My 15-year-old niece was so proud this Christmas. She passed her grade 5 theory with 66 marks. She was so pleased. I didn't think it right to tell her that I scored a fair bit more than her when I sat the exam. I didn't want to crush her pride. What it is to be an aunt.

Quite right, never steal someone elses thunder however much it grates the soul, especially a childs success, it would be a hollow victory...thankfully as adults we can live with knowledge that we did well...to a child its not only the success but the acknowledgement of their success...you acted most wisely and kindly...well done you

Andrew

15 is a delicate age, as adults we often say things on passing but a 15 year old can remember these things for a lifetime. They need as much encouragement as they can get. Well done, its the best christmas gift you could have given her.

You did a great thing You're all so nice and considerate! We live in a competitive society, if it was an adult I probably would have forgotten to be considerate and blab out my score and tell them I did better (I would be careful around a child). I'm terrible Thanks for reminding me how to be a good person

I can't believe that a family member would even consider boasting to a younger member of the family that they got higher marks let alone mention that fact publically. That is sick and sad. Like it's a competition or something. None of my family or friends families would even dream of doing that even if they'd got a distinction or something. I'm quite astounded actually.

Mike I think you may have slightly got the wrong end of the stick...the OP wasn't being smug, not in the least...sometimes adults have to roll their eyes metaphorically when young people boast and brag...its not done with any sense of competition just a reminder of who we all used to be one way or another when we were young...memories of youth are for most all we have then everything gets serious and responsibilties creep in so we need a laugh at ourselves and the younger generation from time to time...it's what keeps us sane...this is not in any way posted from an argumentative standpoint but as the way I read the original post...no harm done just an inward smile of days gone by....

Kindest regards

Andrew

for what its worth I was a thoroughly nauseating child...in many ways I still am, pretentious, a bit of a luvvie and in all respects utterly selfish...living alone allows me that luxury...but I can still have a smile when I remember how I used to be or even when I mess up now...

Oh, have I? I apologise then. Maybe I read it wrong. Just sounded a bit strange that's all. Maybe when or if I have grandchildren I shall remember or realise what you mean. Sorry.

No need to apologise that was very nice of you but quite unecessary...

Regards

Andrew

One good thing about being an adult is that you know exactly what it's like to be a teenager, but when you're a teenager, you don't know what it's like to be an adult with all the baggage and responsibilities that go with it.

I know when I was at school I was deperate to leave, grow up and be at work - I thought it just had to be better than being a child. It turned out the grass was no greener on the other side and the millstones around ones neck increase dramatically, but I just couldn't have been aware of or even appreciated that in my teenage years.

When teenagers say to me that they think adults are boring, I just remind them that as the years pass a little more wisdom creeps in. Learning by making mistakes doesn't always work, because they are apt to come at you from different angles, or, your character just tends to lead you into the same trap over and over. Sure I still do some totally whacky things, that's just me and inwardly we are all still children - even if the outer shell doesn't make us look it - but I do tend to stop and think a little more before I jump in with both feet these days.

To be quite honest I thought it a bit strange to draw attention to the fact that the OP didn't crush the spirit of his/her young niece. Surely it goes without saying that we keep quiet at times like that?

I think that was Mikeyc's feeling too! And mine!

maybe the OP isn't that much older than the niece? maybe the niece was insufferable, acting like she was a genius? maybe the OP really is bumptious ? maybe this was a breakthrough in the social skills of the OP and s/he needs support?

One of the hardest things about being an adult learner is exactly the situation that BB has encountered in her first post. It's a situation that Violinia, MikeyC and Loops all can't imagine, as they aren't in that situation.

It isn't that one's younger relative's achievements aren't worth celebrating. But it is sometimes hard to hear such achievements gaining acclaim when one's own efforts aren't appreciated as much simply because one was an adult when one started learning.

That's the whole point of this forum. For those of us who didn't get the opportunity to learn music as children to celebrate our hard work and achievements without having to tell precocious little dears how well they've done - even though we've done better but not got acknowledgement for it. We can grit our teeth and pat the kiddies' heads in the real world, but leave us our space here to share our own triumphs.

I also felt that way when I first read the original post. The OP was right not her mention her results, but really I'd be very shocked if I thought anyone would do such a thing!

I think the truth is that no matter how hard adult learners may work, a much younger child at the same standard, in the eyes of many, appears to have acheived more, even if they have been playing for the same length of time.

Hey - am I to be typed as some kind of emotional retard for stopping blurting out my grade 5 theory mark to my niece? Have you never bitten your tongue to stop yourself saying something untoward? Aren't you reading a bit much into the situation? As to why I should comment on the matter, whyever not? This is a forum for adults. Surely there's room for some discussion about how you deal with teenage musicians.

As for the assumption that my niece being was insufferable, acting like she was a genius - really. Why make that assumption about a girl you don't know when there's no evidence that the niece was insufferable. She wasn't in the least.

Fortunately I am bumptious enough to laugh off the suggestion that I need support in social skills but other posters might object to that sort of language if it were used about them. "No insults or personal attacks" - that's the relevant forum rule and if you can't stick to it don't post.

Seeing as this is a public forum there are bound to be comments which will go either way...that is I feel the purpose of a public forum and therefore we are open to both support or criticsism...

Whilst we may not agree with what others post, there is always the possibility that we may misinterpret what the poster intended...much is lost with the written word due to the lack of intonation and inflection...

However if we post we have to accept that people may say things we don't like or agree with but that is the whole point of a public forum...

If we don't like the concept then why post at all?

Personally I found the original post very amusing, painfull memories of being a nauseating teenager which still send me cold when I remember them...oh happy days when life was so much simpler than it is now...

I am in now way supporting BB, from what I have read that would be quite unecessary and I would hate to throw my support where it is neither needed, welcomed or required...

Bumptious...I sincerely doubt that only adults read this section of the board it is open to all... and you did paint the situation as if your neice was boasting and bragging to the point of exhaustion, that was how I read it and I see that others felt the same way,"When Not To Boast" was the title of your thread afterall...

Kindest regards

Andrew

sorry BB you have misunderstood me, I was actually supporting you!! Since none of us were there
to know what happened, or know who you are, I was simply saying that people shouldn't read their own ideas
into the situation you described and then judge you. NONE of the ideas I put forward were meant to apply to you as a specific person, how can they when I don't know you? My aim was simply to get people to think that situations vary greatly and so to be slow to judge.....

I think Bumptious Bassoonist did right. She just stopped herself from telling her niece she had done better. From my experience, I don't think I'd have kept quiet. Frankly, I don't think most boys in my class would've kept quiet if another boy boasts about his marks and we ourselves have done better. Let's be honest - what Bumptious Bassoonist did is admirable but it's a tough act to follow.

There is a difference here though as it not ones fellow is boasting but ones niece.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to point out that there's no particular virtue in not saying to a kid - and a family member at that -: 'sheesh that's a poor result - I did so much better at your age'? It's just common decency, that's all.

Older family members can crush a child's spirit like no one else - something we should always remember as a matter of course.

I didn't pick up on the fact that BB is an adult learner, which changes things a little, in that it makes the post seem altogether more light-hearted and renders the subject worthy of bringing up at all! What came across to me in the first instance was the equivalent of a youngster telling me the result of a grade exam, and me thinking I was being virtuous in not pointing out that I did better at that stage! So I'm sorry if I was one of the ones who appeared a little incredulous at the topic being raised; it was a misunderstanding. Maybe I should have realised that this was the case since the thread is in 'adult learners'.

I think there is a lesson here for all of us who press the 'View New Posts' button: to ensure we also view the Forum the comments were posted in. I have narrowly stopped myself posting in Viva Strings on several occasions in threads such as 'What are you playing at the moment'. It's easily done, and in this instance led to several people, not just Dulciana, in misinterpreting the original post.

And if you have an adult learner in your family, please do try and make time to recognise their achievements. We work just as hard, if not harder for them, and often have to overcome far worse performance nerves in the exam situation.

BB isn't strictly an adult learner, which implies adult total beginner - she's what I'd normally call an adult returner, which is rather different; this is from a previous post:


Sorry but I think the original post was odd, and still do. But I'm having a terrible day today and am probably letting some of it out here - so apologies for that.

I don't want to pick but, I would say that if you're an adult and learning, your an adult learner. Obviously, if your an adult and you are doing diplomas and what I call 'higher' education then really I wouldn't class them as an adult learner. I learnt music at school as many people have - however the fact that I am doing lower grades, plus I am learning new instruments, I class myself as an adult learner. Differentiating between adult learners and adult returners is pretty futile since most would be considered adult returners. I would think there are very few people who are 'true' adult learners ie have never learnt music before.

But I am being playful here - and since you've had a terrible day how about a big hug to brighten it up?

Hmm, there are degrees of 'adult learner' and BB has already taken Grade 7 piano...... and used to play other instruments before to at least intermediate level by the sound of it...

For the record, I have three adult pupils (in their 30s and 40s) who have never played an instrument or even read music before except for a bit of recorder at primary school.

Anyway, I don't want to fight about this any more either. Thanks for the warm words - my day got slightly better but not that much, bar one nice, long, unexpected phone call from an old friend in California this evening, which cheered me up somewhat. Um, family life can really get you down at times but - hey ho!

Happy New Year all.

Being an adult learner seems to be a delicate subject - but I don't really understand why! If people are judged by others, it's always within a context - either they're starting young, or they've returned to music after a while away (that was me) or they're now taking the time to learn about something that they've always had an interest in but not the time or the resources to develop. Either way, I don't think age comes into it, unless we're talking about an eight-year-old playing Chopin like a concert pianist, in which case we think about age in our response, obviously! Of the small number of adults I've taught, one deserved credit for doing so well so quickly - irrespective of age. Another (who's still going strong) deserves credit for having staying power despite a very busy life-style as an international business person, father, political person, chairman of various boards, etc and so on. He still takes his lessons seriously, puts in as much work as he can, and makes progress. Both of these examples came to me as complete beginners, and it never really occurred to me to treat them any differently from my younger pupils, apart from my tone of voice at times.

Why is it that threads which are specifically about learning as an adult often seem to have undertones of ..........(and I genuinely can't think of a word to finish that sentence............. ).....?

Yes, it's great to learn as an adult, for a multitude of reasons. Why is it sometimes an issue?

Dulciana, it is an issue.

It's an issue when I look for work. I'm a 40-year old soprano. I'm competing against people who have 20 years more experience in the business than I do at the same age. No-one gives me credit for having got from first lesson to two diplomas in not much more than three years.

It's an issue when I get snide comments at a High Scorer's concert. I achieved a high score in my first exam in my first instrument in a fairly short space of time. I don't think that being 36 when I did it should have a bearing on how much of an achievement that is, but it appears that it's unfair to younger people that I did that.

It's an issue when, very like Bumptious Bassoonist, I'm expected to congratulate a family member for her musical achievements but the same family don't congratulate me for mine. I don't begrudge the youngster her praise at all, but isn't my spirit also worth not being crushed in the same way? Violinia for one obviously doesn't think so.

I have some adult learners, all singers, and it can be very difficult for them to find places to perform. The local festivals do not have adult learners’ classes and expect them to take part in the open ones where there are singers who are music college students or young professionals taking part. There is one competition for older singers but it is more of a fun class and not really suitable for learners except that it offers them some experience in performing to an audience and that is the Hymn Tune for the over fifties, or sixties or pensioners depending on what the local eisteddfod committee have chosen. There are far greater expectations placed upon adult learners and for no good reason. They need just as much praise as youngsters if not more. Perhaps we should start a new topic about this.

I don't think anyone would suggest that the OP (or any learner) doesn't deserve praise for her achievements.

The situation in the original post is different though. It wasn't the right time for the OP to get praise, as it was someone else's turn i.e: her neice who had just passed an exam.

I think I'd apply the same rules of good manners to this situation no matter what the age or either party. If someone I know has just passed an exam, no matter what their age, and I know I did better in the same exam at another time, what on earth would make me come out and say so when it's their turn in the spotlight, not mine? You'd have to be very callous to do a thing like that.


As to whether adult learners feel cheated out of praise/encouragement - I do sympathise with that. It does happen in my teaching practise that's for sure. Everyone who works hard deserves acknowledgement. It's simply wrong to steal someone else's thunder in order to get it.

Isn't it odd how people see adult learners of music? If an older person takes up a new language or follows an OU course they are encouraged and praised like mad by all but it is often very different when it comes to taking up practical music. Why the difference?

Thats a very good point petrat, I suspect it has something to do with the fact that most people see accomplished musicians performing when they are adults and not as children learning the ropes...sorry if that sounds a bit strange but I can liken it to the fact that I keep horses, all large Hunters over 17.2 hands people automatically presume because they are big that they must be older and experienced...the same goes when we see adults playing musical instruments, we presume that they have due to their age been playing all their lives and should therefore be highly accomplished. Adults get a bums rush in this case and it becomes doubly tricky, self conciousness kicks in, nerves take over and more often than not performance dries up which only compounds itself making the fact that the adult is a learner even more glaringly apparant. Unsympathetic adults in an audience or famly are rarely forgiving and almost pooh pooh the fact that an adult wants to learn to play a musical instrument..."surely" they think, if a person wanted to learn to play a musical instrument that they would have done so as a child and got all the squeaks and wobbles out of the way...

This is why the adult learners concerts are such a good idea, no expectations of genuis, just a nice relaxed atmosphere for adults to play in...

Anyway, must dash, need to squeak and wobble my way through a sonata or two

kindest regards

Andrew

It's easy for anyone to judge someone elses actions without first being in their shoes. As an adult we may have had a range of experiences when it comes to learning and receiving praise and in one split second we might say something we later regret. We've all opened our mouths and some point and wished we hadn't. And really, every adult is an 'adult learner' since every one of us at any stage could improve further - whether we learnt music as a child or had 30 years experience. Perhaps you wouldn't dream of saying that, personally I couldn't because I never had my score sheet to know, but the point is you don't know what you would do in that situation, under those same conditions.

And in reality the thought only went through her head, she didn't actually say it.

Maybe a few bad experiences can colour one's atiitude as an adult learner. In my experience, returning to music after a very long time, I got nothing but encouragement from both teacher and family. (Well, all except my mother, but she's another story and I just ignore her... ) And I see nothing but encouragement for my adult pupils. Nobody seems to think it's odd that they're doing this at their stage of life. They take part in our concerts just like everybody else; they don't get special treatment and their age is not a factor. I'm more likely to get an 'attitude' from a 13-year-old Grade 2 who feels that she ought to be more advanced in comparison to a 10-year-old Grade 4. Performance opportunities are rare for all ages unless you're a whizz-kid. As teacher I do my best for them all, regardless of age - but I'm sort of 'off' festivals for various reasons - but that's something for another thread probably!

I don't think it's rare for adult students to be beginners at all. Most of mine started from scratch with no ability to read music, or having played an instrument before they took up singing. The ages range from 20s to 60s. They all take part in my student concerts - no mean feat for adult beginners as there is an audience of 180, and some bring half a dozen family members. The families are so supportive, without exception, and through the concerts they have made friends with other adult beginners and support each other. Some of them have done grade 6 and are moving on, some are doing festivals for the first time. It's all down to their own attitude. As far as I'm concerned, it's "normal".

My teacher tells me that one of his students is an adult learner. It seems this guy is really old - I think my teacher mentioned that he was above 60. But he's truly dedicated to clarinet playing. The sad thing is he takes longer to learn because his fingers are a bit stiff with age. My teacher thinks some older people have stiffness of the fingers which makes playing well a tad more difficult.

I read what petrat says about society generally showing a lack of encouragement to old learners. It seems strange to me but I haven't really heard anything negative about old learners. But judging from the response in this forum, there must be a lot of adult learners in the UK. Certainly more than in my country. When I go for my Grade 5 Theory in March, I think I'll be among the tallest and oldest in the exam hall.

But I suppose my recent birthday has turned me technically into an adult learner. Hehe.

No, 13 is still considered a child - sorry

I don't want to butt in on the forum, as a child learner I may not have the right perspective... but I don't know if I'd really call this an adult learner issue... I mean if I passed an exam with high marks, and then two weeks later someone the same age as me passed with lower marks, I would certainly congratulate them, and hold off from bragging about my marks - in fact this has happened! I don't see at all why the age issue makes a difference. It doesn't occur to me to boast about my marks in that sort of situation, because it wouldn't even make me feel good - just guilty for destroying someone else's buzz. Likewise, my sister passed her guitar exam with merit recently, her grade one - I've just dug out the certificates, and it seems I did better on pieces in my singing grade one - but I wouldn't think to mention it either because it's irrelevent to her marks. She did better overall, and I'm sure she didn't particularly want to point that fact out either - her results and mine simply aren't related.

If the OP didn't get the praise she deserved at the time of her exemplary exam results because of her age, I think that's what should be upsetting - not that her niece did get the praise that she deserved when she passed... They are two separate events... I'm very glad that she didn't boast to her niece. Sorry, I don't want to get at anyone, but I just don't see how her age comes into it.

I like to see young people encouraged, however I do get asked well what grade are you? applied to singing. I answer honestly that the last graded exam I took was in 1988, and I'm now a Licenciate of the Royal Schools of Music Children need to know the truth too. If an adult pupil and a child pupil both take their grade 1 piano at the same time and the adult gets a merit and the child passes, as both pupils have sat in the waiting room together feeling equally nervous they are pleased for each other. Surely there is nothing wrong with that.

So what happens when my son takes his Grade 5 theory, and says to his Grandma, Grandma I got x in my grade 5 theory, after she has congratulated him, if he asks her what she got is she to lie or tell him the truth and say it was a mark in the high nineties?

I think age comes in to it in some way because (some) adults really do seem to enjoy raining on each other's parade in a way they wouldn't to children.

Most of the time, people remember to praise a child for what they have achieved. Say X got a pass, and Y got a merit. Y's mum will directly praise X; but could quite feasible point out to X's mum how much better Y did. There are just people like that, who measure everything and delight in pointing out where there child / aunt / fourth-cousin / etc did better than you / your child / your fourth-cousin.
It's seen in material culture too, so "I have a better / bigger / fancier car than you" or my house is worth more or I wear top-label cutting-edge fashion.

Now, I'm not saying we all turn in to hideous monsters when we become adults, but a certain proportion seems to.
On top of that, with music, exams are definitely seen as a thing children do. And 'of course' an adult should do better than a child - they're an adult! That's nonsense, two people who've been learning for one year can be of similar standard, even if there is 50 years difference in their age.

It's just the way that a G8 distinction in a musical child is (in general) regarded as a greater achievement than a G8 distinction in an adult who is also working full time, a parent, etc, etc, etc.


Not all that many people know I'm an OU student; most people would consider it odd for a programmer with a Masters in biology to be studying for a Classics degree. Most people don't think of that as fun, but those who know me know I enjoy it. Everyone else thinks I'm a bit strange.
But they would think me a whole lot stranger if I was studying an A-level, or GCSE. Lower-level stuff is for kids and adults who do these 'childish' things can be looked on strangely - and if they're too busy thinking 'She did what?' they neglect to say 'Well done'!

That was the point I had made earlier and Lucky puts it well. It's not to do with age, but with tact and good manners.


If such a question was asked (and it seems odd that it would be in the first place), she lies and says she can't remember Or she says that that isn't important and changes the subject.

I'm a bit put off by the whole concept of "boasting" anyway - it's not really a very nice thing in general is it? I knew people who boasted at school - no one ever liked them much....

Well of course if an adult does the same thing as a child they ought to get the same amount of praise - and of course often they don't - what got me about this though, was that the OP didn't say "no one praised me when I did it" they said "I had to praise her when she did it" or "no one praised me when she did it" which seemed a bit odd.

Well done for going for that classics degree - it sounds fun - but as for A-Levels etc I'm not sure... There is an adult in my A-Level French class, she has no job, and is doing one A-level - and that's not the same as doing four... it is harder... I was helping out at a year 8 parents evening and I overheard a conversation with a mother saying "I don't know why he doesn't do his homework - I'm doing a GCSE and he sees me doing mine" and I thought - well you're old enough to appreciate why you have to put the work in.... you're mature and sensible, and it is understandable that a twelve year old will need more guidance... so maybe that's the reason for the attitude - adults don't need to be cajoled and patronised... they don't need appreciation so much - though they do deserve it just as much...

I think in some ways, though it is very difficult for adults for many reasons, including the horrible prejudice, children do need more guidance and possibly more encouragement, because they aren't as able to motivate themselves...

Although adults need encouragement too crushing a child's spirit out of self aggrandisement is wrong - whether you're six or sixty.

Probably not the case for a lot of people, but in my case it's lack of interest. Because a lot of my friends/colleagues/family aren't interested in music making, they don't really take much notice of what I'm up to musically. However they're all interested to hear about my degree.

Sorry, I was quoting petrat's post about why people behave like this about adult music learners but not language/OU students etc, but it didn't work properly.

However what do you do when a kid asks you a question. If either of my neices asks me what did I get for my Grade 5 Singing so I lie, or say 132? I would always tell them the truth.

Of course my nieces are not likely to do that yet. If my son gets a mark that is less than 132 when he eventually gets grade 5 singing, well how will I react. I will celebrate his achievement and explain that Mummy wasn't really expecting that mark, it took a while to sink in and if he is still a treble that I was older than him at the time. If he does better then so what!

Truth hurts. Of course I wouldn't boast and keep it low key, but at the same time children do need to keep things in perspective.

I read the original post on Boxing day - and thought not a lot about it. Not something I would have posted personally if I had been in a similar situation - but not particularly controversial either.

I am rather bemused therefore that this thread has lasted as long as it has done. It's gone from should/shouldn't you knock a child's confidence to lack of recognition of an adult learner's achievements - and pretty much back again Surely self-recognition of your own achievements is the most important thing here? The 15 year old was right to be proud to have passed her G5 theory - does the mark really matter? Passing any exam is an achievement in itself and should be encouraged. Besides, a pass for one person against the odds is a far greater achievement than a distinction for another person upon whom fortune shines.

Going back to self-recognition, what I have achieved musically in the last two years means more to me than any of the professional qualifications that I have after my name. Most of my colleagues don't know what I am up to; even my own mother was really surprised when she heard me playing the piano and violin recently.

So why the need for recognition from others? After all, Joe Public would probably view musical achievements as a bit of 'self-indulgence' (which is how he views most art-forms). I keep going for myself - which I am sure most of you do - and if you need recognition the Forum is the ideal place for you to boast away!!!!

Going back to the question of what to say if asked (which is different to whether or not to point it out it you're not asked!).

I don't think children should be lied to. How would they feel if they found out at a later date that granny actually got ninety-something when she'd said got got seventy-something? They'd feel more inadequate than if they were told the truth in the first place. If granny is a respected individual, and the pinnacle of something to be aspired to, then I think granny should not feel guilty about allowing herself to remain so!

My mum was happy to remind me that she got almost twice as many marks in the composition part of grade 5 theory than me. I think, unless the children in question are very small, they would want to be told the truth and would accept that they can't be the best at everything. If they can't take being 'beaten', they're not going to last long in real life.
Hmm, that sounds more harsh than i meant it to, well you get the idea.

I don't think it's harsh. I think it's reality. No need to boast to a child but if the child is genuinely interested, then I think it needs truth. It's more than just having someone do better; it's about having aspirations. Sometimes it can mean the end of the line if the goal post is arrived at.

exactly.

I'm pretty sure my mum wouldn't remember what she got in her grade 5 theory, let alone my granny


I know I can't remember what I got in mine. I know I have it, which is enough for me.

You can still celebrate the success of your child even if you, or the child's grandmother did get a better grade. Your child has still achieved something. What is the point of all this mindless competition.

If when Matti eventually takes grade 5 singing her gets 133 + will I feel jealous?- of course not; similarly if he gets less than my 132, he should not feel a failure. He should still celebrate his achievement.

However we've got a couple of years to wait before we get there first.