i want to start learning to play violin so i have to decide which one to buy. I've heard its better to go in a store and hear it before you buy it but even if i went i wouldn't know what to listen for so i've been looking on the internet.

Here are the ones im considering

http://www.kennedyviolins.com/Bunnel_gallery.html

and

http://www.violinslover.com/OutfitIn.php?I=A8332

would either of these be a good choice?

I don't like the look of the Bunnel one, nor do I like their ad (it's called publicité mensongère here in France - where you deliberately tell lies to sell something) - Most student violins do NOT have solid steel strings and, to be honest, wound steel strings aren't likely to do much to improve the tone of a cheap student instrument in any case so their selling point is not such a good one.

I'd say go for the gliga genial - it will be excellent value for the money (if you can make the push to a gems, do so, you won't regret it in the long run). It will be a nice little fiddle for the money.

Enjoy your new violin!

Allan

Hi mikej, and congratulations on your wise decision to learn the violin. (The viola would have been wiser still, but maybe that will come later.) I would strongly advise you to search for "gliga" in this forum and see if that suggests any ideas.

Seconded. I would add that I know those hard cases and they really are pretty horrible. Also "kiln dried" wood is pretty much rock bottom. If you get the Genial, get Dominant strings fitted if you can run to it, it will sound far better and be easier to play.

Liz

Also, when your Gliga arrives you may need to take it to a luthier to get some work done on it as they do tend to arrive with rather high bridges. A couple of my more experienced pupils who've bought Gligas have had to get them tweak them a bit to make them more easily playable. They look beautiful for sure, but as with everything in life, you get what you pay for!

Actually don't get me wrong, they're nice violins but at the end of the day, they're not Stradivariuses - some of them can be a bit heavy (weightwise), and some of them are better than others tonewise, so make sure you get two or three sent to you so you can pick the one you like the best. You'll also probably need to get a better bow than the ones they come with.

I agree with you here - the set up that comes on the gliga is not really very good the bridges are too high, and frequently way too soft, and they can be very clunky instruments - but once set up they make a nice forgiving sound which is ideal for amateur players who want an instrument that will sound sweet and forgiving even with low technique levels (my own luthier says that they'd make better furniture makers than violin makers, but also says that the dark sound that comes from the arches being too curved and tight is frequently sought out by amateur players. He thinks they are ideal basic instruments but also says that they aren't capable of great tonal expression when compared to a good violin.)

I used to sell Gliga here in France, but simply had to stop because France is purely luthier-run where stringed instruments are concerned and people who were buying them were sending them back because they had taken them to have them checked out at the local luthier's and were being told the set up was nowhere near the standards expected and they were being quoted hundreds to put it right. I had only one choice, to start having them all set up professionally before sale - this made the sale price as high as a good chinese instrument though, and quite frankly the Gligas couldn't compete with them as they had lost their advantage - price. Sadly, I had to say goodbye to them. I think the French just have a taste for typical Mirecourt, brilliant sounds and have come to expect that from every violin they buy (at the same time, brands such as stentor simply don't exist here - a 4/4 student fiddle is going to cost you at LEAST 800 euro where I live, and that's for something that's considered only just suitable - most people would spend at least a thousand or two - there isn't really a cheap instrument culture - probably because of the luthier stranglehold on the market - but still I'd rather have local trade as not)

Even so, whilst I've come to see the downside on Gliga, when you look what a genial or gems costs from Liz, compared to things like Stentor etc, the Gligas really win out. I think that's their principal strength for me - the lower end fiddles don't cost much and sound better than similarly priced alternatives.

Allan

This is interesting. The very most we can pay for a top level professional setup is £250. We can't get it any higher than that whatever we have done - that includes new pegs and tailpiece, top quality professional bridge, top quality soundpost, as well as shooting the fingerboard. But of course if luthiers have plenty of work it is understandable that they will charge a lot for working on someone else's violin, especially if they perceive themselves to have lost a sale.



Showing lack of knowledge now - I hadn't realised the French sound was bright. Certainly the Chinese make them bright so if the French like them bright then that would seem to be a match made in heaven. Over here we find that hardly anyone likes them bright - aspiring professional players, perhaps, but they are invariably looking in a much higher price bracket. Interestingly, we found the Strad model Gliga impossible to sell with the top level set up. It's just far too bright for most people's taste (unless we just got a duff one - perhaps we'll try it again sometime because interestingly the Italian model, which is brighter than the Strad model, sounds a lot better even with that "brightening" set up). The guarneri model treated to the same set-up comes out a little brighter than the "from the workshop" strad model, and a lot louder and more resonant, but we are in the early days with that. So far it looks promising.




That's an awful lot for a beginner - more than a good student flute for example. Is hiring a popular option?

Incidentally we have sold some violins to France - a handful of cheap Chinese ones and a few Gligas. They've all been well received, but of course I've no idea what they are being compared to (and even less idea now that you say cheap violins aren't available over there!)

Liz

if i get the gliga do i have to get it set up by a luthier? and how much will that cost (in USD if you know)? Money is an issue

should i get the guarneri or the strad? what are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

I'd say no, but then to be fair I am known for liking a higher bridge than many players. We get ours with lower bridges as standard now (this is not a suggestion that you buy from us, since you are in the US you will get a better price from the US dealer). Cristian is a luthier in his own right and should respond to a request for one with a lower bridge if you ask him. Note that the same thing applies to virtually any new violin you will buy unless you buy it from somewhere that has adjusted it - and the US phrase "adjusted to MENC specifications" doesn't seem to mean much, the bridges are still higher than many players like them, in my experience. You see, the bottom line is that it's cheaper to cut a bridge down than to fit a new one and so makers put on the highest bridge that is likely to be needed. Or so Gliga told me.


The strad. The guarneri is rather a specialist taste - it's VERY dark, rather like a viola.

Liz

I've been using the same luthier for almost three years so we have an excellent relationship and as I was taking him these fiddles in batches of ten, he was discounting his work for me - I honestly do think that the French make no distinction between basic student fiddle and masterwork fiddle - believing that both need to be given the top set up. The set up bill was coming to around 400 euro in total, which is more or less the same as what you've quoted - but that made the price of the fiddle far less interesting for the customer. In some cases, the bill was higher because the fiddles were so clunky inside that, when the thicknesses were tested, they were as high as 4,5 when they shouldn't be much over three in the arch area - so two of the fiddles had to be taken apart and reworked inside - mind you the difference in sound was impressive.



The culture difference comes into play here. There are very few players who just play for fun. Most people who take lessons do so at a music school or at a conservatoire, rather than with private teachers. Many of these schools do not accept adult students and all the children are being trained to be at professional standard (not all of them reach it, mind you, many drop out) so the amateur, dark and forgiving, lower end fiddle doesn't really have much of a place - more's the pity. We need to bear in mind, too, that the French approach says that a good player can make a bright instrument sound dark with position changing and warm vibrato, but cannot make a fundamentally dark and muffled instrument sound bright. Teachers want their students to have instruments that are decent enough for orchestra and solo playing and therefore the idea of a dark, or cheap instrument is much frowned upon. Hopefully that will change as more adults learn things for fun, but the French culture still holds that you choose a job at 18 and you don't change and you don't learn things for fun. Shame.



Well, the thing is - culturally, it's unlikely that someone getting a 4/4 fiddle is going to be a beginner - more likely an advancing student. Hiring of 4/4 instruments isn't very popular at all, but fractional sizes are (my luthier has three full size for rent, but fifty half size) - once people get to 4/4 they generally buy and even a student instrument costs around 800 as a start - anything less just doesn't really exist. And of course, when I say that cheap fiddles don't exist here - that's not strictly true - you can get them on the net, but teachers will simply tell you to send them back and most luthiers will refuse to work on something that you purchased online, because they say it's killing local trade. I can see their point, but I personally think there's a place for both - it works fine in England!

I do appreciate the higher quality of instruments here - it's nice that in our local session all the fiddles are really good quality and sound great - it's nice too that even amateur orchestras (of which there are not many either) sound really professional (most require conservatoire diplomas - a little higher than G8, for entry) because they're all playing on very nice instruments - but I do wish there was a little more flexibility where the arts are concerned at times!

Allan

Who'd have thought that a small stretch of water would make such a huge difference!

Still, one good thing comes out of it I suppose - it doesn't sound as if there is much likelihood of a pupil turning up with a violin purchased from a bookshop! The concept of being able to tell a pupil to take a violin back and spend ten times as much is quite mindblowing!

Liz

If you know a violinist, and can get to a specialist violin store, it's worth doing that. What you hear under ear is very different from what an 'audience' hears. My friend and I played all the violins on offer within my price range. I ended up choosing (based on initial sound and feel) 6 violins that I took home with me for two weeks - narrowing it down to two (which I then had for a further 2 weeks!) before finally settling on the one I currently play.

Good luck!