Hello all,

I wonder is anybody can come up with creative ways of learning scales on the piano - hands together 2 octaves. I have an adult pupil who has been really struggling with this for literally MONTHS and it's now become a bit of an issue for the pupil! It's very close now - ascending appears to be fine - it's the last tucking under of the thumb in the left hand causing the problem but focusing on this causes the right hand to go wrong!

The history is:

Hands separately no trouble at all.

First learnt hands together one octave - this was fine

Hands together I have suggested over the months:

Playing with dotted rhythms, accenting various notes in turn, playing with eyes closed (to enable more focus on the fingers alone) and pointing out which notes the 4th finger in each hand is playing.

I think part of the problem is pschyological now and wonder if just leaving it for a few weeks might help. The pupil is very frustrated now!

How do you all teach this?

Many thanks for any help!!

how do you all teach this ?

very similarly to how you have described it !

Many pupils do find this stage tricky. I find the danger spot is often that LH finger 4 on the supertonic halfway down - if that makes sense. You seem to have got past this point with your pupil - if I've understood correctly.

Is it the last 3-group in the LH that turns into a 4-group?

Sometimes pausing to think just before the danger spot can help, though you've probably tried that.

One idea:
there is probably a speed at which your pupil can play it correctly, even if it's four beats on each note, so find that speed, and slowly build up from there.

But I think if nothing works, leaving it for a while is probably the best option.

Chris

Thanks for the fast response!

What happens is 3-4-4 in the left hand (descending) so the last 4 notes are played with thumb-3-4-5. The pupil hoped I wouldn't notice that finger 2 was missed out!!

So we both know where the problem is. I was just hoping for some new ideas now that it's got so frustrating for said pupil!!





That's an idea - thanks!

I wonder if the pupil will have the patience to play SLOWLY though... Always difficult to get pupils to slow down I find.

What happens is 3-4-4 in the left hand (descending) so the last 4 notes are played with thumb-3-4-5. The pupil hoped I wouldn't notice that finger 2 was missed out!!

right, yes, I see.

It would depend whether the exam is imminent or not yet booked.

That is not a slip that is as much of a problem as some, to be honest and may well go unnoticed - it would be worse if your pupil ended up with a finger short, for example - that's harder to cover up neatly. If the exam is imminent I would possibly leave well alone for now - the examiner doesn't usually sit overlooking the keyboard.

If it's not, I think I would continue hearing "up only" scales for now, so that they stay at least partly remembered, and come back to the problem in the descending bit later. Playing very slowly as ChrisC suggested is also a good idea. I'd guess that the slip has been well consolidated in practice and that's why it's proving sticky. Hope something works for you and your pupil !

(ed) no, I agree just saying "play slowly" very often does not work. "Play in minims " or even "Play in semibreves" sometimes does. I usually start hands-together scales by playing in minims.

> It would depend whether the exam is imminent or not yet booked.

No, not yet so that won't be a problem!



> (ed) no, I agree just saying "play slowly" very often does not work. "Play in minims " or even "Play in semibreves" sometimes does. I usually start > hands-together scales by playing in minims.
> [/quote]


Oh that's a great idea - thank you!!

How about doing B major scale?
It is almost impossible to get the fingering wrong on this one because of where the black notes fall. Maybe playing only B major for a while would fix the fingering once and for all. This was the first scale that my piano teacher used to teach his pupils for this reason.

Try the thumb exercises and short-cut to scale fingering exercises in Fanny Waterman's Piano Lessons Book Two. For example - put thumb on a C somewhere in the bass and just loop round with 123 1 and back again about four times. The short-cut is great. Play C with thumb, then play B A together with 2 and 3 and then swing thumb under to G, back through BA and return to C again. It helps to keep a steady pulse for an easy swing under for the thumb. It works going down the whole scale as well - next group from G would be FED 234 altogether and thumb under etc. Piano Two and Three has lots of ideas for scale practice - each hand and both together.

I think pupils have trouble with the last thumb under in LH scales if they are not feeling the rhythm in the pattern.

Hope this might help.

It's sounds like a good idea but not sure how this would work since LH starts on finger 4 not 5 for B major?






Ok - I haven't got these books so I will look into them next time I'm shopping!

Thanks.

A few more suggestions:

- Play downwards scales only
- Shut the piano lid, and play on that, calling out the numbers in the LH
- Play the LH up and down - or just down - in clusters (3 4 3 5 if descending only) . Again, call out how many numbers in your 'group'
- Don't do C major! Scales with more sharps are way easier, as kerioboe so brilliantly pointed out. (Don't suppose the AB will ever latch onto this elementary fact..) I teach E major contrary first, and when that is well established, go on to E maj similar. B maj is also good, but maybe not for your student, as he is already doing 1234 in the LH, which is what you're trying to avoid.

Good luck!

It's funny how it's often that last bit of the descending LH that causes a slip-up! I've had quite a few students who play 123,1234,1234,1234 and so end up on a 4. You've already had lots of good advice, so I don't need to add to that, except to say that if a student uses the wrong fingering in an exam, but the scale is played smoothly and evenly, they might get away with it. Not that I'm condoning using incorrect fingering!

Don't know if any of this helps:

I describe scales and "regular" or irregular". Regular is the C major pattern and this applies to a lot of scales.

I also have (given to me by a pupil) a series of pictures of scales. There is a section of the keyboard for the RH and printed below the corresponding section for the LH. - over 2 octaves. The fingering is printed on the notes. These charts are A4 size so quite readable. I have no idea where they were originally printed. When we get to Grade 2 I give these to my pupils and they learn to play their scales looking at the chart. This doesn't do much for the theory side of scales but I cover that in other ways.

I also make them play slowly enough for me to say the fingering as they play. So at the strategic points I say things like "Left hand thumb" "Right hand 3 "

My experience has been that all those who try to play their scales too quickly too soon are liable to make mistakes. those who accept to play slowly enough to make the mental process govern the muscular are the ones who succeed.

I too have problems getting students at the early grades, to play scales with the correct fingering. I have a pupil at the moment, who did G1 classical and is now working towards G2 Jazz. The Jazz scales all have just F# in them (for G2) and start on different notes. She can't get the fingering at all, and ends up running out because she's tucked under too early. Her brother, working towards G3 (see my other posting,) has the same problem with scales with just Bb in them. Personally I think learning these "modal" scales at the early grades are a bit silly, they don't even sound nice, they just sound "wrong".Anyone got any tips on teaching the Jazz scales?

Eeee - I LOVE modes! They only sound 'wrong' because we are so conditioned in major/minor and nothing else. Learning modal scales is brilliant and helps you understand the structure of different scales so much better (we sing them all in solfa which makes the structure very clear).

THE SOLUTION! [or a good one I think for lots of people anyway!] for the standard fingering

Lots of time in approaching scales we teach the fingering thinking of one hand at a time, but here's a method that has worked successfully for me that thinks of both at once:

In what I've written below
- "1s" means also 5 just at the ends (as usual)
- and they need to learn that on the note ABOVE the key note it's the left hand that does 4, and on the note below it's the right hand

SAY WHILE PLAYING THE SCALE (e.g. 2 OCTAVES):

"1s, a 4, 3s, 2s&1s, 2s&1s, 3s, a 4,

(same again for 2nd octave)

(same again on way down - the great thing is that the same rime works both ways as it's the same backwards as forwards!)

(same again for 2nd octave down), 1s [at end].

The pupil needs to say it a few times to memorize it a bit and make it easy to say, then get them to play it while you say it, then get them to practise (slowly at first) playing and saying at the same time.

They'll suddenly start realizing some of the symmetry of the fingering that they hadn't noticed before, such as the 2s&1s twice in the middle, or the 3s together twice. Each person finds a different aspect the most helpful.

GUARANTEED! (up to a reasonable point, as in all these things!)

Hi there. I`ll just tell you what I do quickly see if it helps. Always works well I find. OK

You point out a rule for G major (and many more of course with same fingering) the 3rd note has 3rd finger IN EACH HAND and the 6th note also has 3rd finger IN EACH HAND discuss that for a bit as in "ok the 3rd note is B the 6th note is E". I`ve found that this rule really focuses the pupil giving a guideline for orientation. Of course it`s not the whole deal I also usually point out 2nd rule which is THUMBS IN THE MIDDLE (on G). Then when u try , say, D major "3rd note is F# 6th note is B" etc

This may help you to eliminate the other little problems one by one. One other thing, practising in short bursts can help it along I`ve found. Nothing worse than constant plodding is there. Hope that helps.


Good luck

Is it just me? I'm sorry, but I don't get it. Maybe I'm just having a bad day...

I appreciate the reply but I'm afraid I didn't get it either!! It made my head spin! :-)

Mmm... maybe I've not explained it very clearly, sorry...here's a bit more explanation:

Say as you play the scale: "1s, a 4, 3s, 2s&1s, 2s&1s, 3s, a 4"

means:

"1s" = "ones" = both thumbs on first note of the scale (with the usual 5 at each end of the scale - but the important point is that in the middle of the scale, where it counts, it's both thumbs playing on this note), so say "1s".

"a 4" = "a four" = on the second and seventh notes of the scale one of the hands plays "a 4" ("a" as in "a hat / a book", not the note A of course!), the other hand naturally plays 2 because of the sequence so that isn't in need of saying, so say "a 4".

"3s" = "threes" = on the third and sixth notes of the scale, both hands use finger three, so say "3s".

"2s&1s" = "twos and ones" = on both the fourth and fifth notes of the scale one hand plays finger 2 while the other hand plays finger 1. [Even though the 2 happens naturally, it's vital to say "2s&1s" rather than "a 1", as "a 1" is too similar to "1s" used on the first degree of the scale - and unlike with the fourth finger in "a 4", the 1 is also fairly natural here if they're avoiding putting a 4 here (or putting it anywhere but around the key note.] So say "2s&1s".

Hope that helps.

Let me know....

Try looking on practicespot.com you can download and print off scale sheets with the fingering written on the keys. Also it tells you where the 4th finger in each hand goes, as its only used once in each octave. I have found they have helped a lot.

What's the matter with you lot? I thought DomRUK's method was marvellous, and extremely easy to understand, even on his first explanation. (DomRUK, I assume you are male, as your method is so logical.)

When I first read the rhyme I tried it out with my fingers playing a "scale" on the table in front of my laptop and was delighted to see how well it worked, especially, as he says, it's the same backwords. You just need to read it properly and then give it a go.

Good luck with the pupil who's having problems anyway.

DomRUK what rhyme do you use for scales starting on black keys?

Well you pushed me into giving it another go and I can see now how it works. (I'll try to ignore your insult to female logic though!!)
I too had tried it out on the table in front of my computer, but as I said before, maybe I was having a bad day...

Well I'm male, but wouldn't want to assert any extra logic!

For scales starting on black notes I often point out if there are 1s twice (often on the two white notes involved, if there are) and the two groups of "2s&3s" and "2,3&4s" - as most easily seen in B major, but also teasingly in F major - try it!

Other than that, for other keys I like to point out the easiest versions of this sort of grouping that is useful.

Often with more complex scales I get them to think of the left hand on the way up and the right hand on the way down, if it's a scale where the other hand automatically does the right thing (due to where the 4th finger is used).