Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/

(One of America’s top session jazz and rock bass guitarists for 50 years).

BASIC THEORY. Basic theory starts with the formation of chords. I never teach any scale until much later, after you learn the right notes to use in chordal situations and get to playing right away, with good ear-training chordal arpeggios and some useful rock/funk lines as well as good walking lines to use. It's just as easy to teach the finest walking lines (like what Ray Brown uses) as not. The note-scale is numbered 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and 8 starts 1 over again, then it's 8 (1) 9 (2) 10 (3rd). Chords are formed from every other note of the scale: R (for "root" same as "1"), 3 and 5 form the basic notes of the major chord, say like C, has R35, the notes of C E G in the chord. Cmaj7 has R357 C E G B in it - note: bass players NEVER (unless you’re walking) play the maj7th in their lines at all, you're only concerned with the 3rds and 5ths).
Carol Kaye
April 17, 1998

Plus, I cannot emphasize enough about the ear training that chordal tones improve. Your ears are literally hurt by all the proffered scales (which btw have made a lot of money for publishers). The experienced musicians will all tell you NOT to practice scales; that's not the way to learn to really play well, but rather to get your chordal notes together.
Carol Kaye
May 15, 1998

I have only just discovered this site today, 17th Sept `04.
I have taught clarinet and sax students this way for years, in my teaching of jazz improvisation. It works. Most of my 10 year olds will play simple and coherent jazz in 10 minutes. Because it’s much, much easier to hear how a simple chord (Root, 3, 5) will relate aurally to another simple chord, as opposed to the silly way of trying to teach improvisation through scales. I have played piano accompaniment for examinations where improvisation based on scales has seen the candidate all over the place, and not laying down any resemblance to the harmonic content of what is very much a tonal and chordal melodic structural test.
The teaching of scales in early jazz learning is therefore wrong and bad. Yet it still continues. It has become the norm. A lot of the U.K. colleges are now emphasising this in their jazz improvisation examinations. We may assume they prefer this way because ‘modern’ jazz seems to have veered away from conventional chordal structures (Gershwin/Ellington etc) towards freer jazz, which by it’s definition means that a common chord is forbidden. I know one reason for this, and that is a similar reason why in the rock`n`roll era, all guitarists preferred the 3 chord trick kinda music – because it’s easy to learn. So, scales have to come later, once the ear has some kind of related and progressive knowledge of chord structure. Scales are only one aspect of technique, which allows us to move through chordal structures, no matter how vague they may be. So I would recommend that all teachers of jazz, and colleges get their acts together, and realise what bad teaching is happening here at present. The entire jazz exam syllabuses need to be scrapped, and re-thought. It is basically impossible to learn how to improvise using a scale.

I truly and sincerely do not offer any apology for what you may consider to be my (these) dogmatic thoughts, and for the way I have laid them out – I know that my way works, and so do my pupils. Please think again! Thanks. A.W.

Blimey, I don't know! Actually I believe teaching to play rhythmically is the most important thing of all and should be taught first.

As for scales v chords, you won't get far just playing the 1 3 5 of each chord - surely you mean the more extended arpeggios, like 1 3 5 7 9 ?

And why not just teach both (chords and scales)?

Violinia

Having read your post i would say you are a bit of both.

>Blimey, I don't know! Actually I believe teaching to play rhythmically is the most important thing of all and should be taught first.

Because we are teaching *ear training*. Rhythm is a completely different entity. It *is* possible to improvise without any rhythm being introduced.

>As for scales v chords, you won't get far just playing the 1 3 5 of each chord - surely you mean the more extended arpeggios, like 1 3 5 7 9 ?

Not in ten minutes, no. Please read my post carefully. After one or two weeks I then start to introduce more notes into R,3,5. Usually the 6th degree first of all. The student will then eventually learn what all the notes *sound* like - minor 3rd, major 3rd; 4th; m7th, major 7th, 9th, b9; 11th, #11th etc.

>And why not just teach both (chords and scales)?

Because again, we are ear training. Scales are primarily to improve technique, finger strength, evenness of movement, dexterity etc. They don`t contribute very much towards harmonic progression/correct part movement knowledge where improvisation is concerned. Yes, we hear a lot of scales in jazz, but without the harmonic background being understood, it is no more than warming up, wild running around, bluffing. They are *only* a tool on the surface of a much more importantly required depth of understanding. A scale by itself is not 'music' without this underlying template knowledge of the harmonic context. It it only secondary. Ask any jazzer who plays scales with wild abandonment what they have just played. They will reply with one word, "C - - p".

This post shows just how primitive the world of ear training is.
TW

QUOTE (kornflakes @ Sep 17 2004, 02:21 PM)

Having read your post i would say you are a bit of both.  :D

You must have had sour milk with your Kornflakes this morning!

I have to agree! To an extent... I've found that teaching students basic chord tones is far more effective in developing improvisation, than teaching scales. Arpeggios are definitely the key to understanding the basic rule of improvisation - start with the notes in the chord, then add other notes that 'could' be in the chord, within the key, i.e R 3 5 7 9 13 etc.. It's even worth teaching arpeggios which contain each extension before any 'scales' are considered..

I would say however, that in an ideal world, one would be surely want to be fully au fait with scales and arpeggios, and their relationship to chord structures? After all, when dealing with key centres, an obvious place to start defining a 'key', is with the Ionian mode of that key - C major for example, all arpeggios can be found from each degree of the scale, by skipping a note each time -

C E G B, D F A C, E G B D, etc... Combine some scalar practice with all relevant arpeggios from that scale, and be aware of how each arpeggio defines a chord in it's own right, and you're off to a great start in understanding Harmony in a 'Jazz' context...

and so on... and so forth...

Tony, you said:

QUOTE

It *is* possible to improvise without any rhythm being introduced.

Improvise, yes, but not improvise jazz.

You'd be playing better jazz if you played rhythmically on one note right through a whole chorus than if you played arpeggios without any rhythm.

I rest my case - rhythm first.

But you're right that teaching them to recognise and understand the chord changes will train their ear much more effectively than telling them what scale to use over which chord, or which scales to use over which chord changes.

I've heard far too many "jazz" musicians playing the so-called right scales over the chord changes and sounding like complete robots. You get the feeling they have no real musical understanding of what's going on at all; they're just obeying certain rules.

And I'm sure many of the greats (before jazz education) played far more instinctively (and in a far more heartfelt way) and without having been consciously taught the "rules".

Violinia

>Tony, you said: QUOTE
It *is* possible to improvise without any rhythm being introduced.
Improvise, yes, but not improvise jazz.
You'd be playing better jazz if you played rhythmically on one note right through a whole chorus than if you played arpeggios without any rhythm.
I rest my case - rhythm first.

It is possible to improvise jazz without any 'so called' rhythm or rhythm section. Solo jazz out of tempo, and solo jazz with colla voce piano. The impro. will glide in and out of tempo. This is different from what you say.

>I've heard far too many "jazz" musicians playing the so-called right scales over the chord changes and sounding like complete robots. You get the feeling they have no real musical understanding of what's going on at all; they're just obeying certain rules.

If they *are* obeying the rules, then there`s intelligence there.

>And I'm sure many of the greats (before jazz education) played far more instinctively (and in a far more heartfelt way) and without having been consciously taught the "rules".

Yes, because their chord structure and melodic impro. *was* their heart, and their emotion. Scales were not what it was all about in performance.
TW

QUOTE

It is possible to improvise jazz without any 'so called' rhythm or rhythm section. Solo jazz out of tempo, and solo jazz with colla voce piano. The impro. will glide in and out of tempo. This is different from what you say.

Sorry, beg to differ.

It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing, and that's as true today as when it was first said.

What you're talking about here is free improvisation, which in the absence of a rhythm section can only be termed jazz in the loosest possible way.

QUOTE

If they *are* obeying the rules, then there`s intelligence there.

Um, no. You need some brain action to follow rules but you don;t need intelligence. Any bozo can read a chord chart and play the right scales over the right chords - all they need is the memory to recall the rules. That is NOT intelligence - sheesh!

By the way and for the record, I was improvising (jazz and other styles) for years before I had any notion that you were supposed to play the right scale or arpeggio over a particular chord. I'd just listen, and play what felt right, and I thought that was what everybody was doing.

Then a few years ago somebody told me about the blues scale and all the other scales and I thought - what??? But now I've added some jazz theory to what I do, and I guess it has extended my repertoire in a way - although having said that, it hasn't helped me to play with any more heart. When I play with my band I don't use chord charts or keep the chord chart in my head - I've just gone on playing what feels right over what's going on, otherwise things tend to sound too formulaic.

So if what you're saying is: less of the jazz training, more of the ear training, then I'm with you all the way.

Violinia

Violinia,
You seem to be agreeing, yet disagreeing with me. I find your posts a little vague. When starting to learn to improvise, chords and their relationship to each other is prime. Scales are secondary.
How can you improvise properly to a given scale when your pianist is playing at least four changes and repeating, yet you are not allowed to see what those changes are before the test. This is a test for perfect pitch recognition - not a test for intelligent ear development.
I repeat it *is possible* to improvise jazz freely. and still follow the changes, without a rhythm section pumping along behind you. It`s labelled 'Freely, and out of tempo'.
I`ve said my piece now, but I`ll bet you one whole year`s salary that the examination boards will not even listen to me. I`m sorry, but I know I`m right, and they are wrong. Bye.
TW
http://members.sibeliusmusic.com/anthonywakefield/

I don't think my posts are particularly vague. Why shouldn't I agree with some of what you say but disagree with the rest?

To re-iterate, I agree that playing along with the chord changes should be approached primarily aurally, rather than by working out which scale is "supposed" to fit with which chord. And if being conscious of arpeggios rather than scales helps you to approach music aurally, which it may well do, then you may be right on that one.

Where I disagree with you is on two fronts:

1 That it needs intelligence to follow rules - I don't think it does particularly.

2 On the rhythm front. If music strays too far from a rhythmic groove of any description it ceases to be jazz in the end and wanders into some other sort of territory.

This is why I think jazz needs to be played primarily from a rhythmic feel.

But as your argument is about scales versus chords...

OK, any jazz teacher who tells their pupils to run up and down the scales is going to be a useless teacher of jazz - surely you only use scales to the extent of telling them to use rhythmic snippets of them. Running up and down the scales is boring, boring, boring, and yes I suppose the danger of getting pupils to approach jazz by way of scales could lead them into doing this.

I get my pupils to listen to a piece and then sing the arpeggio of each chord as it arrives - that's a good way of training their ear. Once they can do it with their voice they can work out how to do it on their instrument and then away they go.

I just wish you would acknowledge the importance of rhythm too.

Violinia

QUOTE

If they *are* obeying the rules, then there`s intelligence there.

Not necessarily - a parrot can be taught to reproduce set formulae.

Maggie

He's gone, Maggie. That "bye" was supposed to tell us he's someone who likes to have the last word.

Violinia

Violinia,
Would you like to apologise?
AW

QUOTE (Tony Wakefield @ Sep 19 2004, 10:25 AM)

What kind of a site is this that will not allow the occasional mild adult comment. Not expletive here Violinia, I`m just a recipient of down to earth b*i*t*c*h*i*n*g! AW

It's a site where 12 year olds read what you say, Tony, and that word is far from a word which I would like to see you telling children

Come on, AW,

You are pretty dogmatic about this. Frankly, I can't see how you can separate the various elements talked about here. However, they can separately be emphasised. Thus, I'd see rhythm as particularly important. You need only look at the work of former greats like Zez Confrey and his perception of the differences between 'jazz' and 'classical' improvisation.

The original poster, Mr Wakefield, started by asking if he was mad or wrong?

I rest my case

Tony, you make a string of dogmatic posts, offer a poor argument in defence of your idea that rhythm in jazz is less important than chord awareness, cut and run and then return to demand an apology when someone makes a wry comment about you!

As Clarinetlover suggests, please get a grip!

Violinia

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Sep 19 2004, 09:08 PM)

The original poster, Mr Wakefield, started by asking if he was mad or wrong?   I rest my case

Go and rest somewhere else if you cannot Rhap sodin intelligently!
TW

Violinia,
> Tony, you make a string of dogmatic posts,

Yes - pray tell, what is wrong with being right?

> offer a poor argument in defence of your idea that rhythm in jazz is less important than chord awareness, cut and run -

Why do you insist on talking about rhythm, when I`m talking specifically about training the young ear to tell the difference between the chord of C major and G major? I`m very perplexed with *your* dogma in wanting to stress rhythm. It`s a completely different subject can`t you see? Yes, it`s important, in *all* music, not just jazz, but it is not at all important or related to my thesis on ear training using chords/arpeggios v scales. If you want me to talk about rhythm, I`ll probably advise stamping your feet, because stamping your ears would be pretty difficult, wouldn`t it?

> - and then return to demand an apology when someone makes a wry comment about you!

Yes, I always will.
Best wishes,
TW

QUOTE (Tony Wakefield @ Sep 19 2004, 10:43 PM)

QUOTE (Rhapsodin @ Sep 19 2004, 09:08 PM) The original poster, Mr Wakefield, started by asking if he was mad or wrong?   I rest my case Go and rest somewhere else if you cannot Rhap sodin intelligently! TW

Mr Wakefield,

I see you have to resort to the appallingly low tactic of slagging off someone's moniker in the sickliest of puns...to retaliate? You have perfected the art of scraping the bottom of the barrel, that's certain. I could come up with something similar on a-wake feeled... I mean, what were you feeling when you waked to ask that first question - are you mad or wrong? Tell you what, though - it'll do your self-confidence no good

Thankfully, your arrogant pomposity is giving every one a bit of a laugh here...adds colour to the board.... and makes a break from teaching your children no doubt.... but I am now in a position to answer your question for you - you are both... mad and wrong..

Geddit, Mr Fakewield...

Mr Freakweld,

I meant to ask...sorry....
are you are trumpet player? Do you play several at once? I won't offend the board by asking how....?!?!?!

I see you have to resort to the appallingly low tactic of slagging off someone's moniker in the sickliest of puns

Well, WHAT a moniker! I thought it quite funny. It`s just waiting to be slagged off on. Would you care to let us have your real names then, like I give mine. What are you frightened of? I do find it quite extaordinary why most seem to want to remain anonymous. I think I find it to be quite rude. And please don`t lecture me on internet security.
Best Wishes really,
Anthony Wakefield

You're obviously too slow to have realised this is the Net, yes? . .The N - E - T., where people have pseudonyms, precisely to protect themselves from predators like you. . . .

If you find this practice rather rude, this new-fangled medium is not the place for you.

(And I think a few people would be very happy if you departed and disappeared up your...um, clarinet bell or somewhere.

My real name? I am not afraid: . Hugh. G. Rectian.



Beddibies now, Mr Fankwield, you don't want to lose your beauty sleep - heavens, you need it more than I. And don't forget the lemon juice now....no milk or sugar...

QUOTE

Violinia, > Tony, you make a string of dogmatic posts, Yes - pray tell, what is wrong with being right?

LOL, Tony!

Brings to mind one of the guys in my band. I once said to him: "do you ever admit it when you're wrong?" and he replied: "I would if it ever happened."

As for the rhythm thing, you keep missing the point. You went on and on about it being better to learn your chords than your scales in jazz, and I said I would have thought rhythm was even more important - which is a fair comment in anyone's book.

You thought I was digressing, but it's a bit like understimating the importance of the quality of the ingredients when you're cooking.

Person A: I think sauteeing your vegetables is better than blanching them.
Person B: Before you even start out, make sure you get the best quality vegetables before you start worrying about what to do with them.
Person A: What's that got to do with anything? I was talking about sauteeing versus blanching
Person B: But if your vegetables are second-rate it doesn't matter what you do with them because they won't make a decent meal either way.

I rest my case.

Violinia

I'd just like to add that some people do lower the "Tone" of the place, don't they?

Hello, D Minor

Hmmm, he's a bit nearer casterbridge than weybridge, I can tell you!!!! They wouldn't let him near weybridge with his casio piano and that demeanour!

Were you referring to a composition there... goodness nose what it meant but I wonder if he'd lend me his dross machine - it obviously works very well... Shame he hasn't got any chart hits tho.
Nice to see you again, D minor. I'm a-dorian you as ever...

x

Violinia,
> You thought I was digressing, but it's a bit like understimating the importance of the quality of the ingredients when you're cooking.

You were digressing. Rhythm is not an ingredient of *C goes to Am goes to Dm goes to G7 goes to C*

> Person A: I think sauteeing your vegetables is better than blanching them.
Person B: Before you even start out, make sure you get the best quality vegetables before you start worrying about what to do with them.
Person A: What's that got to do with anything? I was talking about sauteeing versus blanching
Person B: But if your vegetables are second-rate it doesn't matter what you do with them because they won't make a decent meal either way.

I believe you`re now scraping the bottom of the pan here
TW

Rhapsod in D minor,
Anything else? Anybody else? Please feel free. I`m still talkin` about jazz and ear training don`t you know?
TW

"Scraping the bottom of the pan"? What a plagiarist!
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

As to your ultimate comment....I wish.

Don't waste more time on this wakefield person. He's an aspergers case with limited knowledge trying to get by on stercum tauri.

He's answered his own question. He's mad, wrong and smarts when put right. Notice he's been promoted to advanced member (on the strength of wasting everyone's time)!! Member is about right. A dysfunctional one at that.
i

QUOTE

He's answered his own question. He's mad, wrong and smarts when put right

Well put, ivorx

I can't quite see what he wants. I've agreed with him that learning the chord tones is a better way of training the ear in jazz than learning the scales but he's still not happy.

Perhaps he wants adulation or something. So why did he ask us if he was mad or wrong?

It's a mystery.

Violinia

>The original poster, Mr Wakefield, started by asking if he was mad or wrong?

>I rest my case

The writer of this, above, is the instigator of all the rubbish that has been directed at me. If this kind of derogatory post is going to be the first kind of reply by him in here, to my theories, then I`m certainly not going to take blame for reciprocating in a similar manner. The above post was not called for! Why did he not just intelligently disagree with me, putting forward his own beliefs, instead of slagging me off? he knows who he is, and I would like him to come forward, start again with some sensible comment on my original post, and we will continue from therein.

Everyone else has now followed like silly lost sheep, also now including a teacher who was putting forward some reasonable theories at first, but who is now trying to back track, trying to now agree with my teaching after first of all disagreeing.

I may be dogmatic - some things and ideas have to be. What I do not do tho` is initialise rude derogatory remarks in 'one liners' which only belong on the lips of a drunken yob. This is not what this forum is all about, but *all* of you have reduced it to this state, and I suggest you get of my back, take in what I`m teaching/trying to get across, get a life in here, and discuss it properly.

I will not respond to any more of your disgraceful mails, unless there is some worthwhile content about jazz teaching in them.
TW

And I would be pleased for the forum leaders to read all your posts above, and to read my last reply to you all, and to act accordingly please.
TW

Can I please remind users that these forums are to be used for the discussion and debate of music related issues - not for sarcasm, personal agendas or trading insults with other users. Please accept that not all forums members may necessarily subscribe to your way of thinking and respect their right to have a different opinion.

Please could we now only have contributions to this discussion thread that relate to the topic of jazz or the admin team will have to close it.

Many thanks

Christine Morris
Forums Administration

Dear All,

As per my previous warning, this discussion thread has now been closed and the non-music related postings made this morning have been deleted.

Regards

Christine Morris
Forums Administration