I hope this doesn't prove to be a contentious first post, but do people think a male teacher might be better for a male student and a female one for a female student?

I am thinking of this at around diploma level.

ie: As things get more technical there is a greater difference between techniques and desired sounds from different voice types, so might a same ### teacher be more able to demonstrate/explain the appropriate techniques?

As a woman teacher the only voice type I would not teach is a counter tenor they need a teacher of the same s'ex and preferably a specialist in their field. A woman will know the rest of the techniques applied to both mean and women and vice versa. As I'm a coloratura soprano I have a flautino register that does allow me to do a little falsetto work, but true tenors should not need to do that at all. The vowels are the same, placing is as individual as the singer, breathing technique is the same, performers all present the same problems. Unless you are a Counter Tenor, there is no need to find a teacher of the same s'ex (even then there are women who specialise in teaching them). Just find one that you are comfortable working with.

I haven't had lessons for some time....I now teach..... I think one of the most important factors is your relationship with your teacher...especially the further on you are. I had female teachers in my late teens and early 20's.....but always felt that they wanted me to sing like them....consequently I am very aware of this when teaching others..... I then had a male teacher....very good...but something awful happened...which I won't go in to.
As a teacher I don't feel as confident with male voices yet.....although I have spent a lot of time thinking about the male voice...and talking to other male singers. I think a well established teacher would be confident and experienced with both s#### but it comes down to how you feel and finding someone who you are comfortable in working with....regardless of whether they are male or female.

Fair enough. I'm not a counter tenor, although I have on the odd occasion bolstered the alto ranks with falsetto. I'm a bass-baritone really, which unfortunately means I often have to sing tenor for choirs to boost tenor numbers - this is good for the range and has improved tone at the top end but I could do with having a bit of a rest from it.

I teach bass-baritones successfully and forbid them from bolstering the tenors it does your voice no good. I work with the voice a pupil has, working on their placement and tone. I want a good bass-baritone sound. You don't get that if you keep trying to sing tenor. If your choir splits go for first bass and aim for a good round tone. The trouble is there are too many choir masters who think if you can get the notes that's the type of voice you are. I sang alto for years and as soon as I gave it up my placement problems disappeared.

One choir I get to sing first bass, but another is rather short on tenors and if I don't the tenor part will often get lost. I know it doesn't really do me much good and I intend to put my foot down when it comes to Brahms Requiem next year. Fortunately my old school's choral society seems to have died at the moment as I was the entire tenor section for that - it was quite exhausting!

Definately don't sing tenor in the Brahms it goes up to Bb. Hubby is singing it at the moment, but then he is a tenor!

Yes, I know - I had a scan through and much of it stays too high for too long! Still at least we're going for German this time.

If you want a good laugh, last year I was asked to be the tenor soloist for a scratchy Messiah - fortunately I was in Newcastle that day, rather more sensibly I did the bass solo for Mozart's Requiem this Easter with a whole ten days' notice.

With the other choir we're doing a really nice Buxtehude Magnificat as part of the Christmas concert where we can enjoy the bass solo (all of us singing it) parts.

Out of interest do you have a teacher and are they a man or a woman?

I had a female one at Durham for three years, from a list that the university music department provided (I was doing physics), but that was ten years ago.

We went through the first movement of the Brahms last night, and I just sang bass without saying anything about it and some people noticed, but it was a lot more comfortable, then I swapped back to tenor for the Christmas stuff (plus I sang along with the altos for the SA piece)

You must tell your choral director that you can't sing tenor any more. singing a bit of alto won't hurt but over doing it at either end of you range is dangerous. I have to tread softly on my low notes too.

He'll soon work it out (if he hasn't already), and I only sing along with the altos sometimes in falsetto as a bit of entertainment - although they did rope me in to joining in at one concert on one piece.

I will get a bit more of my masters (surveying) done and then look into starting lessons again probably after Easter. As far as I can think of I have the choice of two Island based teachers, although I would consider any

I will probably be looking at A/LTCL as that seems to avoid the requirement for a Grade 8 first. However, the AB seem to provide a longer repertoire list, so would it seem sensible to present pieces from the AB lists to Trinity? For instance I did quite a bit of work on the Dichterliebe and Songs of Travel, there are also some oratorio arias I've have done all of which I think I could get reasonably polished. Then there are pieces from the Faure Selected Songs and the Double Dozen, but I would have to do more work on them to get the languages back up to standard again.

I'd recommend getting your grade 8 first. The trying for something like the Trinity Performer's Certificate. Oh and get yourself a singing teacher.

Is there any particular reason you say take Grade 8 first?

yes. There is a huge difference between grade 8 and diploma level. trust me on this one. Its a good consolidation level too, and cheaper to enter. If you get a good mark then you have more options open to you as well. Of course I haven't heard you sing. But it is easy to over-rate yourself. I've got a lot of work to do before I take my FRSM having passed my LRSM. So take Grade 8 consolidate and go from there.

The intention will be to get a teacher around Easter and see what they suggest. But I _think_ I'm being reasonably sensible that somewhere between A and L or Dip and L is about right, as I had three years of lessons with a university recommended teacher working on repertoire most of which is on the diploma lists and I'm fairly certain my voice and musicality have improved since then.

Anyway, hopefully we will have a bit more Buxtehude this evening as that means a nice bottom D, but I suspect it will be more Poulenc (Quatre Motets Pour le Temps de Noel)

I still say go for Grade 8 first, and I think you'll find most singing teachers agree with you. If you didn't have grade 8 before you had these lessons at Durham, I'm surprised you didn't take it then.

Being male - all my pupils are women - I have had a female singing teacher - no problems
Male teachers want you to copy their voice as well

It is more about experience and knowledge than gender A good singing teacher is a good singing teacher full stop ditto with coaches

me too... there's no point of rushing.... i had my grade 8 singing almost 3 years ago and i still couldn't be entered in for a dipABRSM or something like that.... i could sing those repertoire, but physically (i'm young and so as my voice) not developed yet...so, why bother with rushing everything through.... (plus, my teacher teaches at rncm and doesn't advice me to rush into things...)

I'm waiting now for a recommendation from a final year Guildhall student.

If you're London based I suggest you have an assessment lesson with someone like Linda Hirst who is very approachable and is significantly more experienced than a finalist. She doesn't charge a huge amount for this service either There are numerable other people in her position find one you think will work for you and follow their advice.

I'm lucky I'm close enough to Ely to have several fine voice tutors to chose between.

Merrily stuck on the Isle of Wight, which limits things rather, so if she comes up with a suggestion of someone I haven't heard of, fine, otherwise I will have to look into Portsmouth.

If I can get a recommendation on the Island fine, otherwise I will have to see what Portsmouth or Southampton university music departments can come up with. Somebody in the year below me at school chugged over to Portsmouth for his ARCO lessons.

Look as an ISM member I do have a vested interest in the organisation, however their registers are a safe way of finding someone reputable. It's how I found Vanessa, that plus local recommendations, and I wouldn't be without her.

Don't take pot luck and a one off trip to London for a consultation lesson is a good way to go for someone at your stage even before you find a regular teacher. They may know someone in your area.

I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that they have a very strict vetting system. Now if you can find me the MU equivalent and recommend it then please do.

There's a counter-tenor/organist in Southsea listed - that's reasonably straightforward to get to, plus his website says he runs a couple of choirs - one of which has a photo and I know two of the people in it, who I will hopefully see this evening, so I will ask them what they think.

This sounds positive.

How easy it it for you to get to Wells Somerset? because I know of a decent Counter Tenor there who could certainly help you out.

I don't want a counter tenor, I just thought I'd add that he is in case anyone thinks that might be an issue.

I know you don't necessarily want a counter tenor, just remember that when they're not necessarily being falsettists, counter tennors are baritones.

Its _possible_ he was the ARCO teacher for the person in the year below me at school, who is now FRCO and competing in international piano duo competitions - and is also now a counter-tenor, plus someone else in his year, and his elder brother are also counter tenors - maybe they put something in the school dinners!

They are Organ Qualifications not singing qualifications.

It is true that many good organists are fantastic choir trainers but you are looking for a singing teacher.

I know, that's just a co-incidence, after all you are listed as teaching piano and singing.

And the Oboe.

Piano I only teach up until Grade 5. Oboe I teach up to grade 8. I was pensive about that until my oboe teacher who got me to that standard heard me play recently and told me I was more than capable of teaching to that standard. Singing I teach to diploma level, and after my FRSM in singing I am planning to do an ATCL in the Oboe, under the guidance of my former teacher.

You must remember my primary musical qualification is not my LRSM by my BA(hons) upper second , which included in part 1 Singing, Oboe and Piano, and in Part 2 Singing and Oboe as my instruments. In addition I did historical musicology and composition in my part 1, and majored in musicology in part 2. I also took electives in Recorder, Conducting, Languages for Singers and Instrumental Knowledge Voice. So It was quite a comprehensive course.

I'd be very wary of looking at peoples post nominals to see what they really mean.

The ISM listing says singing/voice and organ both to diploma

Then you're safe.

I have done my grade 8 and am heading towards a diploma but I have also started university so i have been given a new teacher and I now have a male teacher where as the preceding 2 years since I started singing, I had a female. It was weird at first but a male teacher can teach a female just as well as a male!

Take a look at my teacher's website if you wish...www.michaelgoldthorpe.com

Annetta
xxx

With credentials like that I don't think you need to matter.

I'm sure he is experienced with all voice types.

One of the finest teachers at Hudds was a man who I got on with very well, he wasn't my singing teacher but he did coach me for instrumental knowledge and languages for singers, and had a full knowledge of the differences between male and female voices.

Jo

I know Michael very well. He's my singing teacher's partner and both are personal friends. He is an excellent teacher and very experienced.

I would agree about doing Grade 8 first to consolidate. It is not about WHAT you are able to sing but HOW your perform and to which standard. I would seek consultation lessons from both a vocal production specialist teacher and a good coach who can advise on interpretation. A coach who has worked with diploma level students would give you a fairly dispassionate view of your level of performance

What is your goal in obtaining the diploma - to sing professionally - to teach - or for the sense of achievement and validation of your abilities

Making money from music is notoriously difficult, and I don't think either of those options are realistic beyond a bit of beer money. But I play the organ and get asked to do bass/tenor solos for various things and it would be nice to be able to have some sort of music qualification beyond a grade 5 piano and grade 7 viola. So if the intention is to get a more impressive qualification it might as well be one that provides a different option of pretty coloured hood[1] to wear at vespers and evenscream - and I suspect the voice is the only instrument I will ever get to a sufficient standard for that.

[1] It will have to go some to beat the Durham BSc http://www.flickr.com/photos/shimgray/1500521258/

For some reason I've always had male teachers and have had great success with them on the whole. In fact, I did have a female teacher for 1 year, quite some time ago and in that period I felt that my voice suffered as she was sure I'd be a soprano and pushed and pushed for the top of my voice to open but I'm a mezzo soprano. Yes i have an upper range but I knew from where the natural breaks in my voice were that I'd always been a mezzo and infact, it wasn't really until my current teacher really opened up the bottom of my voice that I realised that I had the top end as it gave me a good solid foundation in the voice allowing me to reach new heights.

So, No, I don't think it matters what ### of teacher you have, as long as they are good and that they understand your voice requirements. I do think it's beneficial for say a mezzo to learn with a baritone, a soprano with a tenor for example as the equvalent voices seem to understand each other better and when the teacher demonstrates something it has a similar physical sound so it really helps.

Nice to have a forum on singers for a change :0)

I have had singing teachers of both kinds, (it won't let me write sexes here.) The technical side is much the same but my only reservation would be if a male singer is not totally familiar with the female repertoire in oratorio and operatic arias for example.


Ha ha. Fooled it with a plural.

Working as private music teacher part-time I earn close to the income tax threshold each year. That's because I choose not to work more hours as I'm fitting the job around a disability and my children.

It is possible to earn a crust as a musician, but it is hard work. Never regard Concerts as bread-and butter, they are the icing on the cake. Teaching is bread-and-butter money. You need to be meticulous about time planning and know your own stamina. This yeat I've done no performing as I concentrated on getting my LRSM. I hope next year will be different.

You also need to have the sort of professionalism that says if you're upright you work. I taught virtually as soon as I was out of Hospital, yet I've only really started to do paperwork this week. It's extremely rare for me to pull out of anything once committed.

Unless you make a lucky break you won't earn huge sums of money, but you can earn a living. However don't expect work to fall in your lap you've got to go out and sell your self and find it.

You're taught by Wendy then I take it?

I did a concert with Michael last year - he had to stand in for the tenor soloist in the Christmas Oratorio - the original one had learnt all the cuts, and none of the bits we were actually performing!

Yes, I studied with Wendy before I went to Trinity (a round trip of 250 miles each Saturday), and with her and Geoffrey Pratley (her ex-husband) at Trinity. I still go to her occasionally, but it may become more frequently in a couple of years time as I prepare for FRSM. Without Wendy I would not have the career I do now. She's brilliant, so encouraging, and a wonderful friend too.

Geoffrey was my coach the year before last at Trinity too. I don't really know Wendy - she teaches some of my friends, so I see her about. (I'm now doing my Advanced PG at Trinity)