Hello everybody!

Sorry if I am doing this wrong, but I am new to the forum - drawn to it by a google search re new cellos.
I have read the threads already posted and they are helpful, but have a couple more questions.

We are buying a first full-size cello for our son who is about to take grade 8 (grade 7 on a battered county 3/4, bless him!). He deserves something good and that will last him for a while if he gets really serious, or forever as a keenish amateur. We are lucky enough to be able to spend about 3-4k on it.

We originally thought that it had to be old European, but have been persuaded that a good new Chinese cello might be better.

We are currently trying out a "Yang Ming" said to be individually hand-made (3.5k) and another, team-built Chinese cello which seems comparable but is "only" 2.8k. As well as quite a lot of older instruments we have come across de Lille and J Haide (Sp?).

It is all a bit confusing. Is anyone familiar with Yang Ming? Is individually built worth extra money over team hand-built? Will these new Chinese cellos, admittedly impressive now, mature and maintain their value?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry I can't comment on one make over another but do let him try as many as you can get your hands on. You'll also need to remember that you may have to buy a bow and case separatly. Has his teacher made any suggestions and will he/she advise?

I can't answer regarding the particular cellos you mention - though I do know a professional cellist who likes the top of the range Jay Haide.

I can speak about the issue of maintaining value though. It's like this (this may be long)

There is a popular myth that stringed instruments automatically increase in value as they age. This is not true. It's certainly true that a 19th century cello will cost more now than it would have cost in the nineteenth century, but only in absolute terms. In other words, a lot of the appreciation in value is down to inflation and not a real terms increase in value. As an example, I have a Reinhold Schnabl viola which I purchased back in 1984 (when it was about six years old) for £1200. Today a new viola by that maker would cost £6000. But I would be very lucky to get more than half that for mine no matter how good its condition. So that's more than 20 years and in real terms my viola has decreased in value by about 50% - minimum.

In fact, the only way I could get a decent price for it at all would be to trade it in against something a lot better (something costing five figures) but then I could be sure that the dealer concerned was adding the profit he would lose by offering a high trade-in, onto the price of whatever I was buying new. Look at it from the dealer's perspective, unless the maker only makes instruments to order, and only for individual clients (which is certainly not the case with workshop instruments) the dealer could buy a new one (assuming the maker is still living) for a lot less than you could. And he won't be able to sell your used one for anywhere near as much as he could get for a new one.

Of course if you resell through a private source you can do better, but that can take a VERY long time. Liquidating a 3-4k Chinese cello on ebay, you would be very lucky, in my experience, to get bids even going into four figures.

So don't think of future value, except with the oldest and most sought after instruments you are going to make a loss whatever you do.

Liz

This may or may not be helpful but I had an old violin valued recently. The expert explained the value was not excessive due to it being made by an un-known maker. He conceded that it was a beautiful instrument with an incredible sound but 'unfortunately' this was not totally reflected in the valuation. We had it valued for insurance purposes; I know I'll never part with it for sentimental reasons and one day I will play it full-time (it's not mine yet and too valuable for me to play as a beginner), and doubt I'll ever need another instrument, so re-sale value is irrelevant to me - my heirs can sort that out eventually

I know people place a great deal of importance on value and 'investment potential' but I think the most important thing is playing something you're in love with. I will be buying an interim instrument soon and I may be wrong in terms of investment but I'll be judging my new violin on sound, comfort and compatability so may end up with one at the cheaper end of my budget.

(I've never heard a chinese violin that has as good a sound as a European one).

But I'm new to the world of strings so this is just my humble opinion.

Quite right. There is no simple relationship between value and sound.

Liz

I agree, you can pay a great deal for an old instrument and you will not necessarily end up with a better sound than a well made new instrument - certainly the sound will have settled, but you will be paying more for the age of it than you will for the sound - it might have settled into something rotten!

As for chinese instruments - the new handmade ones sound way better than European workshop instruments, simply because they're handmade by expert luthiers. I've played a Jay Haide one recently, which is a high end chinese instrument, to be fair it had been reworked by a French luthier, but it sounded astounding - probably the best sound I've ever heard out of a fiddle under 10k. The benchmade instruments that are coming out of China are even better. Think logically about it, where it is made has no impact on its quality - rather who it made by. If the maker is well trained and the set up is good, it will sound good and cost less than most similar European equivalents.

Don't rule out the Chinese option but do try to buy it locally and have good set up work done on it by a local luthier - support the local economy as it were.

I'm probably thinking of the 'old' reputation of cheap chinese instruments - it sounds like they are producing good stuff now...

Competition in China is fierce and of course that drives standards up. I have seen nothing on the market recently that is anywhere near as bad as the sort of rubbish I had to teach on 15 years ago. But Rosfrog is not talking about cheap Chinese instruments, the top of the range Jay Haide violin is around £800 over here (the RRP is £1200 or so)

Liz

Of course quality of sound is very subjective.
My recently purchased Chinese violin was chosen 90 % on sound quality after I failed miserably to find a European instrument old or new for a similar cost (or a couple of hundred pounds more) that came close to the ideal sound I had in my head.
I was convinced that only a European violin would offer the quality of sound I was looking for, I was wrong but am glad I was. I ended up with the right instrument for me, it just happens to be Chinese, it could just as well have been made by a little known family of goblin luthiers from just outside Eccles. it would make no difference.
Resale value will be better generally if you are starting with an old instrument, at least an older instrument will more or less maintian it's value. A new instrument is generally worth 50% of what you payed as soon as you take it out of the shop.



I'd certainly not rule out looking at a new quality Chinese workshop cello, if that's what I was looking to buy, then again I'd also try every single cello I could feasably get my hands on too, old new, European, Chinese, everything.

If you are very concerned about resale the best value will probably come from a carefully chosen used instrument, especially if you feel knowledgeable enought to buy from a private seller.

I think it more important that your son loves his new cello and thinks it right for him. A lot of choosing the right instrument is emotional not logical.

This article may help give you some useful information about Chinese cello-making: http://www.stringsmagazine.com/issues/strings113/china.html

When I started to search for a cello in a very similar price range last year I was convinced I wanted an old (ca. 100 yrs) European instrument, and definitely not a Chinese one. After visiting 3 shops and playing on many cellos I did change my mind though. Yes, I did play on some old European ones that were better, but you would be looking at about 7 K upwards. In the 3 to 4 K market the Chinese have gained the upper hand is what I was told, and reluctantly I had to admit that this is so, especially after having my teacher's opinion on the 2 cellos I had narrowed it down to, an old German one and a brand new Chinese.

In the end I bought a Jay Haide and I love it (I agree with what the others say, you have to have an emotional connection with the cello you purchase). It has a beautiful sound and it looks old too. You may think you are not into the 'fake old' look, but they do it so well that it is hard to dislike. I could certainly recommend them, they are good enough for most amateurs to never need a 'better' instrument.

As for resale value, I am never going to sell mine! I guess it will not appreciate in value like a Stradivarius, but it will always be too good to sell off on eBay. I reckon I would get a reasonable amount of money for it if I sold it on privately to a fellow amateur cellist. I agree with Liz, that process can take some time - depends on how many cellists you know!

Thank you everybody. This is really useful and thoughtful feedback.




I think I meant advice, not feedback, but the point is I am touched and impressed by the generosity of this community which I am lucky enough to have stumbled across (after 40 yrs of violin-playing!).

What does "benchmade" mean (probably something to do with being made on a bench, but could you explain more)?

Benchmade is the term used by luthiers to describe a real handmade instrument. Most 'handmade instruments' these days (gliga, lower end chinese etc) are made in workshops by several people - a benchmade instrument is one that has been made from start to finish by the same luthier. Benchmade are better quality instruments if made by a well trained maker and, as they have a traceable pedigree linked to one luthier (rather than a factory) they tend to keep their resale value better, or even appreciate.

That said, as has been pointed out, you should buy a cello that will do what you want it to do rather than one you're already thinking of reselling (instruments generally make pretty rubbish investments anyway, as Liz has already pointed out) in which case a factory made instrument which is made by hand to strict controls will give you better value for money.

Just try as many as you can within your price range and don't worry about which one is 'supposed' to be best, pick the one that you love (or the one that you love the sound of your teacher playing on, if you don't have a high level yet).

Allan

It's funny how sellers of even the very cheapest instruments proclaim loudly that their instrument is handmade and (at least in the case of violins and violas) made of solid wood. Perhaps there was a time when factory instruments were not handmade, but I'm finding it hard to imagine how else they would ever have been made? And it's hard to find a violin or viola these days that isn't made of solid wood (the lowest price Jinyin isn't, as I recall, and there is one German made one that isn't, but I don't know of any others).

Liz