The title says it all, really. Does anyone know of any beginner piano books for children that don't glue their hands round middle C? If so, what do you think of them?

Thanks.

Alfred premier piano course - I would thoroughly recommend.
The 1st in the series starts on black notes & reading patterns & rhythm, moves onto white notes but no fixed position, then introduces notation. At each level there is a lesson book, performance book, theory book, "at home" book & flashcards. They're all interlinked so what you cover in the lesson book gets lots of reinforcement in the performance book, & is covered in the theory book as well. Lots of duets in both - so they get the satisfaction of creating "real" music from the beginning, cds with the books which they can use at home. The ones I have used this series with seem to be very confident of moving around the piano, & don't have the problem of associating a finger number with a note. It even seems to be working for a 7 y.o who'd already got through 2 piano teachers before he came to me & who'd learned to play entirely by finger number. His sense of pulse was also non existent but he's beginning to surprise me now by his sight reading & improvement in pulse/rhythm.

I use the Music Tree books a lot, two of the main reasons being that they use the entire keyboard from the beginning & children don't associate a particular finger with a particular note. They are also very musical & creative books & the children love them.

Alan Haughton's Play Piano starts the Right Hand around middle C, but introduces the Left Hand an Octave Lower. It means that children get a much better grasp of proper harmony at an earlier age.

I use Teaching Little Fingers To Play by John Thompson. The first half of the book does tend to be centred around middle C, but it isn't one of those that talks about "positions" and trying to make middle C the focus. It is more about reading the note and the finger number and through that alone knowing where the hands should be placed. I'm not a fan of the "C position", "G position" style of teaching because it automatically puts up a brick wall that will inevitably be crashed into.

I have never encountered any problems upon reaching the second half of the book where the songs don't always have first finger on middle C. Because of the method used the change isn't an issue as the students know simply to look at the note and the finger number and they know where to place their hands.

I hope that is of some help!

Then there is the Piano Adventures series - sadly still not as widely stocked as it deserves to be.
This is now my method of choice for most 6-8 year old beginners. RH is anchored round Treble G - which is, after all, the point of having the clef - and, similarly, LH round F. The pieces start with different fingers - often 3 on G (RH), which avoids the common syndrome of one finger being associated with a particular key.
This is why I abandoned Pauline Hall Tunes for 10 fingers, and other similar books. With Pauline Hall, it's about 2/3 of the way through the 2nd book before the RH thumb moves to middle D! Some children will have been playing for about a year by then - possibly longer..Me and my Piano 1 is also weak in this aspect. Piano Adventures moves the hand around from the start - which is what happens in real music.

I don't put too much emphasis on the letter name of the note to start with - it's really not that important initially (and, of course, the letter names aren't used in much of the rest of Europe!) . What's important is to have a grasp of the overall shape of a phrase, and how the notes move - not each individual letter. What's needed is a strategy to find the starting place. This is what the clefs are for. And this is where I take issue with Dogs and Birds - the 'animal' names are just one more thing to remember, and later unlearn. The actual letter name isn't as important as early learner books would have us believe.

Having read bevpiano's previous comments about the Music Tree I have used them with my latest beginner, aged 7, and she loves them - certainly a tutor I will use for under 9s in the future.

Thanks very much for these repies. I will look into them. I am fed up with pupils reading off fingering and not being able to sightread, and I'm sure starting the hands in one position for so long is part of the problem. I agree with HelenVJ - the names of the notes are not very important - it's the direction and intervals that count. When I'm sightreading I'm not thinking "that's an A", I'm thinking "that's a third higher than the note before". It should be possible to teach that approach right from the beginning... shouldn't it?

Yes - I agree names of notes do not need to be important. At some point we need to be able to refer to them and have the pupil identify quickly which note is meant of course - but I think it can too easily get in the way of reading notes in the early stages.

Much as I agree with HelenVJ too about aspects of the Hall books, I still find that Tunes for Ten works very well in getting young beginners to play. I don't have too much difficulty with children reading finger numbers, and if this looks like becoming a problem, we snopake surplus ones out. We also play around with different octaves and simple transposition so that most pupils become used to at least using most of the keyboard even if they are not yet reading a wide range of notes.

What I find often works quite well is to whizz fairly quickly through Tunes for Ten or something similar, and then find ways to get the hands out of the middle of the piano and using a much wider range of notes. Jane Sebba's Piano Magic book 2 is excellent in this regard, and I'm currently using it with some bright 7 and 8 year olds. The first book in the same series, although slightly less middle C based than some, is nowhere near as useful as book 2 IMHO, but it's less "stuck" than Tunes for Ten and you might like to have a look, if you don't know it, and see what you think.

One other thing that I sometimes do is to print simple tunes using ABC music (you can download it) to provide material that doesn't start on middle C.

I am hoping to encourage my pupils to learn their note names away from the piano with a series of books called 'Notespellers' Books 1-3 by Hal Leonard. I had some arrive by post this morning. They are colourful and attractive with some very imaginative games, puzzles and note-name stories to fill in.

I use Ten Fingers for my beginners but I too am always on the look-out for new material to help the pupil locate the lower bass notes asap. If the child can finish TF and start MTF within six to nine months, I will introduce the Blue Alfred Lesson Book Two half-way through MTF (on the Treasure pages when 2nd space C is introduced). The Alfred is good as 1st line G is also used quite soon. I like the teacher accompaniments too. I have used Jane Sebba Book One and I will definitely have a look at Book Two. I think someone else recommended the Hal Leonard Book Two recently as well.

I have a new Special Needs pupil just starting and the Alfred Premier Piano Course seems to be about right for him as it is off-stave and offers opportunities to freely explore the piano. The problem with off-stave methods for most children is that they want a familiar tune to play early on - and Pauline Hall does that brilliantly in my opinion. You can still teach by interval and direction. After all, music in general looks the same in any book - it's how we deliver it that matters.

PS Hurrah - my 500th post!

I find it rather hard to believe that names of notes are not very important. I'm not quite sure how one talks to a young child about written music without using some form of reference for sounds. Though I certainly agree that the shape of a phrase is very important.

It is true that letter names are not used in southern Europe where the fixed solfa system reigns but I think I am right in saying that letter names are used in northern Europe and certainly more widely around the world.
I have now taught both systems and my experience has been that the fixed solfa system is very much more difficult. To a child there is no logical sequence in a mere series of syllables and if you use fixed solfa you can't then use movable solfa. You can't use any of those so useful aids to memory such as Every Good Boy .....etc Sorry, I've gone a bit off topic.

With piano it's more efficient to be able to read by interval than by thinking note names all the time.
At the start it's about getting both going and I can see what people mean when they say note names aren't important to start with. With under 7s or even under 8s I begin with an off stave starter but do work on note names once we get onto the stave. I work on note naming alongside intervalic reading.
I think that if you don't work on note naming as well as interval/shape reading from the start it will be more difficult to add it later. A bit like the headteacher at my children's primary school who taught recorder by rote and letter names written over every note who defended this by saying that the interested ones would learn to read the music later.......... how many would really want to start again from the beginning?
I don't always push it too hard with adults, depending on their needs. I had one gentleman who soon learnt how to read by interval and understood enough about notation to be able to find his starting note. He didn't feel he had the need to instantly know note names as he was playing for his own pleasure and had time to work them out when he needed.

You can't use any of those so useful aids to memory such as Every Good Boy

I have to say I find these of very limited use - except perhaps as fall-back aides-memoire in a theory exam.
Pupils I inherit who have learnt them get confused in how to use them, more often than not, - I'd much rather put the keyboard "geography" in place first.

Yes, I only use them if absolutely necessary and never before we've learnt how the note go up the 'ladder' first.
I also only use the mnemonics for spaces... fewer things to remember and if you can name a 'space' note then the lines are easy to work out.

I only use the space note ones as well, I once had a little boy go into a practical G1 exam with a face drawn on his right hand and a cow on his left - and he STILL failed the sight reading.

I like that..... It helps if they know how to use it without help doesn't it?

Nice idea! Perhaps he forgot which way the cow was facing

I didn't mean use mnemonics for the actual teaching of reading the stave - just as a aid when needed. And I certainly have found that not having aids to memory of that kind is something my pupils miss out on.

I'm quite sure that children very quickly stop thinking names of notes in their heads as they play and if correctly directed will learn to read stepwise passages and intervals just as they learn to read words without being conscious of the names of the letters which make up the words.

I've experienced this a lot - have heard students saying under their breath "every good cow..." etc.

Yes, I've had pupils coming saying "every green cow drives fast" or "all good cows deserve" -they get in such a muddle. Even if they get them right, they often don't know if they refer to treble or bass, lines or spaces or whether they go up or down. And it's so unmusical - naming notes is not reading music.

I don't agree with the issue over 'animal names'. They make it very easy for the children to remember where the notes are on the keyboard, and they help very young children read the music. Since each animal name begins with the letter of the note it is not something that takes unlearning at all. It just requires a simple explanation when the child is ready, about the musical alphabet, something that is usually beyond a child of 5-6 years old.

Children learning using the Dogs and Birds method tend to avoid the playing by finger number syndrome as they are used to singing the note names (and it is not the fact that they are singing the note name that is important, rather that they are learning how each note and interval sounds by singing it) as they play.

Students are also easily able to find their way around the piano. I cannot recommend this book highly enough for young beginners.

I'm about to take on two new pupils in January, two girls aged 10/11. Any recommendations for beginner books for this age group? I've read through the posts and am going to try out some of the different recommendations for younger pupils having already used John Thompson and Pauline Hall. However, most of the ones recommended seem to be good for under 9s and I just wondered if they might be too young for these girls who are both very bright and switched on.

Have you tried searching for other threads on this topic? I often use Microjazz with this age-group, lending them book one as they get throug it so quickly. But there was another thread where this was discussed quite recently I think.

I find that Piano time 1 is fine for this age.

Students of this age have enjoyed Accelerated Piano Adventures, which moves rather more quickly than the regular PA... and also Fritz Emonts, European Piano Method, which move away from middle C pretty quickly - tho' it does still work in F 'position', etc. This has some very attractive repertoire, but needs supplementing for all but the very quick learner - usually those who've had some experience of another instrument.