know a lot of things I don't because their education will have been different. Conversely an experienced teacher is just that - and experience teaches us a lot. Every generation has a contribution to make to the next.

What I said wasn't to be taken too literally. All I was trying to say was how silly the argument of age having a particular effect on how we treat a pupil is. There are old teachers who are horrible, incompetent. Does it mean all old teachers are like that? No. Similarly young teachers have made mistakes and upset people, but not all.

I would support the others who say you must never intentionally reduce someone to tears, not that anyone is suggesting it happened here. Unfortunately it does happen with some people, especially when they are lacking self esteem. How we handle such cases says just as much about our character.

I did say that the ability to provide pastoral care is "more likely to come with age and maturity" - meaning having evolved as a person, rather than stagnated - and the "more likely" doesn't mean everybody, just observation of the sort of thing Aquarelle describes - experience equipping us better to help than when we're relatively raw and new to it; I hadn't intended to sound patronising at all, if I was meant in the various remarks above. Of course personalities play a part in this, I've seen extreme ends of the spectrum too. I still think that it isn't really in a music teacher's remit to provide such support to pupils as a matter of course - it can get in the way of the business of teaching and learning music, makes teachers vulnerable to being drawn into time and energy-consuming work for which they are not trained and for which they have no support when it gets "heavy".

I'm speaking here as a music teacher who is also a psychologist with counselling skills training.

There will sometimes be issues which arise during the course of a music lesson which may need to be taken further. The important thing is for the teacher to know when the boundaries of his/her role have been reached, and when it might be important to suggest that the issues are dealt with by someone with more specialised training.

A student reduced to tears because of perfectionism and frustration with his/her own performance is not an unusual situation, and teachers should be prepared to deal with this kind of situation. A student who is unable to play because of a traumatic day at school (which happened to me on one occasion) is a slightly different matter. As a one off, I let her talk through her frustrations for the duration of the lesson rather than insisting she played. It was a one-off incident, and normal lessons resumed the next week. If this had happened more than once I would have been alert to the possibility that the situation was going beyond the boundaries of what I should be dealing with. Fortunately this didn't happen.

The difficulty arises when pupils happen to be the children of good friends - it's difficult to keep the distinction between teacher and buddy, as I know the kids well from church and outside too......

You'll be pleased to hear that the pupils who came out of her lesson in tears last week had a beaming smile throughout. I gave her mock exam and a mark of 120, and she is now going into her Grade 3 Oboe a very confident bunny!

I too have a pupil who cries very easily but it's always when she has difficulty in mastering something as she is a real perfectionist. Last night she cried because she just couldn't master the sight reading and her exam is on Tuesday. In the end I just left the sightreading and moved on to the pieces and tried to jolly her up a bit. I thought she was over this crying business after she started secondary school a year ago but No!