hey everyone,

i'm 16 years old, and i have very very small hands, like a child's, and my pinky is extremely small! it's only about 4.5 cm!

i find that:
1.) it's very difficult for me to do the vibrato, especially on the 3rd and 4th finger.
2.) i think that the spaces between the strings on my current violin are a bit wide apart. is it supposed to be like that? how far are the strings supposed to be actually?

i was wondering whether the causes of these problems are because my violin being too big, or is it my technique problem?


if i use a smaller violin, such as the guaneri violins, or 7/8 violins, would it sound and play better than my stradivari/standard 4/4 size violin?

i am really frustrated and i dont know what to do!!!

please please please do answer my questions above, all your help is truly and greatly appreciated........


p.s. it would be of great help and easier if you guys can email me your replies... you can send your replies to richnpretty@hotmail.com
thanks so much!!!!!

Hi there,

AmandaL, one of the pro violinists who posts on here, apparently has very small hands indeed and yet she plays on a 4/4 without any problems - perhaps you need to be creative? If you can't do vibrato well on a fourth finger note, what about creative fingering? Play it with a different finger and vibrate that one instead?

As for your second question - it's entirely impossible to answer! We don't know anything about your current violin or the 7/8 ones you're talking about - every single violin will have a different voice and so many factors come into play to determine this that the question is like asking 'is a blue car better than a red one?'

If the question were 'will a 7/8 play better than a 4/4 of identical quality' then no, it won't - there will be a slight loss in power and projection - but perhaps that might be worth putting up with if it makes you able to play more comfortably...

Ask for your teacher's advice and try some creative fingering if there's no way round it. You may be surprised at how many solutions in set up may be available too (central chin rests, playing with / without shoulder rest, neck thining etc.) - I'm sure there's a solution for you.

Good luck!

Hello! I'm also 16 and having just measured my pinky (), mine is also 4.5 cms.

Regular practice will really help to strengthen your 3rd and 4th fingers.

I use a 4/4 violin and used to have similar problems, but I'm not a teacher and I don't know you...Perhaps you could ask your teacher for their opinion?

What does your teacher say?

But I think as Miss Ross says, it is all a matter of practice. And it is not just a matter of finger length but flexibility (and possibly hand position). I started the violin as an adult and for a long time felt my pinky was too short and could barely reach B on the E string (if my first finger was on the F#), and certainly couldn't double stop an octave in first position. Like you I wondered about a 7/8 violin. But with time and practice I developed strength and reach - now I can stretch F#-C# and can 'creep' between first and second position without having to do an actual shift. I can also double-stop a minor 9th perfectly comfortably with stretch to spare!

I found that on the piano I could play previously impossible 9ths in my left hand with ease (causing some atonal mistakes at first !), and my LH stretch remains greater than my RH though originally it was less.

Vibrato is also hard on the weaker fingers but will develop in time.

Do be guided by your teacher, though, and don't set out on strenuous exercises by yourself, in case you cause an injury.

Similarly, I have a pinky which is only 4.5 cm, very small hands (probably the size of an average 10 or 11 year old child), but incredible flexibility in the fingers without hyperflexing (double-jointed).

The most important joints of the left hand for stretching the fingers are the knuckle joints. A good stretch is not just in the distances the tips of the fingers can move apart, but being able to open the knuckle joints as well will provide additional stretch. It will however, take time. Do not expect it to happen in a few days or even weeks. It will take months of quite hard work. Be patient, but ensure that you practice daily to optimise the stretching process, muscle development and forming the correct neural connections between brain and hands. Your hands, much like a dancers body, need to be exercised and worked every day.

Trills and vibrato with the little finger are possible but will also take time to develop. Persistence will pay off in the long run.

Talk things through with your teacher regarding the size of the violin you are playing. It may be that the body of the violin is a little too long for you, or that the shoulders of the instrument are a bit on the wide side and restrict your hand in the higher positions. The term 7/8 can vary enormously, from instruments with a body length of just 340 mm, right up to 347 mm. Anything over this will be regarded as full-size (4/4), but it's perfectly possible to get a 350 mm backed violin with a tone that's as full as that of a 355 mm violin. Indeed, my own (English) violin has a 350 mm back and certainly doesn't lack in volume or tone.

My teacher has tiny hands, short fingers and plays viola! It can be done.

(Shan't say any more as my pinky is 6cm..... )

Where are you all measuring your pinkies from? The web of skin between pinky and 3rd? Presumably not the base knuckle!

Central measurement of the pinkie from the palm-side of the hand, ie. from the crease line to the end of the finger.

If I measure from the knuckle on the back of my hand, the pinkie is 6.5 cm.

Oh, I see. About 5.7 cm here. Elisabeth is clearly born to play the viola!

Seem to be! I was once told I had pianists' fingers! I just used AmandaL's criteria and it's 6.3cm. Longer than a bloke's??

Much longer than this bloke's, and I'm 6 feet tall!

Well, there you go! Don't we come in all different shapes and sizes!!!

wow. thanks so much for the info!!! you guys are awesome!!

if i want to make my fingers stronger for vibrato, what should i do? how should i practise?

I don't think the quality of the sound would be affected if you bought a good quality smaller instrument. My daughter used to play on a 3/4 size 19 century German violin and the sound was truly lovely. In fact she has yet to find a full size to measure up to it, which is way she is still playing on a loaned violin.
I think these smaller violins used to be called 'ladies violins'.

Violinma

Mine's 6.4

Liz

Two key objectives in developing the right muscles in the right way:

A good hand shape and position, with the fingers nicely rounded over the strings. Do not let fingers 'stargaze' when they are not in use, ie. point upwards towards the ceiling, or worse still, backwards towards the scroll of the instrument.

Do not play flat-fingered. Apart from looking asthetically unpleasing, it will seriously restrict your hand and the stretch of your fingers. Ensure your fingernails are short enough to allow you to place the finger tips on the strings. Do not let the finger joints collapse flat either. Some people have a tendancy to collapse the finger joint(s) in order to correct their intonation. This is a very bad habit to get into. Intonation should be corrected by keeping the hand and finger shape and moving the finger tip itself.

Sevcik Opus 1 Part 1, exercises 1 to 4 and number 6 would provide a starting point. The exercises require you to repeat each bar several times, eveness and repetition of intonation is your primary goal, and a good hand position will be of enormous help in achieving that goal. The exercises exploit various finger spacings and stretches, some of which may, to begin with, feel a little uncomfortable, so do be careful to limit the time you spend doing the exercises until your fingers stretch and strengthen. The idea is that you repeat the same exercises on all four strings, not just the one the music is printed for in the book! Persevere, it will pay off in the long run...

Mine's around 5.7cm. I have actually been considering switching to a 7/8th sized instrument because I found out I can't do 10ths on my 4/4. =p. The body's 352mm long.

I just wonder though, how much help can thinning the width of the neck be? How much thinning can be done? That is another thing I'm considering. How much does it normally cost?

Oh....thank you for this! When I upgraded my violin a few years ago, my tutor played it and commented that it was small, so I assumed it must be a 7/8 violin. But the back measures up as 355mm. However, it is very old, and has had various modifications at some stage (new neck, body deepened etc) so perhaps the "new" neck (I don't know how old this bit is) is still a little shorter than standard. It will be good to have these measurements to hand for future reference - many thanks!

Tenths is ridiculous. I can't do tenths and can't imagine how one could possibly do so without causing oneself serious injury, and I have large hands for a woman.

Liz

Mine's 5.1 from crease... and I play the cello

I know of at least two female students at the Royal conservatoires in London that can manage tenths and I wouldn't say they have huge hands. I think it's more about technique than anything else, plus the amoutn of practice they do and have done since they were very young. However, stretching a tenth may also be one of the reasons why not many women are able to play all 24 Caprices by Paganini.....unison notes in first position (for example an E on the D string with a unison E on the G string) are probably even more difficult to play physically, than a tenth.

Does any Sarasate piece require stretching tenths? My dream is to be able to play Romanza Andaluza, Carmen Fantasy, Zapateado and Habanera one day light years from now. What about Mozart?

My dream too.....

Sounds like torture pure and simple. I don't recall ever trying a unison like that but I can do a tenth, just. However it hurts, and the prospect of doing scales that way (which is required by some ghastly syllabus somewhere) is seriously unattractive. I recall doing some orchestral work or other on viola (and only a 15.5 inch) where we had to have an interval of a minor ninth I think, for bar after bar after bar. It was most unpleasant. Perhaps it's just a matter of muscle training or something. I'm sure I'm never going to find out.

Liz

Do any scales require you to play tenths? What happens during exams for those who can't physically play tenths? =p

Lots and lots of Chinese or Japanese women play violins that are 7/8, or even just smallish for a 4/4.

Son Viohazard is 13, and his little finger is over 6.5cm....but so's mine - Liz and Elisabeth are not alone!

I do think it's probably as much about stretch as actual dimensions though, because I'm sure Viohazard can stretch his handspan further than I can...and my LH handspan is a good centimetre shorter than my RH span, thanks to an injury that is 40 years old and completely healed, but which obviously still makes a difference.

So keep up the practice!

Beginner here, what's a tenth??

Hi Elizabeth,

It's an interval between two notes, like a third or a fifth. On the viola for example, if you played D on the C string and at the same time played an e on the G string, you would be playing a tenth.

Allan

F, surely, unless my theory has degenerated to an even greater degree than I thought it had!

You're quite right, Liz! For some reason, because I said C string, I was operating from the C, but obviously I meant from D, so D to F it is.


Clearly need to get the viola out again to get used to the C string...

I tried playing octaves today (starting on D string) in the Grade 6-8 scale book and I found I could manage them. I'm not sure about the G and D string ones. I imagine they'd be alot harder and a little more painful! =) I emailed a luthier the other day and he told me to bring my violin in to let him have a look. I asked him if I could thin the neck down a little and enquired about playing tenths. He said playing tenths don't occur too often and as long as you can play octaves, that's good enough.

So I tried octaves (even though my teacher hasn't let me go near them yet!) tonight and I can play them!! Wheeee! So happy. Hopefully my fingers will stretch better and be more flexible!

was pleasantly amused when i read about pple measuring their pinkies.. mine's 6cm from the crease.. quite short is it? but i dun remember finding it hard to stretch to any note.. hmm..

i think ive got a huge palm.. so how shld we go about measuring palms?? haha..

This thread started me wondering whether my shortish pinky (5.7 cm) is going to prevent me becoming the top-flight professional viola player that I would undoubtedly have otherwise become. But actually I don't have that much trouble reaching, say, a G on the C string, even though my viola is pretty big. The problem is to co-ordinate my pinky with my relatively long third finger - the pinky needs to be flat while the third is quite arched, and getting them to line up together is quite awkward. I'm sure I'll get the hang of this, but I think it would be easier if either the pinky were longer or the other three were shorter. So don't despair if your fingers are short!

My pinkie measured from the crease is 6.2cm. As I posted earlier, when I first played the violin it was a stretch to reach a B on the E string, and I couldn't do octave double stops. Now I can play 9ths comfortably - it had never occurred to me to try 10ths but I can play a minor 10th if I put the 4th finger down first and then extend back. I can do unison notes in first position (for example an E on the D string with a unison E on the G string) more easily.

I started playing in my early thirties and would never have believed that I could develop such a stretch. However, I somehow think that I still won't be playing the Paganini Caprices....

I think I must have developed some stretchability over several years of playing the piano, even though I didn't start that until I was about 45. I had no trouble reaching an E on the A string (with 1st on the B) when I started the viola. In fact I'm sharp with the 4th finger as often I am flat!