Before you begin reading, I would like to say this: If you don't want to read a hefty rant, then skip to the last 2 paragraphs.



Please note, I am a high school student living in California, in the United States of America. I joined these forums to seek advice and counsel of students who study in a country other than the USA. My belief is that your advice is much more valuable than any advice I can ever get from any high school teacher here.



Here goes.

My public high school orchestra director (for purpose of preserving her identity, we will refer to her as X) had to quit teaching at my school because of a new job opportunity elsewhere. Taking her place this year is W.

W has not taught an orchestra class before. Though she majored in music education back in her college years, she focused on teaching band. Not a surprise, considering that she has taught band and only band in the past.

What bothers me so far this year, and I often wonder and ponder over this: W does not seem to grasp the big and obvious concepts behind one of the pieces that we're playing this year, specifically the Introduction and Allegro for String Quartet and Orchestra in g minor, op. 47 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_and_Allegro_%28Elgar%29).

She does not make a difference in conducting a molto rit. versus a poco rit. To her, the two are completely the same. At least, that is how she has showed it through the 3 months that we have been rehearsing the piece so far.

As a string orchestra, it's fairly obvious that she doesn't even know the difference between a "down bow" versus an "up bow".



The main thing we only go over is intonation and tempo control, and she's not even very good at either of those. Intonation-wise, many students still slip up on notes in VERY important passages but she only goes only a fraction of them, and in a 2 hour rehearsal session (3 sessions per week, so 6 hours total per week) we have covered a pathetic amount. Tempo… Like I said before, she doesn't differentiate between a molto rit. and a poco rit.



Stringendo means nothing to her. We as an ensemble are speeding up, and going against her conducting patterns, WE as a class have to forcefully play faster than her. And when we do, she says "you're rushing! Stop rushing!"



There are important parts in the piece, such as lunga. Those of you who you study music history know that when Elgar writes a lunga, he REALLY means lunga. HOLD IT ALL THE WAY. Instead, my teacher completely ignores the lunga and jumps straight into the next phrase.



If Elgar were alive…. (forum administrators, please understand that the following statement is a hyperbolic statement and is not intended to be 100% serious)…. Elgar would've yelled and berated my conductor. She is disgracing Elgar's music.



Oh, and the strange thing is… The second violin section in our class seems to slow down a lot, and our conductor takes their speed… Instead of saying, "Second violins, you need to speed up!" she instead turns to the rest of the class and says, "You guys are rushing! Slow down!"



As a conducting student myself, having studied with professors here and abroad, I find it offensive that my conductor, at age 30+, with a master's degree in music education and/or performance, cannot even hold a steady tempo.



According to The Cambridge Companion to Conducting, my teacher fails all 9 criteria to be a conductor.













Here is the question to all the ABRSM users: In your country, would such a teacher as I described so hastily above be allowed to teach in the school that you currently attend? Does it matter, whether or not a teacher has a master's degree, if he or she cannot even hold tempo or read a score correctly, or do their homework, and can't accept responsibility for their own mistakes?









Toscanini once said, "Conductors are born. They cannot be trained." Do you guys believe this? I mean… a professor can certainly teach the physical movements of conducting, as I was taught… But in my years of experience, I've learned that there's more to conducting than what you learn in the classroom environment. Conducting entails multiple aspects of social paradigms, including leadership qualities, the ability to take responsibility, to do what is necessary, to know what is important, to be expressive, to understand the vision of the composer… What happened at my school? What HAPPENED?

in answer to the title: Yes

The ability of conductors to give a tempo and a comprehensible down beat can sometimes be astonishingly bad.

I presume from your name you are a cellist, so here is a 'cello related anecdote: The county youth choir and orchestra were performing Vivaldi's Gloria and the conductor wanted to take the last movement rather slowly. However I - singing bass - wasn't having it and I knew the front desk of cellos and they agreed with me so we went with my speed and the conductor lost - badly!

I would put it down as part of your education to deal with conductors that you disagree with or conductors who you think aren't up to it.

That does sound bad but there are plenty of poor and incompetent teachers working in the UK too. I have known some really good conductors and a few poor ones and it is quite easy to play up the poor ones if you feel so inclined. Personally, I would not do so. It would be quite unprofessional. I might well ask a few leading questions in rehearsals though.
"How much difference do you want between the molto rit and the poco rit? I wasn't sure that we followed your beat. There seemed to be no difference. Perhaps you could take us through those sections again?" or, in the stringendo passage: "Well just how would you like us to interpret this stringendo please?" and so on.
As you are studying the art of conducting would it be at all possible for you to offer to take one or two of the rehearsals? Then you could try to do things your way. You would need to have her there of course to make the points hit home.
Another thought: Perhaps you could ask her for some time to look over the score with her to ask her about her interpretation. Ask about things. Find out why she takes certain passages as she does. Tell her how you would take them and listen to her answers.
A final thought and remember that I know nothing at all about the standard of your orchestra, is that some of the younger or less competent players may be playing up to or beyond their limits and perhaps the only way that she can hold the group together is by taking things at the tempi that she does as a kind of damage limitation exercise. Is she doing the best that she can with a less than able band?
There are plenty of school teachers in this country too who have to do things that they are not very experienced at doing and this sounds like the case here. You may just have to grit your teeth and play to her direction and that can be a good lesson in itself.

Of course it is legal in the true sense. I know of no statute which prohibits a band teacher conducting a string orchestra!

Of course it is not desirable, and very frustrating for the players concerned so you have my sympathies there.

Hello neilthecellist,

I am afraid the reality is that music teachers in public (state) schools in North America vary greatly in training and overall ability. Having a master's degree in music education may not mean much; it all depends on the school and programme.

Given the information you provided, here are a few points to consider:

1) You attend an ordinary public school, not a school with specialized arts programmes. There is no guarantee that the school would get a teacher who is knowledgeable.

2) Obviously your new teacher is rather inexperienced working with string players. If she had the right training in school, her ability to lead an orchestra may improve with experience. I am sure certain skills from conducting a band would be transferrable to conducting an orchestra.

3) Good music education programmes in North America require students to learn to play and gain a basic understanding of many orchestral instruments. Furthermore, they are required to study conducting, as well as band and orchestra techniques. The former is a real course in conducting; the latter a more practical course, suitable for working with primary and secondary school students. Usually, in a band and orchestra techniques class, the ensembles are composed of students, who rotate among different instrumental families. They learn from the teacher/conductor's perspective. They also learn from the perspective of a string, woodwind and brass player. I wonder if your new teacher had gone through the kind of training described above, or if her programme focused on the theoretical aspects of classroom teaching?

4) It seems like your expectation for a secondary school orchestra conductor may be too high. Sure, professional conductors are born and not taught, so are professional instrumentalists and singers. But let's face the fact. We are talking about a secondary school here.

5) You mentioned that your new teacher paid the most attention on tempo and intonation control, but she was not very good. Furthermore, she ignored many markings on the score. These problems are perhaps caused by her inexperience in correcting technical faults in string players. I wonder if she ignored certain markings on the score deliberately? Pedagogically, a teacher cannot possibly fix every single fault in a rehearsal or two. Instead, certain faults should be corrected first; others could be fixed at a later time, etc.

6) I wonder what the standard of the orchestra was like before the arrival of the new teacher?

Are you leading the celli? In my experience if the four leaders of the string sections work together they can do pretty well pushing a weak conductor around. If he or she complains apologise and claim you must have been following the interpretation of which ever famous conductor you have a recording of... If you want to take over the orchestra you will need allies, but it can be done if it is worth risking a reputation as a trouble maker.

How vital is the orchestra to your musical education? I played very little indeed with my school orchestras and more with the local area youth and amateur ones, though that was mainly because the school orchestra didn't always include harp parts.

Firstly:



Elgar's dead. Get over it

I do mean that: even if this were a fully competent conductor, s/he would still be at liberty to *interpret* the music as s/he feels fit, just as you are when playing a cello piece solo. If his/her interpretation of the music is not to make much difference between poco and molto rit, that's up to him/her. Don't idolise dead composers (or even live ones). They're only human beings.

Secondly:
perhaps this conductor isn't particularly competent. Do you have the option to leave and play in another orchestra? If not, trust that her inadequecies will be recognised in time by other staff. Or if you think that's not going to happen, get a petition going amongst the players and take it to whoever her manager is. Look on it as a learning opportunity; you can still work on playing *your* best, within the context of the orchestra.

If the teacher has just been placed in an unfamiliar situation of conducting an ensemble they have no experience of then perhaps you could be a little more understanding of it. Very few degree, or even Masters, courses cover all the various ensembles someone could be asked to teach and some specialisation is inevitable. At the end of the day her aim is probably to get a presentable version of the piece which sounds reasonably good to the 'audience', and that the class learn something along the way. That means that she doesn't need to follow the score exactly as Elgar wrote it, or the way famous conductors have in the past, just get it together enough for it to work.

As a band conductor she probably wouldn't have that much experience of string instruments, but its really for the leader/section principals to deal with bowing unless the conductor wants a specific effect. You can hardly expect her to go over every intonation mistake in every passage in class, the fact is there are a lot of string players and its probably very difficult for the conductor to determine which one player in a section was out of tune. The idea surely is that you're meant to look over the passages at home, so those who are making mistakes should realise it even if she doesn't go over every single note that was slightly out. Even if it is very important passages it can take time for students who aren't as adept to learn how to play it, and her singling them out in a rehearsal could really demoralise some students and make it worse rather than better. If you're ignoring her so often can you blame her? If you don't follow her basic beat then she can be forgiven for thinking that you're just rushing and need to get the main tempo right before adding the marked tempo changes.

If they're second violins they tend to be not as good as the firsts, right? If they are playing at the conductors speed, or slower, then it may be an indication that they, or some of them, can't play it at tempo yet or at least can't play it at tempo in the context of the whole. That being the case the conductor has probably decided on a tempo that they know all the players can manage at that point, later they may well increase it add in the contrasting tempi etc but not until they know you're able to play it as a group properly.

Could your conductor maybe find it offensive that you're not holding a steady tempo when you play with her conducting? I doubt Karajan etc would be happy with it. If you're a conducting student surely you should realise just how annoying and demoralising it must be for her if you ignore her or play the complete opposite to what she is conducting. I think if Cambridge published a companion to orchestral playing your group would based on what you've said fail on at least some of the criterion.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but at the end of the day she is a teacher not a professional conductor and probably has no pretensions to being one. If you're interested in conducting don't you think it might be better asking her after the rehearsal/during break why she is conducting in a certain way rather than attacking her for doing it the 'wrong' way? There is almost certainly method in the madness.

There's a vast difference between conducting a professional orchestra and a school orchestra e.g. orchestras can hire/fire players, they don't need to put up with substandard playing, but in a school there's a lot of pressure to be inclusive and if you're getting credited with it for a class then there's even more pressure not to needlessly exclude pupils. The best conductors temper their expectations to what the group is capable of, and sometimes teachers are far better at doing that than professional conductors. It seems that your conductor may be doing just the things you say she is not doing, trying to show leadership, doing what is necessary given the resources. Maybe if you give her a chance and play it the way she is conducting it she will be able to move on to the intricacies of it, adding expression etc.

Your Orchestra has a new leader/conductor. She does things differently. You don't like her way of doing it, indeed you say she's doing it wrong. Tough; She's what you've got. No conductor needs or wants a fight and if you give her a fight there will be no winners.

Sorry to sound brutal, but shut up or get out - Chances are she will still be there, doing it her way, long after you have gone on to other things. Try following her & supporting her: It's not what you're used to and it's clearly not what you like, indeed it may feel alien to what you believe to be right. Consider that you may be wrong, though as a high school student with a strong sense of right and wrong, that may also feel alien (been there, done that, grown up a bit since - would you believe I'm more willing to admit to the possibility of being wrong now I'm a 48 year old consultant surgeon than I was as 16 year old!)

As for the question, of course it's legal: When and where has it ever been illegal for one teacher to be better in the eyes of her pupils than her replacement? Even more sadly, when & where has it ever been illegal to massacre music?

Good luck though!

Thank you all for your responses.


In this Baroque piece we're studying (Winter, by Vivaldi), she wants cellos and basses to hold out every quarter note. HELLO! BAROQUE INSTRUMENTS DON'T LET YOU DO THAT. THE BOW ISN'T LONG ENOUGH>

Let me share the following story:
[quote]
Know the Instruments:

No one expects the conductor to come to rehearsal able to play every part on every instrument. However, it is expected that you have studied each part separately, and that you know the basics of every instrument. In this way you can make sensible requests of your players. If you ask for double-tonguing where none is possible, you will lose respect. If you ask a timpanist to change sticks and work closer to the rim, you may get no only the sound you want but also the respect you have earned.

I once attended a rehearsal of a Mahler symphony led by a "maestro" whose work was full of gimmick and pizzazz. Nonetheless, things were going reasonably well until he stopped the orchestra to demand more sound from the pair of harps. They played louder. He stopped, now a bit impatiently, and asked for more. They played even louder, their intsruments falling flat and flatter with every grab. He stopped a third time, and demanded to know why they still weren't playing loud enouhg. (It aparently hadn't occrued to him to rseat the harps, or to adjust the rchestra's dynamics.) "But maestro," the first harp replied, "if we play louder our calluses will come off." "Well then," he said in a voice trembling with exasperation, "push down all the pedals, ######!"

Maestro was nearly hooted off the stage. The quality of sound you can obtain, and its blend and balance, derives materially from your working knowledge of the properties of every instrument. No one knew this better than Szell. Study his rehearsal films with Cleveland to see how he did it...[/quote]




I will happily clarify some inquiries made by some of you:

• First off, the class I am in is the highest level string ensemble at our high school.Four years ago, under conductor John Ramirez (Julliard graduate), we studied (notice how I don't just say "play" or "rehearse"... unlike most people in the USA, I say "STUDY" which is the accurate term) fairly comprehensive pieces, such as Brandenburg Concerto No. 3 (Bach) or Serenade for Strings in e minor (Dvorak). Also covered was Handel's infamous Concerto Grosso No. 4, along with all Four Seasons by Vivaldi.
  • Notably, in this year, the course syllabus read [paraphrased] "This class is the highest demanding performance ensemble as it pushes students to a pre-professional level."
• In the previous year we studied a concerto grosso under Pin Chen's (Northwestern graduate) baton by Handel, along with Serenade for Strings by Josef Suk, and notably Benjamin Britten's Simple Symphony.

[quote]The ability of conductors to give a tempo and a comprehensible down beat can sometimes be astonishingly bad.[/quote]
Well... W is the first bad one I've met in 8 years then.

[quote]Of course it is legal in the true sense. I know of no statute which prohibits a band teacher conducting a string orchestra![/quote]

-California Standards of Music Education.
-National Standards for Music Education.

[quote]4) It seems like your expectation for a secondary school orchestra conductor may be too high. Sure, professional conductors are born and not taught, so are professional instrumentalists and singers. But let's face the fact. We are talking about a secondary school here. [/quote]
[quote]Are you leading the celli? In my experience if the four leaders of the string sections work together they can do pretty well pushing a weak conductor around. If he or she complains apologise and claim you must have been following the interpretation of which ever famous conductor you have a recording of... If you want to take over the orchestra you will need allies, but it can be done if it is worth risking a reputation as a trouble maker.

How vital is the orchestra to your musical education? I played very little indeed with my school orchestras and more with the local area youth and amateur ones, though that was mainly because the school orchestra didn't always include harp parts. [/quote]

• I am and have been section leader/principal cellist for three years. I am in my last year at this school.
• I am highly considering leaving the ensemble for the next term (January 14th - June 3rd, 2008)
  • I do not, however, want to leave the ensemble knowing that no one has the willingness to bring back the standards the class once had. These players are competent, many of whom are already beginning high school technique exercises (such as Kreutzer etudes or Paganini caprices). Concerto study is also demanded by each musician's private teachers
• As said before, I am a high school student in my last year. Though some of you may be inclined to say, "Well, deal with it, you're going to inevitably leave the school when you graduate..." the fact remains that I have a dedication to music and would not want to see music ruined in the school's highest performing ensemble just because the teacher couldn't do what was necessary.

[quote]As a band conductor she probably wouldn't have that much experience of string instruments, but its really for the leader/section principals to deal with bowing unless the conductor wants a specific effect. [/quote]
I apologize, but I must disagree. Conductors, as I have been taught my whole life, are required (well not LEGALLY of course, but ethically-speaking-"required") to make bowings ahead of time, and not appear stupid in class.

Never should a conductor say, "You guys are slowing down!" as if to say that we're the ones making the mistake, when it's obviously W who is incapable of holding a tempo without slowing down. A conductor accepts responsibility, and does not scapegoat others for his/her mistakes.

========

There is a part in Introduction and Allegro where second violins have a pp <crescendo> subito ppp. The passage is one that evokes an "ethereal/heaven-like" sense to the listener.

Guess what? My conductor ruined it:

"Second violins! What are you doing?! CRESCENDO to a dynamic that is louder than what you started off with! Make it stronger!"

Uh.

No.

Elgar would've slapped her. Maybe even kicked her.

[quote]Elgar's dead.[/quote]

But he would've anyway.

[quote] from the Cambridge Companion to Conducting [/quote]
Criteria #6:

Achieve the vision of the composer.[/quote]

* Neil shakes his head in sadness. *

[quote]If they're second violins they tend to be not as good as the firsts, right? If they are playing at the conductors speed, or slower, then it may be an indication that they, or some of them, can't play it at tempo yet[/quote]
Clarification:

• One day, the conductor was absent. I took the podium, and decided to run through that section, and suddenly, the second violins were capable of keeping my speed.
• The next day, I tried to tell the conductor this, nicely of course. "Good morning, Ms. W. The rehearsal went well yesterday. I just wanted to let you know, at rehearsal 9, the second violins can actually keep the a tempo. We dont have to slow down there."
• Her response: "We're slowing down?"
• Me: "Yes."
• Her response: "Oh! [as if she suddenly understood?] Yeah... I got it... yeah....."
• Next day in rehearsal.....
  • When we're at rehearsal 9... suddenly we're slowing down again. The conductor, as I soon discovered, has been slowing down HER conducting for the second violins. And omigod... It sounded so bad in the recording.

[quote]Could your conductor maybe find it offensive that you're not holding a steady tempo when you play with her conducting? I doubt Karajan etc would be happy with it. If you're a conducting student surely you should realise just how annoying and demoralising it must be for her if you ignore her or play the complete opposite to what she is conducting. I think if Cambridge published a companion to orchestral playing your group would based on what you've said fail on at least some of the criterion. [/quote]

Well... Herbert von Karajan understands what stringendo and molto rit. means. My teacher clearly doesn't. Recently I've been conforming, with mental-silent grudges, to my teacher's tempo.


=======

Lastly, I'd like to say this:

I am a student with a burning intent on becoming a symphony conductor. I do not, however, know if the future would prefer that I teach students first, I suppose it would be good experience.

In my life, I have never known a truly "bad" conductor until now. I am surprised that despite having a master's degree in something, one can still... for the sake of keeping things short be a complete idiot when it comes to achieving the vision of the composer more like going against what the composer wanted.







I apologize for double posting, but I believe this merits a new reply:

I may not have a master's degree, let alone even a bachelor's degree yet, but I know the requirements of being a conductor. She fails all 9 criteria. She doesn't go home to study the piece, she doesn't analyze the pieces from an aesthetic or even a compostional standpoint. All we do in class is run a piece through, go through some trouble spots here and there, and then the rehearsal ends.

When I conduct, I will stop and say, "this section needs to be brought out more. It stands as the glorious projection Elgar had in mind when he wrote this piece! Remember, he was an emotional man, and here is his emotional music. BRING TEARS TO MY EYES, violas. Second violins, push quietly in the background, it will ring beautifully in the acoustics of the performance hall, I assure you.

The ascent into rehearsal 30 is one of pure fury. Imagine yourself on a canoe, and seconds before you realize it's too late, you're aboutto fall off the world's largest waterfall. I want THAT kind of crescendo, THAT kind of feeling coming from the first violins, it will resonate so sensually in our audience. When the audience hears that particular section, they should feel a whoosh in their stomachs! Bring THAT kind of touch to this piece.

Let's go over rehearsal 30 again, and keep those in mind. Make the climax a real climax."

When she stops, she just says: "Second violins. More." she doesn't even address the important players sometimes, like everything's just ink on a page to her.

Obviously conducting is one of your strengths, and it's hard to keep quite when you would do things a different way. However, you are at high school, not a specialist music school (as far as I can see) and this is what happens! The music teacher's strengths may lie in other areas, and she most likely has to keep on top of all the other activities she's employed to be in charge of.

I'm only a parent but I can feel your frustration. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the situation it's obvious you really care about what's happening.

Maybe something will happen to change things soon.

@ ad_libitum:

You are correct. Conducting is one of my talents.



However, I do not believe that it is solely the act of conducting that I think my teacher lacks. It's the art of it that she doesn't seem to grasp. In every rehearsal we've had for the past 3 months (actually 4 months now that 2008 just came around), it seems like she's treating music solely as ink on a piece of paper, and nothing else. Sure, once in a while, she'll throw in a forte here, a piano there, but other than that… we're not LEARNING.


@everyone else:

The purpose of a secondary school (is that what's it called in the United Kingdom? We call them "high schools" in the United States) is to educate students specifically to prepare them for college, as it says in the many first documents of the United States Department of Education.



Our current teacher clearly isn't preparing us for college under any circumstances. I highly doubt a conductor at the University of Southern California merely will say "second violins. Softer." (well then again, USC has one of the best music programs in the United States)



Anyway, the point is, music is more than a piece of paper, or even the creation of sounds. It's the art of conveying the music's meaning, the purpose of the music, it's everything that the composer wanted! It's not just "forte this" "loud here" "softer there". I just turned 18, but even as a 10-year-old, I knew this fact.



What is my school coming to? The apocalypse of music?

You make some very valid points Neil. Have you tried talking to her or your head of department about it?

I would suggest talking to her may be a way forward. Calmly. I think you do know your stuff.

Otherwise, you're probably going to have to stick with her methods. I've had conductors before that don't perhaps conduct in an ideal way/do the things I think would be good, but sometimes, I'm afraid that's life.

I know it won't help but Music provision in the uk isn't all that it could be either at times. My youngest has spent the whole of this school year teaching someone to play guitar. the teacher had the cheek to write on her Report that she had been learning to play guitar since September. I wonder why I'm paying for Guitar lessons

Hope things sort themselves out for you soon but this Teacher's attitude is something you will come across in life at least you'll get some skills in how to deal with these things.

Get this: She is the head of the Department of Music at my school. Pathetic, huh?





I have, however, one time contacted the school principal:



I told W that I was thinking of dropping the class at semester. Naturally, I expected her to say, "You shouldn't" but instead, she said, "You're not allowed to. It's against the rules."



Not believing her, because I've dropped a music class before, I decided to go the principal to ask. What did the principal say?



"Of course you can! Who said you couldn't?"

"Ms. W."

"Really?"

"Yeah, and she was going to call my parents and lie to them about it too."

"Oh my. I'm going to have a talk with her then."



Not only did my conductor get in trouble after that, my parents actually got on the phone and were furious over the whole matter. My parents are Asian immigrants who aren't very good at English, but when I told them that my teacher was going to effectively lie to my parents about me not being able to drop the class… They got very very very mad.



Imagine what they said, I won't post it here… It would be against forum rules.





But guess what?



Ms. W still teaches here. The principal only gave her an administrative warning.

I once had a conductor who conducted the Sleeping Beauty Waltz, in TWO.

Yes. A waltz. Conducted in TWO BEATS.

Madness. Admittedly we're not pre-professional or anything but it's nice when conductors can wave their arms around with a semblance of being right.

Hope it gets better at least, but it's a shame when these things happen, especially if you know you could do better haha.

Oh my. A waltz should be conducted in one, at the most, in three.



Sergiu Celibidache once said that there isn't a need to subdivide, since that should always be done mentally. I am of the same school of thought. I NEVER subdivide unless the musicians are TRULY incapable (of which they shouldn't even be in my class then)



What is the Young Persons Guide to the Orchestra? I heard it once through eavesdropping… The impression I got was that it's a UK-government-sponsored advocacy program to get more and more children into music. I may be wrong, of course. I'm not British.



Makes me want to leave this school already, but not before I can make sure I can leave the orchestra in peace and not let it falter even more than it already has.

I know nothing about conducting, but I did recognise this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Young_Per...o_the_Orchestra

Sorry but in a school context what happened four years ago, or even last year, can have very little bearing on the current quality of a group. Remember that turn over of players is vastly in excess of that of professional orchestras and with it being the 'top' string group its likely that its players are mainly comprised of the older students.

It is possible to have players who are individually fabulous musicians but put them in a group context and their playing can be useless. It doesn't really matter what studies they play or even how fast they play them, in an ensemble context listening is far more important, as you'll know. Intonation is also more down to individual players than the conductor, so if the players aren't listening enough to keep in tune its unfair to blame her.

Well a professional conductor, who at the time was the principal guest conductor of a national orchestra, left the bow markings almost entirely up to the leader, only intervening when he wanted a specific technique/effect used. Apart from anything else you're contradicting your earlier position on how much a conductor should know e.g.Why should a conductor, who has spent his whole career playing the flute, suddenly start telling string players who have been playing for decades how they should move the bow/in what way etc. (unless they want a specific effect other than the norm). I could see your point if it were a conductor who was a string player, however isn't it just as likely that the teacher is treating the group as she would a professional ensemble, leaving the bowings to your leader.

How is it possible for you to know specifically that its her fault? If you're playing in an ensemble its easy to blame the conductor when something is going wrong, but its not so easy to be aware of players at the back who may be slowing down. The effect, particularly if its a rhythm/bass section, can slow down the whole group before the conductor has time to compensate and then if they continue playing slowly it can become irretrievable, you can't always hold her responsible for how the rest of the group is playing.

Could you be misunderstanding her in this case? Perhaps she meant they weren't making enough of a contrast, i.e. they needed to get louder by the end of the phrase is order for the sub. to have its proper effect. Apart from anything else are you a personal friend of Elgar? Just because he wrote something last millennium doesn't mean its to be inviolable and worshipped. I'm sure he was a great guy, but i'm also sure this isn't the first time a conductor has done something which was in direct conflict with what the composer wrote and i'm fairly certain conductors at a far higher level have done just that.

If every conductor could her the music exactly as the composer did as he wrote it that would be great, but its not so get over it. If you want to truly realise it as the composer wrote it we'd all need to use period instruments, conductor's would probably need to go back to wearing wigs as that is how the composer would have envisioned it being performed etc.

You're the conducting student so why might she want it to slow down? Composers don't write everything in, maybe they want a massive accelerando, but its already going at a lively allegro what does a conductor do to compensate taking into account the fact the players can't all go that fast? Answer: One option is they slow it down before hand, maybe your conductor has decided she wants to make more of a tempo contrast or leave more room to accentuate a later passage or any one of dozens of options. If you're wanting to do conducting you have a perfect excuse to ask her why she is doing it, apart from anything else she may have conducted previously from a different version of the piece which may be more/less accurate than the one you've studied.

I think if you disagreed with Karajan, or conducted a rehearsal in his absence and informed him of some new discovery you'd made on how to improve his interpretation, you may find him less than amused. She probably will know what the terms mean, but to be perfectly honest i don't think its going to endanger her position either way and i don't think you complaining about it to anyone one in school or anywhere else will have any effect. The only way you're going to achieve anything is by working with her on it and so long as she's the teacher/conductor her decision will be final.

You do get bad conductors and you get that even with professional orchestras, not very often but occasionally, its not really paper qualifications that are most important though. As part of job interviews a few years ago we had an ensemble put together for them to conduct and the 'best qualified' candidate on paper, with a doctorate various other bits of paper etc was by far one of the worst conductors. Part of that may be conductors are born not taught, but it didn't have anything to do with staying true to the intent of the composer. The whole point of music is to enjoy it and you really can't enjoy playing music if its treated as some ossified relic in which nothing can be changed.

If you did that to most classes they would laugh at you, i assure you. You don't need to be some master of metaphors to conduct as long as you convey what you want and sometimes it best to do it simply (and our doctorate guy did something similar and wasted a significant portion of the rehearsal as a result).

Let me clarify:

The players from last year are roughly the same as this year, with the exception of a few additional students. Having been in the ensemble the longest, I know the capabilities of each student. I know that musicians don't DEGRADE over the years. Having a teacher say "Play all the way!" in a baroque piece for a short quarter note not only makes no sense, but is physically impossible, and as principal cellist/the section leader, I've actually had to confess to my section of cellists to "cheat with the bow" to make up for the non-sensical requests from the teacher.

As far as how I know the teacher is wrong… I just know. Sure, it's easy to question "Well maybe she meant" or "There's a possibility that…" but if we wanted to do that, we could spend 400 pages discussing every endless possibility.

However, that answer won't satisfy your intents, I'm assuming, so let me rephrase:

Once, I suffered a lung collapse and had to get lung surgery. Upon returning to school, my doctor said "no playing the cello." So I sat down in rehearsals but didn't play… Just watched. By definition, not having to play with the group meant that 100% brainpower could be allocated on focusing SOLELY on my teacher's conducting. And I still noticed the same thing. She was slowing down, blaming the ensemble for her mistakes.

I mean, come on, are you and I going to debate over the following scenario?

Molto accelerando e stringendo. "Why are you guys speeding up??!"

It's a matter of knowing what accelerando or stringendo means. That's only one way of many that I know my conductor's wrong. Let's move on from that, shall we?

Indeed, Elgar is dead. And no, I'm not a super-fan of Elgar. I am a student who is dedicated to the music, ANY music for that matter. In fact, I'm not one who personally likes Elgar, but if given the position of teaching the music, I realize that I must do what is necessary for the purpose of letting the students learn what the piece is all about.

I am metaphorical when it comes to all pieces, ranging from the Dvorak Serenade for Strings to the Tchaikovsky Pathetique Symphony (in a different ensemble). I can even be just as allured-in-descriptions when it comes to Baroque pieces, such as any of Corelli's Concerti Grossi.

If softer is all that needs to be said then say it, don't go into some rubbish about waterfalls or canoes unless they're not doing what you want.

Its not what the composer wanted, its can only ever be the conductor's interpretation of what the composer wanted and sometimes it is just as simple as forte or piano. It is possible for something to sound nice without some profound/tragic/horrific/happy notion behind it, listen to music play music to enjoy it not for whether it keeps true to every dot a dead guy wrote on a bit of paper a hundred years ago.

The only way the 'apocalypse of music' will come about is if people turn it in to such a rarefied field that only people with a masters or above can understand whats going on.

Why should a teacher loose they're job because of one student complaining, or one tiny detail about the schools rules which they didn't know about? Yes it would have been better if she had known, or if she'd checked first, but unless you can prove that it wasn't a genuine mistake then you have no case.

Key words: 'roughly the same'. One student or even two leaving an ensemble can have a significant effect, equally one or two joining who aren't up to the same standard yet or aren't as familiar with that type of group can easily be responsible for all the problems you've mentioned. I never said they degrade i said that they changed and if you've been in it longest then obviously all those players from four years ago, with the list of musical accomplishments are now irrelevant.

It might make sense according to what she has been taught, for all you know she was taught at university by an expert on baroque music who held a view against the accepted one. Get used to it professionals cheat, sometimes conductors ask the impossible, thats why they're conductors. With another orchestra we were looking at a piece where there was a rapid alternation between two notes, i think it was 16-ths, the pro flautist told us all to just trill, when someone pointed out that it was not marked he said the orchestra had always played it that way, under several different conductors (none of whom had noticed the 'cheat').

Yes and until you accept that you accept that your view is equally, if not more, likely to be wrong than her's then we can keep going on for the aforementioned 400 pages. (Good assumption by the way i hadn't even read further on yet ) Again it could be a matter of effect etc, still as you've said not much point in arguing it.

If you inspire pupils they're not going to care how much of a stickler you are for every detail, or how ridiculous your metaphors might sound (i vividly remember one invoking a dog in a microwave), but at the end of the day she has learnt the theory of how to educate children. There may be a method to it that you don't get yet, or you've not been taught, passion is great but passing it on is just as important.

Very true, assuming the musicians are motivated enough to understand the emotional demands of the music. Elgar, as you may have known from research, was a man "of massive effects", according to one scholar (do you guys put periods outside of the quotation mark in Britain? Just curious.)



However, the fact remains that, when the teacher simply says, "softer", the message doesn't get through to the minds of the musicians, not as easily as it does when you use the waterfall analogy. Especially when you're trying to describe the finale of the piece, when the dynamics in the music say "fff" while the teacher doesn't even go over dynamics in that particular section (while the musicians are clearly playing at a pathetic p), saying "play louder" didn't work when I was on the podium. The waterfall analogy, on the other hand, seemed to have opened Pandora's Box.



I think you and I can agree on the following maxim, although I will admit there is a sense of paradox in it:



Every ensemble has its own way of achieving success.



What is success? Well, that's defined by state and national standards for music education. (see http://www.menc.org/publication/books/standards.htm for the national standards)



What is the ensemble's own way? Well, that depends on the ensemble and the methods available! Obviously, as I said earlier, saying "Play louder" didn't have an effect. But going into the riveting description of metaphors got the effect needed. And the players were grateful, not to me, but for themselves (maybe they were grateful to me, but I could care less but my reputation in that sense, it's the music that counts in that moment).



True as well. However, if you've listened to a recording of Introduction and Allegro by Elgar, or read any description of it, you would realize that it was one of England's most epitome works of the 20th century. No, seriously. Listen to the last 5 minutes of it. Any recording. Tell me that it doesn't sound majestic or profound, because honestly, it's just not possible.



Yes, you're are right that is possible for something to sound nice without those strings attached, but if that were the case… Andrew Davis wouldn't exist, Leonard Bernstein wouldn't have attended music school, and Sergiu Celibidache wouldn't be a master of the Zen philosophy while at the same time a conductor. And by-golly, Seiji Ozawa wouldn't memorize his music and would only conduct as if conductors are only to be human metronomes.






Because the investigation by the principal revealed that she had been doing this the past four years, and despite previous complaints by other parents for other children that she shouldn't have been telling them that they had no right to drop, the parents decided not to pursue the matter anymore. What the principal of my school revealed was that what she was doing was completely intentional, she was perfectly aware of the rules. I even told her myself with paper in hand, but she didn't believe me, not until I took it straight to the administrative level. And yet, THAT didn't get her fired. I can see why, though, that you believe that that shouldn't merit a teacher getting fired, especially with California schools getting lack of proper funding.



Summarized: She did know.









May I ask you this: Are you or have you ever seen a conductor, either professional, pre-professional, or even a student conductor, conduct? Because it seems from the material in your posts that you think conducting is just an act of keeping tempo. It's not. NO conducting textbook, be it a choir textbook, an orchestra textbook, a band textbook, or even an opera textbook, will ever describe conducting as an act of merely holding the tempo. Not even in the Baroque era, my friend.



I cite the following textbooks:



Modern Conductor, The, by Elizabeth Green

The Art of Conducting by Hunsberger

The Cambridge Companion to Conducting

The Cambridge Companion to Orchestra

Principles of Orchestra by Stravinsky

Teaching Music with Passion by Robert Garofalo



[quote name='snhs' date='Jan 5 2008, 03:35 PM' post='652193'There may be a method to it that you don't get yet, or you've not been taught, passion is great but passing it on is just as important.[/quote]



Or the lack of passion. Seriously, her conducting is literally just to point out the tempo. I could hire a businessman…



There was actually a story about it:



One day, a wealthy businessman heard a Mahler symphony, and decided on a whim to conduct it. He hired a tutor to teach him the basic movements in one lesson, then fired the tutor.



The businessman then proceeded to hire an orchestra and performed the piece with "great success" as deemed by many critics.



After several performances, however, a critic began to notice that the businessman wasn't really doing anything. The audiences were so previously focused on the musicians that they didn't notice the conductor wasn't doing anything except giving very basic beats that you could learn on the first day of being a music-ed major.

I agree with some of the points raised by other forum members.

Obviously you have a passion for orchestral playing and conducting, and you know a lot about conducting. Your musical ability may be way beyond what is expected of a secondary school student. I can understand that it is quite frustrating for you to deal with mediocre playing or leadership now.

Obviously you have been very lucky to be able to work with a competent conductor in the past, and you wish the same could continue till the end of your high school life.

But you have to face the fact that this is high school, so stop comparing the conductors at your school--past and present--to the great masters such as Karajan and Ozawa. Even in the professional world, how many conductors are of that calibre?

Please face the reality here. Like some other forum members have suggested, you could leave the school orchestra if you are so unhappy there. Perhaps you could audition for a better orchestra outside the school. If you are so into conducting, perhaps you should see if you could work as an assistant conductor in a local community orchestra.

Hm. You guys are probably right. The general feeling I'm getting from you guys is that if I'm not able to effect any change on the music program, I might as well leave.

That makes sense.

I probably should, then. Thank you all for your input.

Just a few comments on an impossible situation:

1) Any orchestra that can play the Suk Serenade should cope easily with the Elgar "I & A";

2) A conscientious conductor should "know how the music goes" (George Hurst's phrase), by reading the score carefully and either studying with a master conductor or listening to a range of interpretations, or both;

3) Elgar's scores, and in particular the "I & A", are notated in great detail, and the differences (e.g. "molto rit."/"poco rit.) really do matter;

4) The many speed variations, and the number of parts, make the "I & A" a substantial challenge for a conductor, more than the Suk or the Dvorak (but considerably less than the "Rite of Spring"!);

5) A conductor of any orchestra ought to have some understanding of the strings, so as to know the varieties of timbre that are available from them;

6) In professional orchestras, conductors usually rely on the leader or other section principals to advise the other players on technique;

7) In the UK, music degrees (B, M or D) do not necessarily involve tuition in conducting, even as an option;*

8) Much of the technique of conducting can be taught, and there are short courses in conducting at summer schools e.g. Canford SSM

9) If you can't easily attend a course, many aspects of conducting can be learnt from books, e.g. "Orchestral Performance : a Guide for Conductors and Players", by Christopher Adey, which is particularly aimed at amateur and school orchestras.

* I think this is scandalous, as many music graduates go into teaching and may immediately find themselves conducting school orchestras and choirs.

I feel very strongly for neilthecellist's situation, because the "I & A" is such a great work (one of Elgar's top three, IMO, along with the Variations and "Falstaff"), and to be involved in its perversion would plunge me into such depths of depression. In his position, I would certainly leave the orchestra.

I know very little about conducting beyond a little tuition on dealing with a church choir - and from having been on the receiving end of choir conductors as an accompanist. But I've been reading with interest and also smpathise. If everyone was to simply accept rather than question then nothing would improve in this type of situation. However if you are something of a voice in the wilderness you are likely only to succeed in making yourself unpopular whilst having to continue with the frustration - so I'd agree with kenm.

All's I'd say is that you should just put up with it. If you take this attitude to your line manager when you get out into the big wide world you will lose your job. We all have to do things we don't agree with but at the end of the day the teacher is in charge and she has to take what'll benefit the group as a whole to heart.

I was in the position last year where I was more skilled than a teacher but I just got on with my work and helped other people if they asked for it, often putting his mistakes right - I didn't kick up a massive fuss with the management.

Just my deux centimes.

SHOULD. By "orchestra", do you mean the players, the conductor, or the whole ensemble? I know for certain the tha players are capable of Elgar's "I & A", but again, when you have a conductor who is ruining it, you know what that does to the players. They slack. They don't care anymore. And since this is a high school ensemble, that level of "not caring" is exponentially dangerous for the years to come in the ensemble.

George Hurst was right! As most conducting textbooks say as well. Also, you're right, any conductor should have a fundamental understanding of strings, that is taught in ALL conducting classes.




Usually, or sometimes? Because I know professional conductors myself who instate the string technique, or at the least, have a conference with the principal string leaders before the first rehearsal.


Sorry, I live in the USA. Um... does "tuition" mean to teach, in UK-English? In America, "tuition" means "money." But anyway, I'm straying off topic! What kind of music degree-focus do you mean? Music performance? Music Education? Music Composition?

But you're right, it's scandalous, and totally inappropriate. Having a Master's Degree in music education but not knowing the difference between molto rit. and poco rit. is like saying, "I didn't really pay attention in graduate school, but I'm your teacher anyway! Muhahaha! Evil wins!"



I 50% agree, 50% disagree. I believe that the physical act of conducting can be taught, but as far as manifesting the ART of conducting, that must be taught not out of textbook, and only through human interactions.

I myself have studied and effectively learned conducting both ways, through books and people.



Thanks. I'm already thinking about leaving. I thought that maybe the orchestra was salvagable, but at this rate, I don't think that's an option anymore.


In the real world, I would be earning money, not a superfluous grade. Of course, if I were under Barenboim or Ozawa's baton (or Karajan!) I would shut up and obey, but when I'm still just a student, and 22+ years apart from my teacher, and I happen to at least UNDERSTAND how to treat the kind of music we normally play... THAT is grotesquely in itself, frustrating.


=====
To people in general:
Just because you may have had a bad conductor in your lifetime does not make that conductor "correct" in their actions. If the world were 60% murderers and 40% innocents, does that mean that because the majority of the society are murderers, that the act of random murder is morally justified and correct? No.

In the United States, we have the National Standards for Music Education. My teacher doesn't follow them, clearly.

I think either is acceptable, not entirely sure though. To be honest if the teacher can get everyone using apostrophes properly they're usually quite happy

Yes but if you use an expansive metaphor every time then it can be difficult for a musician to distinguish between when you want a massive difference or a slight one. Equally musicians at high school, particularly towards the end of the day can just get lazy, they probably know its not loud/quiet enough but they don't need an expansive metaphor to explain it and if its not enough then a bit of shouting/imagery can be useful. In a professional context if its a crucial part of the conductor's 'vision' then the metaphors etc can help, but it can also take two or three times as long to do so and in a professional setting time is money so you don't get as much rehearsal time as you might like. It can easily become a balance of harms, if the first two movements are fantastic but you run out of time to do the third then the concert will still be reviewed as a bit of a flop.

Paradoxes are sometimes all there is to it, but one standard doesn't fit all even if it is written by some guy at a state or national level. The inverse is also true obviously, e.g. if the metaphor goes so overboard that your principal flautist on recollecting it bursts out laughing half way through a solo.

Valid point, but if i were to play that same music while watching an episode of a children's TV show or watching a farce at a theatre it wouldn't seem as majestic. Equally if his stimulus in writing it had been a shopping list or a piece of mouldy bread and he had orchestrated it in a similar way it could still sound just as majestic, even though his motivation was less so.

Do you think Renaissance/Baroque music sounds nice? A lot of it was written because a bunch of rich guys wanted something nice to play or listen to. Sometimes it was even just a matter of keeping up with the Joneses. They didn't really care what the composer was thinking of as he wrote it as long as it did what they wanted and often the players would decorate the melody so much that the composer might find it difficult to recognise it adding massive rits changing the tempo at will. It wasn't true to the composers intent the conductor probably wouldn't have done any research into the composer's thoughts in composing the piece, but people loved listening to it and music was able to develop partly because of that patronage of those who heard it.

There is any number of reasons why a teacher could not be aware of a school's regs or could make a mistake on them. If the parents had previously only complained to her and she believed her subject/course was for whatever reason exempt then why wouldn't see repeat the same information to numerous students over the course of several years. If the first child's parents had contacted the office and the policy had been clarified to her then there would be no question of her being fired (and even with the paper evidence she may have been told/believed that it wasn't applicable). If she was doing it in full knowledge that the school regs said something different then it may be a valid point, but if key students had left the orchestra and its standard declined then her head might have ended up on the chopping block anyway.

I've seen quite a few professional conductors, been conducted by a few and several non professional conductors who are teachers with degrees etc. But in spite of that at the end of the day, on the stage the conductor is just that a metronome who keeps the orchestra together, at times adapting to a situation or adding to the mood obviously. Your example on the Mahler actually demonstrates the point, a professional orchestra can play well and get a decent review regardless of (some might say despite) the guy up front. Indeed they can do fairly well with no conductor at all and just a leader or soloist directing, as was common in Baroque/early music. There's obviously more to it than that if you go to a high enough level, after all just about anyone can fold a bit of paper in two but it takes talent to turn it into an origami swan. By the sound of it you've had professional or near professional conductors previously and they've maybe went about it in the same way as if you were a pro group, but why what was their motivation? Chances are it was to add a bit to their C.V., they needed experience wielding a baton before they could get their profile high enough for them to be attractive to other groups. They needed your group to play well so that their career could advance, and they might have been inspiring to you, but a teachers motivation is different.

To give tuition or receive tuition would generally be if you were being taught, i think in the U.K. we'd use tuition fees if we were referring to the money side.

But when she is on the podium she is Baremboim or Ozawa or whoever else, not literally of course. It's like the mentality of ship Captains a few hundred years ago 'on this ship i'm God' kind of thing, you had to follow whether they were a Nelson or a Bligh. The same is true of conductors, if you'd follow certain people were they to do the wrong thing then surely your teacher is due the same degree of respect.

I'm not entirely sure if your perception that your position has turned into the forlorn hope is correct, couldn't you try persuading the teacher to let you conduct the group as a extra thing for your interviews and to help you explore technique etc (with her 'supervising' obviously)?

Well, we were discussing the Introduction and Allegro by Edward Elgar. That piece is solely majestic. You can't try playing the Introduction and Allegro as if it were Beethoven's Ninth. Clearly, there exists some ground in the way it was written (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=-CcRAAAAYAAJ&dq=introduction+and+allegro&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=CJ6Xri3lsa&sig=6YopYGM3KPP8f5dw4QM8ilrgnLs)
that strongly indicates that you can't play it otherwise.

I'm not interested in the motives of my previous conductors. A job is a job. Such has stayed the same, only the people who take that job have changed. Indeed, every conductor has their own set of principles, but nonetheless, there exists a common ground, in both State/National standards for music education as well as what the piece itself demands.

Basically, imagine playing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" but as Beethoven. You'd probably throw accents, ffffffff dynamic and the opposite of morando as the subline. Sure, the cops won't come in and say, "What you're doing is illegal!" because, as you and I would probably agree, there isn't LITERALLY a force that can check on such acts.

In the end, however, if one is dissatisfied with how things are running in an orchestra, if that one person finds that principles are being violated, either his/her personal principles or just any principles in general, and is angry for that reason, among many others, I think (as many others have suggested) I should just leave the ensemble.

Hm... But to be honest, I wouldn't want to leave without getting the message across to my teacher first. I mean, if I'm going to leave, it wouldn't hurt, would it? In fact, it would probably help more than hurt, telling her why I am leaving.

But of course, if it's just a job to her... Then it's only money, not the caring-aspect for the classes she is required to teach.

Music is not just ink on a piece of paper!


Btw, you're right about the Baroque music thing, but I don't see its relevance to the topic at hand.

I meant specifically that the violinists must have an excellent technique for a high school to play the last movement of the Suk Serenade, which is even more difficult than the Elgar I & A. A good professional orchestra would deliver at worst a coordinated performance of the Elgar under your conductor, but she would still prevent them from delivering its essence.

Making the players care about the music is the prime responsibility of a conductor. Destroying that care is the height of immorality.

I would expect them to discuss bowing, phrasing and timbre (e.g. sul tasto or sul ponticello) but not to tell professionals how to play. Monteux used to forbid his conducting students to talk from the rostrum to the section in which they played themselves. However, amateur and youth orchestras are different, and a string playing conductor may well advise them on technique.

I mean that they should be taught to conduct, and at some universities they are not; at others they are, on the Bachelor degree. Note that the standard of Bachelor degrees in the UK is generally thought to be somewhat higher than in the US, where a Masters is a requirement for many teaching posts.

I meant general music degrees at a university, which usually involve history, counterpoint, some composition and possibly some analysis and performance in the first two years and choice of some of these subjects for the third year. For music education, graduates would spend a fourth year in an Education Department on a Postgraduate Certificate of Education (learning how to teach). Most performers attend a conservatory of music, and if they are intending to be professional performers may not care to learn conducting. However, conducting is an option at most conservatories in the UK, AFAIK.

If they studied music in secondary school (= high school) they weren't listening then either.



The personality to be a top conductor is not teachable, but rather more than stick technique is. A major responsibility of the conductor is to listen to the ensemble, compare what would be heard by the audience (perhaps 50 feet behind the rostrum) with what should be heard, and change the performance to approach the ideal more closely. The sensitive ear, the attention to detail and the memory to do this within an efficient rehearsal can all be improved by study and practice.

What if a conductor were to decide it might sound nice with a more jazzy sound though maybe swung quavers? The fact is if you change the context you are listening to any piece in it can diminish/augment the piece or turn it into farce. If it were to used in a coronation the majestic side would appear to augment the majesty but if it were used as part of a pastiche of a coronation in a comedy it would sound not majestic but incongruous and may due to that setting sound ridiculous as opposed to majestic (even if the conductor was doing everything as Elgar envisioned).

It can be argued that teaching is not a job, but more of a vocation. If you ever get the chance to see Mr Holland's Opus you might see what i mean. Your teacher is never going to get rich or famous conducting your group or teaching, her aim is, hopefully, to make a difference to your lives. I would view that as being a nobler motive than someone who was in it predominantly for their own self interest or even for the greater glory of music. But if you went to a particularly poor school, or an area that was less well off do you think teaching would be at the same standard, or even meeting the basic standard? Politicians and bureaucrats are great at writing paper mountains for everyone else to climb but very few can reach the summit. If it meets Elgar's vision then great, but if your state's documents demand the kind of standard/precision/analysis you seem to expect then i'm certain the vast majority of schools won't come close to matching them.

What about a jazz version or turning it into a fugue? They might sound every bit as nice as the original if not more so, why should we keep doing the same things just because they've been done? Remember why Kennedy wanted to get to the moon, "not because these things are easy, but because they are hard".

If thats what you think is best under the circumstances then do so. Equally if people just left every time they disagreed with the establishment America wouldn't exist. I don't think telling her its wrong is the best way to go about it, what's the point in starting a feud when you'll be gone in a few months anyway? In this kind of situation though you can't really work around her, so its either with her or leave. Having said that if you're subtle enough you may be able to bring her round to your view without pitched battle.

Music is just ink on a page, in a certain form anyway. It can be infinitely more but it can also be far less. Music is dead until someone plays it and brings it to life, if we allow music to stagnate with no advancement then its already doomed to history on the other hand if people can bring it to life then it can be alive once more in the way Beethoven etc intended, maybe not identical to what they thought it should be but alive and vibrant.

I think she is probably just as interested, if not more so, in teaching your class and doing the best by them than any of your previous conductors. Maybe she isn't the best conductor but she is trying, she may be taking the class because some pro got a better offer and it was too late to find someone else. You can't really know, my guess is her view is that the class is primary and the music is secondary in this case, and for a teacher that is probably the best mindset.

You had emphasised the importance of conducting, i was pointing out that the role of conductor can, and has, been fulfilled without waving your arms around or standing at the front using metaphors or anything else. As long as someone or something is there to keep the beat then thats all that is needed, music is bigger than that on which it depends, if you turn conducting into some high art then it can easily become the main focus rather than the music (even if all the while you're trying to get what Elgar wanted).

If you are, as I assume, going to apply to University for a music related course will she not either be asked to write you a reference, or be asked to advise the head teacher or whoever does? If she takes you telling her why you are leaving badly it could potentially hurt quite a lot.

Yes, I've already filed my applications to universities.

Could you clarify what you meant by what I've bold-faced in your quote?

I don't know if its the same in the US, but here, teacher references are really important to getting into university, so you want to avoid upsetting your teachers, otherwise they might spoil your chances by writing something horrible about you.

If anyone decided that with this particular piece, it would demonstrate his/her totally lack of artistic judgment. Bach in straightforward rhythms takes the added complexity with no damage; in the Elgar piece, the rhythms are extremely complex, with triplet quavers against duplets in some places.

Playing this piece at a coronation would also show lack of artistic judgment.

It has a fugue in it already.

The initial post claims that the conductor is keeping a beat that contradicted Elgar's express requirements, so even your very low standards of conducting are not being met. Knowing what the Italian tempo terms mean is not "high art"; not knowing what speed to conduct at is just lazyness, since many performances are available on record.

I already got a rec letter from a previous teacher. (rec letter in the US = "teacher references" in the UK?)




Completely agreed, I can't better say it myself.

maybe you'll be ok then, if you're absolutely sure it won't affect you, go for it and have it out with this teacher

As Sarah says, if anyone at your school needs to write to support your university applications and has not yet done so they are likely to ask the relevant subject teacher (ie the head of music) for her opinion. You want to avoid a situation where the teacher is feeling upset with you when this happens (or for her to truly believe that as you disagree with the teacher so much you will not fit in well with the university course or aren't good at the subject - teachers usually assume they know more than the student). She is, after all, human!

It was at least 15 years ago also not unknown in the UK for universities to ring up the school off the record and ask for more information (informal, off the record, and I believe not supposed to happen any more). I have no idea how much of this applies to the US but caution may be wise until you have a firm offer of a place.

As I'm only a parent I can't give you any advice. Just wondered are you the only student dis-satisfied with the Conductor? If you have a body of support then maybe you could find a way round the situation until the end of year. By either leaving on mass (drastic) or getting together to discuss how the pieces are going to be played and doing them that way as best you can ignoring her directions (dangerous).

I think like you, if it was me in your situation I'd want to hit back. I suspect though from what you have said that she's not the type of person to recognise what you are saying so it maybe pointless having it out with her, even though you might feel better afterwards.

Artistic judgment aside, the setting can completely change the perception of any piece no matter how majestic or profound.

I think i was continuing his example of Twinkle Twinkle, and unless the basic version has changed quite a bit i don't think it contains a fugue. My point was that if no one ever thought music could be changed, and maybe even improved, we'd still be using modal constructs from Ancient Greece or some far more primitive harmony with no pianos/clarinets etc. Almost every time music has changed the old guard has been predominantly against it but if that change hadn't happened music wouldn't be alive, your Elgar piece wouldn't even exist. If we turn any piece into a quest for single minded perfection of the composers intent then we allow it to stagnate, if it becomes such a complex entity that only people with degrees in music can approach it then there is no point to it. Music is there to be enjoyed and while a handful of people may adore its technical perfection most people, the constituency you need to aim for, won't care so long as it sounds good.

Elgar is not a God, there is no reason why long after he is dead we can't have different interpretations of the same piece. Many conductors have ignored Beethoven's metronome marks on the basis that they're ridiculously fast/slow does that mean any recording that is outwith the range set by the conductor is automatically a failure/wrong/not worth playing/listening to? I didn't specify that the beat needed to be steady, nor did i say that it had to follow the intent of the composer. In what way am i implying low standards of conducting when i say music should be the main focus? If a conductor or player gets so involved with their own aim or 'higher' purpose they can lose sight of the whole point of the music, to be enjoyed. You, like the initial poster, are presuming the worst. Just because she doesn't follow the markings doesn't mean she can't understand what they indicate. It is quite obvious that she does know what speed to conduct at, as the conductor she sets the tempo, in the same way any other conductor would and if it varies from whats written or what famous composers/conductors would want it doesn't matter. If every piece was conducted in exactly the same way by every conductor and every orchestra played it identically with the same degree of technical proficiency it would just get boring after a while, the music would lose its vibrancy because there was absolutely nothing different to the other thirty times they had heard it.

All the students in the class are dis-satisifed, but are too... what's the word you guys use in the UK? I describe it as "chicken". They're too afraid of standing up for what's right. When I suggested a petition, no one wanted to sign it. Some parents wanted to, but the kids themselves didn't.

You'd expect a class of students who take a million AP (equivalent to IB) classes would have the courage to stand up for what's right...

You would but it doesn't happen. On the other side of the coin teachers often don't listen. My daughter plays several instrument to Grade 5 standard. In the Uk the children are given targets (government initiative), the teacher gives by daughter an assessed target of 4a on her School Report. I asked why the target was so low last year. This year she gives her exactly the same level and wonders why both my child I are upset. Well because the same child has achieved a 4a in French that she's only been studying one lesson a week since September .

I've caused a big row by making the challenge, worst of all it'sa not with me but someone else who wanted to help out, and the Teacher is very upset. None of that was my intention, she now feels under pressure and I'm sure some of the opportunities my daughter once had will disappear. I only wanted her to give my child some extension work rather than leaving her supporting other members of the class without any recognition and basically ignoring it. They all end up with the same assessed level.

To my child it won't make too much difference because she gets lots of support outside of school and the quality of school music is not that high. At the end of the day she has another 2 terms in this year and three terms next year that she needs to be occupied in. The teacher is also risking loosing the schools most experienced player and someone who is willing to participate in musical things at school. I somehow doubt that it will be seen that way though.

A petition is a bit final so in a way I can understand why they won't subscribe to it. What is obvious to the people the behaviour is effecting isn't always clear to the person displaying the behaviour.

I hope you have success with what your trying ot achieve. You might have to think outside the box to achieve it (wish I'd taken my own advice ).

Your experience is similar to what the students in my class are scared of enduring.



I, however, will consider your experience heavily as far as what plan of action I will personally take.

Just don't take my advice Next move is showdown!!!

I really hope things sort themselves out for you so that they are at least tolerable. Take heart from the fact that there are others who will feel the same even if they are not ready to be counted yet.

What bothers me the most is that, a person like the concertmaster in my class, who's been concertmaster for several years, not just in school orchestras but in a youth orchestra and such, doesn't have the tenacity to take charge.

I, a cellist, have been principal cellist for many years, and I constantly find that I have to forcefully step out of my place JUST so I can make a point to the teacher about something that it is critically or fundamentally wrong.

It turns out that my teacher has FINALLY granted a one-on-one conference with her this Thursday so I can talk about the 200+ changes that I'd like to make to the piece before our concert on January 17th.