Hello folks

I've been mulling something over which I'd thought I'd better bounce off everybody and invite feedback....


I'd like to try to ensure that adults who would like to perform (maybe for the first time) are aware of concert opportunities, but I'm conscious that not everybody wants to join or participate in a forum just in order to take up a performing opportunity.

At the same time, I'm conscious of the pressure that there might be on solo slots at the next concert, and as I've mentioned in my first post, I also want to try to ensure that new performers have at least one ensemble to play in before performing a solo if they wish to do one.

So in an effort to try and kill several birds with one stone, I'm mulling over the following proposition...


As well as the concert for forum users on May 31st, there would be another concert for adult learners on Saturday 3 January 2009 (at the same venue). At the May 08 concert, priority would be given to forum *users*, ie members who contribute to the forum community rather than members who need to join in order to play at the concert but for whatever reason, don't wish to contribute to the forum. The May concert is, however, an opportunity for new members to get to know many of the existing members, so new members would be welcome on the assumption that they intend to become forum "users". The January 09 concert would give adult learners, whether forum users, non-users or non-members, the opportunity to perform without necessarily having to join the forum or contribute, and I would be planning to also do some active promotion locally for the adult learners concert. I'm thinking of making the age threshhold 18 years for the adult learners concert because this is the school-leaving age when performing opportunities become fewer or non-existent.


I know what I'm suggesting may be seen as a little controversial, but I'm suggesting it in a spirit of trying to give *everybody* (over the minimum age) the opportunity of performing a solo slot and in one or more ensembles, at either or both of the concerts. I would appreciate feedback on the proposition, either on the thread or privately (preferably by email if you have my address - I know my inbox will be full after one more PM but I'll try and make some space this evening). After some feedback, I'll also need to check that the mods are happy with whatever is proposed if it's different to what's happened in the past.

I've chosen the Jan 3rd date for a number of reasons, one of which is that I don't think it will clash with other organisers' concert plans as there are not normally any forum events just after Christmas.

Thank you

Are you saying that in order to do a solo slot a condition is that you must also take part in an ensemble or do you want to try to ensure that new performers play in an ensemble earlier in the day so they are less nervous?


Not meaning to sound suspicious or critical, just that sometimes I can't get my thick old brain around things.


Either way count me in for everything pretty much, as long as I get to inflict my horrendous squalking on the maximum number of victims, sorry, music lovers, I'm happy.

January 2009 may be ok if it's going to attract mainly local people but there is a possibility of a clash with the South East Adult Learners concert which usually happens at the beginning of February.
If, as the experience of both Katyjay and myself would seem to suggest, you mainly attract forum users then those who do travel would probably not do both. In that case I don't think it would be entirely fair to have a date so close to another established event. Personally if I had to make a choice about something like that (I don't in this case as I'm quite near to Leeds) I would stay with the more established event.
You have already seen for yourself some of the problems of encouraging people to take the plunge and participate though maybe as you have the music school to draw on you would have a bit higher success rate than we have so far?
I'm also not entirely sure that immediately after Christmas is an awfully good time to go for.

Some other thoughts going from first impressions....

Who would coordinate the ensembles?
how much would this take up space for solo slots?
Putting relative beginners together in small ensembles is not going to be awfully successful without someone to help them to play together.
Also beginners sometimes feel more at sea in an ensemble than playing solo...... even when the material is pitched at the right level.

Yes the latter!

This is what I said in my first post:


I didn't mean to imply that it was *obligatory* to play in an ensemble if you wanted to apply for a solo slot, but simply that I will try and ensure that new performers have the opportunity to play in one or more ensembles prior to their solo if they wish in order to gain "on stage" experience first.

I thought that was probably what you meant.

No matter what the date of a 2009 event in Leeds that would be my choice over the South East event as not driving, Leeds is not too bad for me to get to. Of course not everyone has the same transport restrictions (or perpetually smug demeanor because they don't own a car) I do.
I can see the point about people already planning to go to the S/E event not also choosing to go to a Leeds event around the same time. They are at opposite ends of the country though and I'm sure that there are people in the Midlands and further North who wouldn't plan to go to the S/E event but would attend another Leeds event.

There were a number of reasons for choosing this date:

- it's half way between the Forum Users concert in the early summer;

- it has to be during the college break as otherwise there are classes on a Saturday morning, and most people don't want a Sunday; having it during an alternative college break would make it closer to the other forum events and I don't want to clash;

- particularly because it's the middle of winter and Christmas, I didn't think that it would clash with the Teddington concert in February. Although some people may come from longer distances, I don't think they would come to Leeds in preference to going to Teddington, particularly at that time of year, even if they attend both.



Just to emphasise that I have no wish to clash with any other forum event - the 2007 and 2008 forum events calendar has events in every month except January (sometimes up to three events in the month). None of the other events during the year in consecutive months are perceived as clashing, so all I've done is offer the opportunity of an event in an unfilled month... surely it doesn't clash, particularly when they are at opposite ends of the country and it's the middle of winter and Christmas when very few people would want to travel long distances

The date isn't set in stone, but I saw it as the only time of year which *wouldn't* clash with an existing event.

If we don't have a second concert, I'm concerned that it may not be possible in May to accommodate everybody who wishes to perform a solo, which is what I would like to do. Surely it can't be a bad thing to try and extend the opportunities

I can see both sides of this coin and don't want to get into any angry discussions.

This may or may not be an appropriate point to mention that it would be really nice to have more events in the North. I realise why most things happen down south as that's where the people who are willing to organise them are. It's just expensive for all three of us to travel to London and beyond.

Perhaps Skylark a Playday on that date would be good? I'm only biased as there is no-one to here to participate in an Adult Learners event

Another couple of thoughts......I'm adding them as the occur to me.
I understand your thoughts on providing performing opportunities but how many forum events have been seriously over subscribed? (Not been a problem so far with Adult learners by the way).
And as we are largely talking about the same people give or take a few wouldn't you then have the possiblity of tow oversubscibed events tather than one.

Thanks for your feedback sbhoa and others. There's a lot of points take into account, so if you'll bear with me, I'll answer them either tonight when I get back in, or tomorrow. I have to go now, but please feel free everybody to keep the comments coming if you have any. And I'll try and clear some space in my PM box tonight if anyone would rather contact me privately.

Thanks

Excellent idea Skylark, and it will be nice to have something to look forward to in grim January. Your commitment to providing opportunities for adult learners is commendable! I'll certainly be there in May. (and probably Jan. as well)
N

As Skylark has taken the opportunity to once again highlight opportunities for Adult Learners I'd like to also remind newer forum users that there are another 2 Adult Learners concerts during the year in the South East and North West. These take place in February and July and information is pinned on the Forum Events board. Next year will be the 4th round of Adult Learner concerts.

Saturday 19th July : a proposed date for a Manchester area Adult Learner's concert from sbhoa


Can you say if this date is confirmed yet sbhoa?


A

Not yet but should know by Christmas.
I've had to find a new venue and am still waiting to hear from one place which happens to be top of the list for choice at the moment.

Thanks.


A

Ooh! I might be able to come this year...

W

Please remember that this thread is about the Leeds events.
Sorry to have caused the hijack Skylark.
Any further posts or enquiries about other events to be posted on the forums events sub forum or directed to the organisers by PM please.

...and I hope to go to Leeds as well!

W

b-c's thoughts...

* The forum calendar for '08 is crowded, yes. There's also a number of events that are close together, yes (the ones that come immediately to mind are the MH bandstand gig and Leeds at either end of May, and katyjay's Teddington AL do and petrat's Anglesey forum do in early Feb/early March.) Also, by necessity, the recitals are generally close to other events, and also close together, but there's no other way of doing those. But there are no AL concerts within 6 weeks of each other, similarly no forum concerts within 6 weeks of each other. These events are rather more substantial than the two hour evening recitals. For that reason, I think it's unwise to put 2 adult learner events THAT close together (equally it's unwise to put two forum concerts within 6 weeks of each other). At least a couple of months between similar events is wise, and will save upsetting others.

* On the face of it, it's a nice idea - but it is, really, too close in time to Teddington, and possibly a bit close distance-wise to Manchester. I'm a great believer in spreading the AL/forum event calendar across the UK (which is why I'm really happy about the geographic spread for 2008). The poor Scots have been waiting for a forum event for ages, and we haven't been to the South West, or the West Midlands, or anywhere in the North of England north of Manchester/Leeds. I'd like to see some new events in brand new places in 2009, with a good spread of some of the old favourites too.

* A small point - thinking of 2009 now is I think a little early! My mind tends to go to the new year's events from about June.

* To save my poor typing fingers typing identical comments, sbhoa's thoughts I think are all wise ones.

* ...and to end on a slightly cheerier note, I'd love to hear of some other ideas for new events. My PM box/email inbox is always open. It would've saved others getting upset, as with the above idea skylark, if I or others had run the rule over it first. I'd have warned you that katyjay would (quite understandably, in my opinion) have reacted like she did. Have a good check you aren't scheduling similar events together time wise especially, and talk to others before popping things on a public thread.

*leaves discussion, wearing heavy duty tin hat*

Skylark invited feedback. People have given her feedback, both negative and positive. She may or may not reconsider the idea as a result. Isn't that sort of discussion what the forums are here for? What would be gained by taking private soundings first?
Her post makes it clear that she did think about possible clashes. It's a matter of opinion what sort of interval is needed between events. I think it's reasonable for her to ask everyone about this, not just the organisers of other events.

Thank you everybody for your comments.

As I said at the beginning, this is just something I've been mulling over and I wondered whether there would be support for it or not. I take the point that 2009 is a long way off, but it impacts upon the decisions that I have to make for May, which is only 6 months away. I also have to bear in mind that the venue may get booked up for any potential date.

There were 27 performers at the last Leeds concert. Many have indicated that they would like to come again, and others have also indicated that they would like to come too. If the new year 2008 is anything like the new year 2007, there will be a large influx of new forum members after Christmas, some of whom may also want to come. In the absence of any alternative arrangements, it is likely that quite a number of people would have to be denied a solo slot. This is contrary to one of the principles behind the Leeds concerts, hence my looking for a solution and an adult learners concert seemed an option.

I envisage that any adult learners concert at Leeds would be entirely different from the forum users concert. I do not necessarily envisage any large ensembles, although I do envisage some small ensembles. I envisage that the solo slots would be longer than the 3 minutes or so which was the limit at the last Leeds concert, and/or there may be the opportunity for attendees to perform more than one solo.

In suggesting an adult learners concert over the Christmas period, I envisaged that most of the attendees were likely to be reasonably local, eg the north of England. I don't know whether it would be possible to attract non-forum adult learners or not to a concert in the Leeds area, but there is only one way to find out!

An adult learners concert at Christmas surely wouldn't affect the Stalybridge concert in July? If it did, I believe it would be advantageous if anything - at least one forum member who came to Leeds who had never played in a concert before, subsequently went to Stalybridge a few weeks later, having "caught the bug" for performing. And I am more than happy to promote the Stalybridge concert in the Leeds area - as I did this year with both leaflets at my college and on the college web site.

I have no desire to cause any detriment to the Teddington concert, nor do I think this would happen. However, I would be particularly interested to hear the views of people who may be thinking of attending Teddington, either on the thread or privately. Would you go to Leeds instead of Teddington if there was a choice, or might you go to both if they are within 6 weeks of each other, or would you not want to travel very far anyway if the Leeds event was at Christmas?

Barry, I think your post raises a number of wider issues which people may wish to make comments about as well.

Thanks again everybody for your feedback and please continue to contribute your views

The forum events and adult learner events are now getting to be a very substantial enterprise. I'm spending an awful lot of my spare time working on them now (both my own and other people's - I'm helping out at both Belfast and Leeds in '08 too).

The timing between events is important - because it may affect the viability of events. It's not just the fact that it might affect attendance at Teddington (and the fact it may also mean the event makes a loss), it'd perhaps also affect the attendance, and thus the finances, of any Leeds AL concert too - and I really don't want to see skylark or anyone else have to shoulder a loss on any event.

Barry, that's understood, of course. No-one is questioning the value of your contribution. I'm just saying that, if there is any doubt as to the effect that a new event might have on existing events, asking for people's views in the forum seems a reasonable way to clarify the position.

As an adult learner who tries to go to as many forum events as I can I'll add my two pennorth.

Geographically I am much closer to Leeds than Teddington. Last year I was unable to go to Teddington due to a prior engagement, this year I have not (yet) committed due to it being such a long day for me to drive there and back, and after my illness earlier this year I have not been feeling up to long days, and also I have been recently so engrossed in my Grade 5 stuff I've not wanted to divert. Now that's over I am thinking of new repertoire (hurrah!!!) and forum events are great opportunities to have a reason to really work up repertoire for performance, and get some feedback.

If there was a Leeds event in Jan (btw 3rd is a Thurs, did you mean 6th?) I would almost certainly be there, and I would most likely be able to persuade the quartet to come too.

The Staleybridge concert is not a clash with this, and (if I have no diary clashes) I will most certainly be at this one too. The quartet have been unable to do Staleybridge (I think for the same reason Willobie has not been there, it clashes with a recorder event which our Viola player goes to), if it is on the 19th then we may all be able to do this one too.

I am still mulling over whether to go to Teddington or not. The fact that there would be a Leeds event the month before has no bearing on my decision here, it would be made purely on my feelings about travelling so far in winter, and my energy levels vs an opportunity to play in another event (which I always enjoy doing), and what is more important meeting fellow forumites and old friends for a day's music making.

It might be useful for other adult learner performers here to say if Leeds in Jan would mean they would choose it to the detriment of Teddington in Feb, so we have the facts about if ithere really is a clash or not before saying no to Skylark's idea.

3rd Jan 2009 (which is a Saturday), not 2008 Jane.

D'oh!!!!!

Thanx for the clarification (I will now rub it out my diary)

If you do find out how to attract a significant number of non forum users to an AL concert then let us in on the secret please.
Both Katyjay and myself have been actively (sometimes almost aggrssively ) promoting these events in our local area for the past two years with little effect so far. This is the way we both would like these events to go, the ideal being that places would have to be limited to forum users from outside the area. Of course at the moment these areas are rather large, roughly being North and South of England. Then hopefull AL concerts could expand to other areas if there were people to take them on and timing of them wouldn't be much of an issue.



I also go to several form events and to the Teddington AL concert.
My first thoughts are that if there were the two concerts close together like that I'd probably support the Leeds one as well as I could be would be unlikely to play a solo because of preparation time.
A date so soon after Christmas would also cause problems for me as regards preparation time as I have extra things to play over that period both at Church and with the orchestra. It's one of those times on the year when I feel I'm fighting hard to keep up enough preparation for my piano lessons ot top of other distractions.

I might well go to both. I certainly wouldn't feel it was one or the other.

Basically I wouldn't be going to Teddington, I don't have a passport for travel south of Watford,
For me personally Teddington is out at any time of the year due to transport limitations

Leeds that early in January I would consider but it would be dependent and the level of train service available that early in the January.

I do take it you mean Watford Northants and not Watford Herts!

I personally think that it wouldn't be a bad idea to remember that these things are meant to be fun and done in a spirit of learning and playing together. I'd be very surprised indeed if anyone thought of arranging stuff to purposely detract from another arrangement and I certainly don't think there's any need for anyone to be even remotely unpleasant about it and even less need to do so - either initiating or responding - in public. Music, for the majority of us, is a leisure activity, however good we are or would like to be and however much we enjoy it. It spoils it to take both the arrangements made here for playing together and ourselves too seriously. It spoils it for everyone actually and it doesn't add anything to the forum events. This is especially the case when ideas only are being discussed.

On the matter of distances and timing. It's worth bearing in mind that some people have a very small distance that they are willing and able to travel. I personally will only do the very local Leeds event and would be very unlikely indeed to travel even as far as Manchester. If enough people at any given location and any given time are interested, then why shouldn't something go ahead? I'm quite certain that mutually acceptable timetables can be worked out without any recourse to unpleasantness, accuasations and the type of dialogue that only causes upset, bad feeling and a tendancy to side-taking!

OK, will get off my soap box now and get on with the jolly old housework!

Fair enough comment but for me one concern is that if we try to have something on everyone's doorstep then there won't be enough people to make the events viable.
This is from my own experience of organising Adult Learners concerts.
I've also experienced shows of interest which haven't materialised..... you only know how much real interest there is after the closing date.

Whilst unpleasantness is always uncomfortable, I think that the amount of sheer hard work, planning and financial commitment on behalf of the organisers of these events shouldn't be underestimated. They are fun for the participants, certainly, but not always fun for organisers who have to underwrite any losses.

Some Forums members aim to attend all, or nearly all these events. A number of us make every effort to attend events outside our local area. One Forums member that I know of has been to every Forums concert and Adult Learners' concert so far. This involves considerable expense and time, not to mention having pieces ready to play or sing. Two events of the same type close to each other will naturally involve some of us choosing which we can attend, and will dilute the number of core members who help to keep these events viable.

Attending a Leeds ALC in January will be difficult for me, and will need careful thought. If sbhoa's projected date for Stalybridge comes off, I will at last be able to attend this event. I have been to all the southern ALCs. I really don't know whether I can commit to a Leeds event in addition.

I would definitely not in a million years consider travelling that far south for this event; choice doesn't come into it! As far as I am concerned the fact that there is an event in Leeds or Manchester or thereabouts is an opportunity (and thank you very much to the organisers...)- travelling all that way for a day would be a pain unless I was down there anyway. If I lived in Teddington I would probably say the same about Leeds, but that's just my opinion.

And I will add that the reaction to Skylark's request for feedback on her idea (I'm sure I need not quote it) has made me feel uncomfortably that this forum is not a nice place to be - I really don't think that that kind of response is appropriate in any setting, let alone a public forum.

N

Interestingly by rail, teddington is harder to get to by rail than Leeds from where we are, and by car, there is very little difference. - Thats only from Cambridgeshire!

I can see by attendance figures that there are forumites who charge around the country trying to get to everything, and yet at the same time I hear messages from people saying if only there was something in my area.

Well something has got to give. There are only a certain amount of weekends in a year. Are these concerts here to serve those who charge around the country or do we need to think geographically, and what about the financial implications on the person organising the event.

It is unfair to criticise Skylark for her enthusiasm. She has a trememdous enthusiasm and ability to organise these things, as I add does Katyjay. I haven't got to one yet. There are issues, childcare hubby transport that all need sorting out.

I'd have liked to have done Woodford, but I would only go if I had a solo slot and they have always been full. That's not me being prima donnaish I hope, but I am diploma holding performer who performs professionally, and it has to be worth my while before I go. I would enjoy the ensembles though, but naturally I'd want to sing too.

The ALC Concerts I'd support if I could drag hubby who is an Adult Learner with me, then I'd either act as his accompanist or offer my services to someone else.

So please think, whats this all about, before criticising anyone whose prepapred to do the amount of organisation required to put one of these concerts on.

Just a thought...we have in the past done some car sharing for forum's events. I am very willing to give a lift to people who want to attend and have transprt difficulties if (a) they are either in my neck of the woods or en route (and I don't mind going a bit out my way to pick people up) and (b) obviously I am going myself

I am glad of the company, much better than along drive on my own

Jane's been very helpful to me in that respect.

It's very sad - but sbhoa I feel may well be proved right in her assumption here, at least in the short term...



And indeed thank you andante, and everyone else on the 'front line' for the hard work in organising, and attending events. I hope I can make your next flute playday!

At the last Stalybridge Adult Learners concert out of 17 participants there were 5 forum members from distances of between 1-2 hours travel and 6 from much further away.
Form the immediate area there were 5 non forum users and myself.
Without the distance travellers the concert would have barely broken even and this was with an event open to non forum users.
I don't know the figures for other concerts and if concerts in more places led to people being spread more thinly then they would be in danger of being barely viable. I know that forum user concerts also admit over 14s but these are always low in number mostly due to parental resistance I think.

It's good that Skylark is so enthusiastic and maybe more concerts can be sustained but I can only go from my own experience. Then again there may be a large number of Yorkshire based forum members who want to take part in a concert and who would be able to fill a Leeds based event.

Any budding statisticians care to make a prediction based on attendance so far?

You got that right sbhoa! I'm willing to travel most places I can actually get to, but my parents arn't.

If someone throws some numbers my way, I'll see what I can do with them, but I hate stats even though I'm doing it in A level maths....

I think that having too many concerts would be quite difficult to keep afloat. Its great when people have the time to get to a large number, but realistically not everyone can travel long distances frequently. Personally, I would only be able to afford to get to 1 or 2 a year. (Imagining for a moment that I was allowed!) I'd hazard a guess that I'm not the only one..... If we are in the position of events being regularly oversubscribed to the point where you could almost put 2 concerts on, then I think that would be the time to think about splitting the concert into 2 seperate venues.

Just spotted this - and it's a shame you're feeling that way.

My thoughts have been based on considering everything - as well as enjoying the music, viability of events has to be considered - and my immediate reaction is that a Leeds adult learner event in January would be risky, for a whole host of reasons. As well as the risk of skylark losing money (which I think is a real worry, and this could then affect future events in Leeds), it does, if current attendance figures are anything to go by, risk affecting Teddington's viability.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see four or five adult learner events, four or five forum events (more than that I think risks the viability of the events) and a host of other playdays and recitals all over the events calendar, all over the UK, each year. But it's vital that organisers consider everything, including whether they'll lose a significant amount of money on the event. If they don't consider all the bits 'n' pieces that need to be thought of, the risk is we'll have less events, and with the massive strides these events have made of late, that'd be a great shame.

That's a very generous offer Jane,one I may take you up on in the future, I would be more than willing to share the cost of petrol of course.

I live just outside Derby itself.

I'm near Matlock...so just a gnat's crochet away. I've not yet decided whether to do Teddington (mainly due to my health but I'm hoping by Feb I'll be more up for it). I'll deffo be doing Staleybridge and Leeds as long as I have no clashes. And now I'm feeling a little better I may be getting back into the MH playdays. Let me know if you're interested in coming to any of these with me.

(and maybe we could get together and do a duo?)

A duet sounds great, We just need to pick some music. Anything around G4 level and I'm happy.

I'd already planned on going to as many of the MH playdays as I can as MH is easy to get to by train.


The only other thing I have definate plans for next year apart from forum events (the only concert I'd definitely decided on being Leeds for travel reasons) is Fiddle H'ell (stupid thing won't let me type the word) in Buxton in June. Have you been to FH before?

Sorry for the off topic post skylark - but I'll be having a chat to meerkat this month to set the next date for MH, and I'll let you know when it is

It's OK, really! I've been known to go off-topic myself, but at least your off-topic post is useful and relevant!

I go to most of the MH playdays and usually give a lift to another forum member who finds it more straightforward to come across the Pennines by train to Leeds and then by car to MH, rather than get the train to MH from Manchester. If anyone else can get to Leeds station and wants a lift, the more the merrier!

I've been to every one so far (and will be at Birmingham in Jan too) - good to see another attendee on here! Have you been to any previous ones?

Nope, this will be my first as I've not been playing long.


Sorry about dragging this thread off topic again.


So... Leeds..


There we are, all mended.

Yes, sorry for the divergence too.

I'm hoping to attend Leeds this year again - anything in the Leeds/Yorkshire area is fairly easy to get to so would potentially be interested. Further afield mainly depends on train times! Now, need to start practising something to play...

No I've not been but would be v interested

How about starting a thread on this a bit nearer the time?

Back on topic...
Yes duets would be good, lets pencil this in and think about what to do. Grade 4-ish would suit me too

Thanks for your thoughts everybody. I'll respond on the Adult Learners suggestion probably in the next day or two, so if anyone else has any thoughts on this, please feel free to post on the thread or email/PM me