I am an adult re-starting lessons on the violin. I have a 4/4 which is a nice enough instrument but I am pretty short (at just under 5ft) and have a short handspan (I can just about do a 9th on a piano.)

I find my shoulder hurts and my 4th finger after an half an hour or so of practise. My teacher, who is a very nice lady, says that I am out of practise and probably this is why it hurts. I respect her advice and sort of agree, except that a few years ago, when I was playing regularly, I ended up pulling out of a concert mid way through with a shoulder/lower back injury. I have only been with this teacher for a month (had 2 lessons.) so I don't know what I think.

I have considered a 7/8 in the past but when I suggested this to my teacher, she basically said that a 7/8 didn't have much power to them and that I should wait and see. She also mentioned that there would be a lack of instrument choice. Except this nagging voice in my head keeps saying I should try a 7/8. I have never tried one and since I am just playing for my own enjoyment, power isn't a major concern. Also with regard to instrument choice, I don't mind this because I won't want to change my violin that often anyway.

I don't reckon this voice is going away so I had a nosy at some 7/8. I can trial a 7/8 from the States for 2 weeks and return it if I am unhappy but if I return it I will have to be responsible for the shipping costs which would come to £55 if I decide to return it (as a student £55 is a lot). If I like it, I suppose I can made up for spending money I don't really have by selling my 4/4 (though if I could keep it I would like to for the time being.)

I am very confused and have nobody to talk this through with so I would respect any advice.

Hi there!

You should come and have a look round the 'Viva Strings' forum - lots of us stringy-folk hang around there.

I'm an adult who began violin just over a year and a bit ago. I bought a cheap 4/4 before finding a teacher who then told me my instrument was quite 'clunky' and heavy built although it sounded allright. My hands are quite small and it had a very thick neck so I was finding placing my fourth finger on the the lower two strings almost impossible.

I knew a 3/4 would be far too small so I started looking around for a 7/8 - there are not a lot of them about! My teacher had one but although I could play it much easier than the 4/4 it almost put me off because it was such a horrible sounding instrument. Then I had a 4/4 and a 7/8 sent to me to try. These were Romanian made violins and not hugely expensive. The 7/8 was again definitely easier for me to play; I could stretch across the strings and my fourth finger didn't hurt so much. But, my teacher did tell me my fourth finger would stretch with time and it probably hurt because I hadn't used it like this before.

However, I thought the 7/8 had a sweet sound, not quite as deep as the 4/4, but very pretty anyway so I bought it. It isn't hugely smaller than a 4/4 but just has a 'daintier' sized fingerboard. They became popular in the Victorian time as 'Ladies' violins' and some people collect them(!) just for the size. You still use a full-size bow and at a quick glance you can hardly tell the difference.

But over the last 11 months my fingers have become much more flexible and agile and I'm beginning to find my intonation is better on my father's 4/4 so I have finally decided to put my 7/8 up for sale (it's on ebay just now) and buy myself a 4/4 after all. I'm sure you could find a 7/8 in this country to try, so avoid shipping from the US, it might be a cheaper way of trying an instrument and you could always test it for size. Try looking on ebay or definitely at www.elidatrading.co.uk - their cheaper instruments are great quality for the price and perhaps they'll have something second-hand - worth emailing them to ask.

I don't regret buying the 7/8 but I am surprised how much my fingers can stretch now and how comfortable a 4/4 feels. A bit of me wishes I'd bought the 4/4 at the start so I wouldn't be changing instrument again right now (I now have to try to find myself a decent 4/4!).

Everybody reassured me that the 7/8 wouldn't sound 'smaller' than a 4/4 but to be perfectly honest, all the 7/8s I did try definitely did sound like a 'smaller' instrument with a thinner sound, although sweet. I played around with different strings too to build up the sound but it's still quite light-weight. It's probably a good ensemble instrument but a bit insubstantial for solo work - mine did get a bit lost playing beside a piano.

As a beginner myself I'm not qualified to give advice but IMHO I would go for a 4/4 if you can for tonal quality and strength. If you can have one made for you, you could ask for a slimmer neck like my teacher did with her custom-built viola. A 7/8 might make life easier for your fingers for a while but you may find if you work hard your fingers will strengthen and become flexible enough to manage ... but then again I'm six inches taller than you so probably have bigger hands. Maybe it depends on how long your fingers are; mine are quite short and my neighbour who is your height has longer fingers than me! I doubt very much that the difference between a 7/8 and a 4/4 would contribute to your back/shoulder problem; it's maybe something postural your new teacher can sort out for you.

Good luck - come to the 'Viva Strings' and let us know how you got on.

Hello, You must be the lady selling the GAMA. I already spotted that - asked where I could get a case for it because there wasn't one included - kicked myself when I re-read it and it said bow not included.

I can't afford a GAMA (or unfortuley yours - the numbers don't add up in my budget) so considering a GEMS 1 from same company that made yours.

At the moment I am doing a lot of solo work, no piano though I sometimes get accompanied by backing cds. And I love my 4/4 instrument (it not great but it better than the lump of tree which proceeded it) so I wouldn't want to sell it - which would make it easier if in the end I did decide to return to it.

At the end of the day, I feel like I have this itch I can't get at and which is slowly driving me loopy. You know I could spend the money of this trial and if I get an instrument I like and can work and which helps with some of my problems then it could be good thing. If I don't like it, I can return it and it would have cost me £55 to calm this itch.

I don't know I am very confused, maybe I should re-post this over "Viva Strings" see if I can get some more advice.

Hallo from another petite string player! I am also fractionally under five feet, and I have a Ladies' violin. Handspan-wise we must be fairly similar, as I can also (just!) stretch a ninth on the piano.

As far as your fourth finger is concerned, I think you will find this gets easier with time. I teach children who sometimes struggle with fourth fingers and it does improve - even if they haven't grown. I would suggest that you just keep using (but not over-using) it. Once it starts to hurt, it has done enough for that session!

Shoulder-wise, your problem may be due to your previous shoulder / lower back injury, but it would be wise to check that you have a good set-up (shoulder rest, chin rest etc all at optimum positioning for you) and your teacher should be able to help with this. It would be worth asking her to check that your posture is okay too. You might also find that it helps to split your practice sessions into two or more shorter sessions.

Having said that, I think that it would definitely be worth trying a 7/8 violin, but there must be some in the UK! I bought mine in Glasgow. I'm not sure where you are based, but anywhere in the UK is going to be cheaper than trying one from the States! You might perhaps try emailing as Lottie suggested, or advertising.

In terms of power, I would agree with your teacher, but I feel that the tone I get with my instrument is worth sacrificing a little power and, as you say, it is probably not an issue as you are playing for your own enjoyment. Even if you decided to join an ensemble / orchestra later on, it should be fine for those purposes. (I find that my violin is fine playing beside a piano.) You will not necessarily lose out on tonal quality. My 7/8 has a far superior tone to my previous 4/4, and was purchased as an upgrade.

It is important for you to have an instrument that you can play happily, and you will lose nothing by trying a 7/8 size - but may gain a more comfortable playing position.

Hope this helps a little - and good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Thank you, Where I am based (in North Wales), there isn't a violin shop nearby so hence I have been looking online.

My reasoning for mentioning the company in the States is that I spoke to a lady online (the company uses like a IM online feature so you can chat to staff) for about an hour and a half and she was able to answer all my questions.

Also as they show the actual instrument you are purchasing, I have been able to find 7/8 which the finish is lovely on. I am not a fan of violins which have a finish on them which makes them look slighty orange in certain lights.

As an aside do you use or can use a 4/4 case with a 7/8 and it be secure. The only downside with the company above is that their only 7/8 case is bright orange.

My handspan is much small than yours (can't quite reach an octave on the piano) and yet I now cope perfectly well with a 4/4. I had a 7/8 for a while because my hand flexibility was very poor because of a lack of technique and so on, a year on I haven't really grown, my hands are exactly the same size, but I can play a 4/4 without any problems.


Alexander technique? Sounds like there is a bigger problem than just violin size.


Which is exactly why I eventually conceded and got a 4/4 on my teacher's advice. I hadn't realised just how limited in tone and projection a 7/8 was until I got a 4/4. Knowing that there was that much more power available made me look for ways to find it on the 4/4 rather than using the instrument size as an excuse on the 7/8. I would strongly discourage you (or anyone who isn't exceptionally small) from getting a 7/8 if you plan to play to a serious level. Sure, some people really can't get around a 4/4 but if you can stretch a 9th already and are out of practice then you're a long way ahead of those sorts of people!
Consider options like having a 4/4's neck thinned down, and the overhang on the right shoulder minimised to make playing easier if necessary, that's what I had done.

My teacher also teaches the Alexander technique.

When I say I can do a ninth - that is if I am not actually playing and touch the very tips of the piano. I can do octaves in pieces, only if it just the octave (if there is a third note in the chord I have no chance.)

I am not trying to find excuses for needed a smaller instrument, I just am confused. To me, as along as I can play fairly decently, I'll be happy. Power, isn't a concern. Yes, I do want to do my Grade 8 one day, but that day is a long long long way off.

Also, I am only considering a trial, its not like I am going to buy it straight away and say to my teacher "this is my instrument, like it or lump it." I totally respect my teacher's advice. I just can't shake off this nagging voice in my head. I don't know what the difference in sound between a 7/8 and a 4/4 I have never heard a 7/8 in person. I have heard recordings though for example and to me that doesn't sound that bad.

There are.




The case size for 4/4 and 7/8 is exactly the same in my experience - but the 7/8 of this brand will usually fit in a 3/4 case of this brand.

Just one more thing - buying from the US is very advantageous at the moment because of the dire state of the dollar, but if the violin is actually being despatched from the US (as opposed to drop-shipped from Romania) , bear in mind that you will have to pay VAT and customs, plus a collection charge, on the total price including shipping. In our experience this equates to about an extra 21% in total. that said, sometimes if they come through the normal postal service they slip through customs and you have nothign to pay.

Liz

According to the company, the violin I'm looking at won't fit in a 3/4, that adds to confusion. Also it is shipped to me so it would avoid customs right?

That's possible - we have had 3/4 violins supplied in cases that will fit a 7/8 but to be fair the case sizes can vary. Or perhaps they just sent us a 7/8 case that time. Obviously if they say it won't fit a 3/4 case then it won't. You really shouldn't find a 4/4 case a problem, the neck strap secures it perfectly well. If the extra space worries you, just pad it out with a duster. Or just get used to the bright orange case - unless the range has expanded very recently it is, after all, only orange inside. To my eyes it's more of a rust colour than bright orange anyway.



Wrong - that is my point. The post office, or the carrier, has to take it through customs and will then charge what customs charge plus their own clearing fee. You're going to have to pay VAT plus customs on the whole cost including shipping, plus a clearing fee of (if I recall correctly) about £12, UNLESS the post office miss it (which is always possible) or it is drop-shipped direct from Romania. So do allow for that in your calculations - as well as allowing for the fact that you won't get the mid rate when you're effectively buying currency. At the present rate you'll probably get about 2 dollars to the pound.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

Liz

Yeah so basically you can stretch one note more than me, as I can reach a 7th over the keys and an 8ve round the side.


In which case do consider a 7/8 for a while at least. If you're playing just for fun, and maybe the odd concert for your own enjoyment and so on, it is of course much important to be completely comfortable with your instrument, and work on your hand flexibility on a smaller violin than to refuse to sacrifice full tone colour and projection of a 4/4 and take maybe a few months getting completely comfortable with it.


Recordings are not very useful in this case as they tend to equal out the main differences between 7/8 and 4/4 due to lack of quality and dynamic compression - if you could actually get to try a few that would be best.

I have small hands and very short chubby fingers but am playing a 4/4 violin. I don't know if this will help, but when I first started, I had a Skylark violin and I did struggle with 4th finger. My Skylark then decided to fall apart and I ended up buying a 1911 French violin. My new violin is smaller than the Skylark, much lighter and much easier to play. I was told that my Skylark was bigger than a traditional 4/4 hence my problems.

As for buying from the States - if I've remembered this right, anything over the value of $18 is subject to a customs charge. I've brought stuff from the States and I forgot about the customs charge and ended up with a whopping extra amount of money to pay so never again. I think the sender has to put the value of the goods on the package, so if it goes over the amount, you will get charged.

Hope this of some help.

Thanks everyone for their advice. I have, however, had to put any plans of trying out a 7/8 size aside as my car decided it wanted to play up.

The information which was provided about ordering from the States will prove very useful for my future reference. I don't have anything against UK retailers but there are several US companies I have become friendly with and would consider alongside the various UK ones.