A few weeks ago my daughter learnt to play in upper second position in the cello and for the first time she is playing really in tune. I wondered if this is a more comfortable position to be in (she had previously played only in 1st and 4th positions) (does it perhaps correspond to a more natural spread of the fingers?) and if other people had noticed the same thing.

It is! It's far more comfortable than 1st position! No question!

Hahah. Personally, I'd prefer to play massively high up the cello than in 1st position. It's much more natural. Yes - possibly because of the angle of fingers, combined with the angle of the arm. Everything is just much nicer.

Is upper second position first finger on F on the A-string, incidentally? I'm not familiar with using these terms.

This is where I am clearly not a cellist and, although my daughter knows, I'm a bit hazy about what the first finger plays. The term comes from Rick Mooney's book Position Pieces and you find upper second position by putting your second finger where your fourth finger would have been in first position and checking with an open string, so for example, your second finger on a G on the D string (I think this makes the first finger F# but would have to go downstairs and get the book and check).

Not only does she play in tune in this position but she also seems to be able to shift up to it and be spot on first time. This is not the case when she shifts to 4th position (which to me seemed easier as you have the back of the cello to know where to stop) - the mysteries of other people's instruments.

Ah - okay. I'd be more used to calling it second position than upper second position, I suppose - but what's in a name?
Interesting that she finds that easier than 4th position - but I still agree than anything is easier than first position (except half position...!)
I think it does have something to do with finger angle - and possibly personal oddities, too!!

It is called upper second position because the first finger is on C sharp on the A string. It would be lower second position if the first finger was on C natural. So, if you think alphabetically, the position is named according to the placing of the first finger on a string, related to where it would be in first position. So, on the A string, 1st position = 1st finger on B, lower 2nd position= 1st finger on C, upper second position = first finger on C sharp, lower 3rd position = 1st finger on D, upper third position = 1st finger on D sharp etc. etc.
And, of course, upper third position (D#)is the same as lower 4th (Eb) because the first finger is in the same place! Sounds complicated but is straightforward really.

The higher up the strings you play, of course, the closer the intervals so mostly the stretches are easier for the fingers.

When my son also started playing from this book a few years back, I also wondered what they meant by "upper second position" - until I actually sat down and played it myself, but I'd never heard that expression before either.
They are quite good books though, we also used the double stopping book

Don't worry about being hazy - I've been playing for 3 years and I'm decidedly hazy about positions. My cello teacher tears her hair out when she asks me what position I'm playing in and I say I don't know, but the note I want is "about there." My eyes are glazing over already with cellophile's descriptions. Teacher insists that I need to know, but I can't get my head round it. As to one position being more comfortable than another, I've never had a problem with first position (I know where that is!). I know where fourth position is too (though I'm never sure of its number) - that's the one in the neck of the cello, and definitely easier to find than the ones in between. The higher positions I find much more tricky, as it's more difficult to judge the exact spot when the fingers are closer together.

I have the book "Taylor Made Pieces for Cello Positions" which I have found difficult and with very contrived pieces, so haven't used it much - I prefer to learn on real music. Not knowing what the positions are doesn't to have affected what I can play.

I do remember confusing a violinist friend immensely because she didn't have a clue about upper and lower second (and third) positions. And the fact that my teacher never used 'lower', he'd refer to 2nd position and upper 2nd position...I had the Taylor Made book as well

Not a cellist anymore but I can still remember the positions up to 4...if you're on the A-string then your first finger gives you:

1/2 position - A#/Bb
1st - B
(Lower) 2nd - C
Upper 2nd - C#
(Lower) 3rd - D
Upper 3rd - D#
4th - E

But then of course you can do backward and forward extensions to all of these and then your head explodes!

Thanks Maizie - I get the general idea, but matching a finger to a note name is a problem.

:nod nod nod:
I was OK for some of it until enharmonic equivalents got used. I could cope with B-flat and C-sharp; but ask me for A-sharp or D-flat and I was befuddled

I have to visualise the keyboard first for the more unfamiliar notes, so this doesn't present so much of a problem, though it does require a longer time for thought! How did you find scales and arpeggios in the keys with more flats?

[/quote]Teacher insists that I need to know, but I can't get my head round it.

I have the book "Taylor Made Pieces for Cello Positions" which I have found difficult and with very contrived pieces, so haven't used it much - I prefer to learn on real music. Not knowing what the positions are doesn't to have affected what I can play.
[/quote]

Sorry to be a spoilsport perhaps, but my teacher also insisted that I need to know, and having ploughed through the entire 'Taylor Made' book at some point I must say I do agree with her. Some of the pieces may look contrived, but they are written as teaching aids for a specific purpose, not to be musical masterpieces. It is useful to have a good knowledge of exactly which notes are within reach (and under which finger) when you put your first finger on any given note. Comes in especially handy in orchestral playing when you may not have the time to work it all out slowly, more so when there are a fair number of flats or sharps in the signature key and you are working in extended positions much of the time.

[quote name='immy' date='Dec 28 2007, 10:36 AM' post='648361']
[/quote]Teacher insists that I need to know, but I can't get my head round it.

I have the book "Taylor Made Pieces for Cello Positions" which I have found difficult and with very contrived pieces, so haven't used it much - I prefer to learn on real music. Not knowing what the positions are doesn't to have affected what I can play.
[/quote]

Sorry to be a spoilsport perhaps, but my teacher also insisted that I need to know, and having ploughed through the entire 'Taylor Made' book at some point I must say I do agree with her. Some of the pieces may look contrived, but they are written as teaching aids for a specific purpose, not to be musical masterpieces. It is useful to have a good knowledge of exactly which notes are within reach (and under which finger) when you put your first finger on any given note. Comes in especially handy in orchestral playing when you may not have the time to work it all out slowly, more so when there are a fair number of flats or sharps in the signature key and you are working in extended positions much of the time.
[/quote]

I do see the point of doing these exercises, but I find this particular book very difficult. I got it out again after replying on this thread, and found that I can get through the first piece, German Dance, but not very fast and definitely not musically. The second piece, Creep Past, takes me ages to just work out the notes, with frequent reference to the diagram on the opposite page, and with fingering written in. I feel that I need a lot more easier pieces to work on before tackling the ones in this book - think I might compose some, which would probably help the understanding anyway

Off topic - is there something wrong with the Quote facility today, as this hasn't come out as it should do, and it looks as if you had the same problem, immy.

my cello teach was a proffesional, and she never said anthing of upper positions, only
Half
First
Second
Fourth
using the first finger as the anchor, then extending back as necessary, so you always are in one position.... no uppers / lowers

Yes - mine doesn't differentiate between the two, but the book does.

I think in practice most cellists won't be consciously thinking about whether they are e.g. in upper or lower second position, so perhaps that is why some teachers don't mention it. I guess in the end it's not so interesting what it is called, as long as you have your hand in the right position for the music you are about to play. For instance if you are playing a passage in a piece with 4 flats you may want to have your first finger on F natural (on the D string) so A flat and D flat are nicely under your fourth finger. It's just a matter of learning the geography of the fingerboard. Some people will be able to do that instinctively without giving anything a fancy name. I wish I could !