Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the advice on poaching pupils part 1... I met with the young boy yesterday, and found out a bit more abuot the previous teacher, I was really shocked at what I heard.

Apparently, the reason his father insisted on going into lessons was because his son always came home from every Piano lesson upset, so because he was concerned he asked if he could sit in. The teacher was a bit miffed at this but let him. After seeing her behaviour towards his son (who is only 6), he tried to talk to her about it and asked if she could be a bit kinder to him (apparently he is the sort of child that does need constant reassurance, but I mean, he's only 6, I would have thought that was normal). This teacher took it really personally and.... this is what I can't believe.... she had a full blown rant at him saying that he had no musical talent at all, and strongly advised that he give up the Piano anyway as he wouldn't get anywhere with it. All this whilst the child was in the room, and he went home and cried for days. I was dumbfounded when I heard this; I tried to be tactful and asked the parents if those were her exact words, which they insisted they were. I was appalled. He is 6 years old and this teacher is already saying he has no musical talent? No wonder he came home crying! This from a boy who is actually really very keen to learn the Piano and practices every chance he gets, despite being so young. I certainly couldn't see anything wrong with him yesterday but the unprofessionalism of this teacher has got me very very angry.

The school in question is a very good private fee paying one, and I suppose they hired this woman because of her qualifications rather than her ability to teach children. The parents didn't complain because the school is very close knit and they didn't want to be seen as trouble makers. But this remark has seriuosly affected this kid, and he's so lovely, honestly, and how can someone possibly make such a judgement on a child of 6??? Should she really be teaching young children? Surely this can't possibly be right...!!!

This is shocking but it's also fairly common. I've lost count of the times students have told me they've had their confidence shattered by heartless music teachers to the extent they've never wanted to pick up an instrument again.

This father absolutely should report this woman; she could damage other kids the same way she's damaged this poor child, and she shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Surely bringing this out in the open wouldn't jepoardise his relationship with the school? He's paying fees after all, what is the place - soem kind of mafia? Are people really that spineless and afraid to rock the boat? What does he think could happen? That the school go: 'oh my goodness, you've criticised one of our instrumental teachers, we're going to have to let your son go'? Or: 'we're going to have to freeze you out from now on'?

For heavens sake! Don't people care about exposing injustice any more? Apparently not.

It looks as though you will have a lot of confidence to rebuild, poor lad. What an unpleasant experience for him, and his father too.

I shouldn't worry too much about the teacher. It will come to the notice of the head of music at the school who will no doubt weed out this teacher from among the peris at a suitable opportunity.

I overheard a teacher saying some really tough things to a pupil when my son was at school, and my jaw dropped, - things I would never say in a million years to a pupil. However, my grapevine now tells me that this teacher has been replaced at the school concerned by someone who is just as strict, but much nicer. Most heads of music have their "ears to the ground". (need a new smilie for that one)

I'm pleased you gave the child a chance and that at least now he has the opportunity to learn with you. I'm also pleased it wasn't a pushy difficult parent as many people are quick ot judge.

Hope the child turns out to be very musical and proves it to the school/teacher in question that would be the best outcome for him.

I totally disagree that the poster shouldn't worry about the teacher. Most Heads of Music do not have their ears to the ground at all and are often just happy that the peri turns up on time and does the work. There's a peri in my area who works all over; the number of students she loses every year is legion, and yet she keeps working in all the same schools. Kids are forever telling me how terrifying she is and I hear stories of children emerging from her room in floods of tears. I've lost count of the times I've inherited the last Y7 she has left after starting out with ten at the beginning of the year. It baffled me for years how she manages to keep her work but I've now found out why (it's political so I can't say here). She's also a very good teacher for those who are tough enough to withstand her criticisms and beratings, but is this a price worth paying?

As a peri myself obviously I'm not in a position to complain about her but if I was the parent of a child who was deeply hurt by her I would most certainly make my views known to the Head of Music. Anyway please don't assume that she will eventually be replaced by a kinder teacher - it just may not happen, for a variety of reasons.

Poor lad! And how lucky he is to have found you.
It doesn't just happen to children though. When I thought about going to music college, my then singing teacher tried desperately to talk me out of going: "After all, dear, you are nearer 40 than 20." "Why on earth do you want to go to music college - you'll never make your living from music!"
I quickly found a more positive teacher, went to music college, now earn a good living from music. AND, am now more qualified than Mrs Trytoputmeoff. And guess what? She's now boasting about me - "she used to be one of my students, you know." Moral of the story - a more timid person might well have been put off and never followed their dreams.

Sadly I think this does happen at times and in various different ways. If his son is otherwise happy at the school, or it may not be easy to change schools, then maybe he [b]is[b] reluctant to rock the boat.

I think the father should say something to the school - this is completely unacceptable behaviour from the teacher concerned, and the kid needs to know that his parents will not put up with people treating him in this way. In order for a school to replace a poor teacher, they need sufficient evidence to make their case, and this chap's complaint might set the ball rolling or give them what they need to make a move. Bullying should never be tolerated, no matter what the source.

Good luck with your pupil - I deserves to do well, especially if he is still keen despite that horrible experience.

Quite right - imagination a culture where everyone's afraid to speak out about what amounts to cruelty in case there are (often imaginary) repercussions? We're not living in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia are we? Why on earth would any parent be afraid to speak to a Head of Music and tell them exactly what a peri said to their child, if it caused that child undue pain and hurt?

When my son was at primary school there was a very nasty supply teacher who terrified all the children. Most of the parents seemed reluctant to speak out because they didn't want to 'make a fuss' or whatever. What a load of spineless people! What's the matter with everyone? I went straight to the Head and complained; the teacher was spoken to, and she became somewhat nicer - for a while. After my son left the school I heard she crossed the line again and actually hit a child, whereupon she was permamently fired. No, my speaking out didn't achieve anything much at the time, but perhaps it helped, and I certainly didn't notice any adverse reaction towards me or my son as a result of my having stuck my neck out on that occasion.

My mother was once a refugee from Nazi Germany and had the guts to speak out in public against Hitler at great risk to herself and our family, so I find it hard to understand what we're all so afraid of in this country when it comes to speaking out.

A sensible Head or Head of Music is well-equipped to tell the difference between a justified complaint and a neurotic parent. I think the parent in this case has every right to complain and not fear an adverse reaction. If we all keep quiet in these situations we are actually contributing to them. Do we speak out or keep quiet when people start ranting on about 'all the Poles taking over our country' for example? Or do we take a stand against racism whenever we see it? And against cruelty towards children? What's the point of lauding art and then keeping quiet when we have a chance to make a difference?

I had to fight hard to stop myself hitting my head against the wall when I read this!

This is exactly the attitude that prevails at our school and even our workplace. But it gets worse.

The vast majority never say anything, and this leads to a situation where even those who are supposed to represent us, e.g. our parents association, staff association, unions etc just do their own thing, treat their organisation as their own private club and just want a quiet life.

I tried hard to get a friend to complain after a number of upsetting incidents, but she was terrified at being seen as a 'troublemaker'.

There are both good and bad ways of complaining. Going into the school and demanding to see the Headteacher is not a good idea. It's very easy to get flustered, angry, embarrassed etc. Likewise, letters or emails written when you're angry. The best is a very polite and honest letter to the Headteacher, written and edited over a few days, preferably in an 'official' style, stating exactly what happened and how you feel about it- with absolutely no critiscisms whatsoever! You should never say anything negative about anyone! This means that you cannot possibly be seen as a 'troublemaker' and the Head will not feel they are being told how to run their school and will be thus more inclined to act.

The ball is then in their court.

Steve

You can't make judgements like that on a child of 6. Your anger is totally justified amt.

The good thing is that he's now with a teacher who's going to give him the good tuition he's entitled to, and one hopes that something happens that'll stop his previous teacher upsetting other pupils like she has your new pupil.

Hope all goes well.

Ack! Even if you could tell whether or not this was true in a six year old...even if it is true, does it matter? If a child wants to enjoy the piano, let them enjoy it, even if they are never going to be a concert pianist. There's far far far far far far far more to music learning/teaching than 'getting somewhere'.
Good grief, if we only ever taught things to people who were going to be good at something..."No, you can't take gcse history, you're not going to be a historian."...well, how would anyone ever find out what they were going to be good at?!

That's a disgusting way to behave towards a 6 year old (or any pupil for that matter)

I wonder why these people choose to teach when they plainly don't like the children or else have no way with them at all!

Steve is quite right about the way to go about complaining. I hope they do!

Just a thought - a complaint might carry more weight if the dad gives it few weeks to see how things transpire with you - i.e. if he was able to point out how 'different things are now'. It's good that he had the presence of mind to go and observe lessons for himself, and it's good that the child has got a new teacher, but she will certainly be defending herself if complained about, and it would be good to be able to back the complaint up with the fact that things have become more positive now. It's ridiculous to write off a child so young as having no ability - even if it appears to be true! - it's more likely that he hasn't got enough focus yet to judge his ability, if anything - but be careful before you add weight to his complaint, that her comments weren't simply in response to leading questions from the dad. It's not impossible.

Hope it goes well between you and him - keep us posted!

My 'note of caution' would be to be careful of your own involvement in anything until you've taught the boy for a while! Just in case you end up with egg on your face. Whether or not the dad complains is his perrogative, but if I were you I'd keep my council for the moment! It's most odd that a teacher should be so belligerent (spelling?) with a parent present; most would be on their best behaviour... She may have had difficulties with the child that you're not aware of yet and simply lost her cool when the dad asked her to be more understanding towards what might simply have been unacceptable behaviour. Now please believe that I'm not defending the other teacher; I know nothing about her! I just want to point out that it might not be as black and white as the dad is making it appear, however convincing he may be.

I agree with a lot of what has been said. I would add two things

1 I don't teach 6 year olds - my view is that they are too young for lessons - there may be gifted children who can benefit from lessons but practical experience has taught me that this does not work for me
2 I don't teach young children without an adult being present
This is not just because I am old and male - it is to protect my position and also to have the parent share the learning experience with the child

I would also add that I get a lot of adult pupils who say they were put off by the attitudes of their piano teacher as a child. Their words not mine

Thank you everyone for your replies; for a minute there I thought that this sort of behaviour from a teacher was normal.

I must point out that the father was very diplomatic in all this; when he first telephoned me about lessons, and he told me his son had another teacher before him and it didn't work out, he was very keen to not talk too much about it over the telephone in case things got misconstrued. I knew there was a serious problem because he told me his son went home upset from every lesson, and that the father stopped the lessons once he saw for himself what was going on. But he didn't go into detail.

It was only when I had a cup of tea with his mother, who had tears in her eyes when she told me what had happened, that the gravity of what this 'teacher' said really hit me. Look at the effect she has had on this boy; when I walked in it looked like he thought I would bite his head off, it took me a while to relax him. And his mother sitting in front of a new prospective teacher in tears??? That's never happened to me before, and I can't imagine, as I'm not a parent, how powerless she must feel. She was very keen to make sure he got a nicer Piano teacher than the last one, and she kept saying 'so you will take my son, won't you? He's not a bad pupil? He'll be OK?'... my shock at what happened was clearly evident, as was my concern that it had had this much effect on the family. I still can't get over it; I know I'm a young teacher, but something told me that what happened here was very, very wrong.

I love teaching beginners, because I love to show them how exciting playing an instrument is, that learning music can be fun. And the children are so happy when they are learning. They are some of my favourite pupils, and if anything I learn a lot from them as well as the other way around! I absolutely take all of your points on board, especially the ones abuot me being cautious. But I stand by the fact that you don't have to know the teacher personally to know that what she said was totally out of order, and could have had serious repercussions. I am an outsider in all this; I know that, and I'm also aware of the fact that this teacher has been hired by a lot of fee paying schools to teach their pupils, because she is apparently very highly qualified. But this makes me slightly sad to be honest; I have a Music degree that I worked very hard for, but couldn't afford to go to study my instrument at a music college as I don't have the financial background to support myself. So that had to be shelved and I have to work with what I've got, despite the fact there are prominent teachers in schools and music services who say I'll get more work if I have a postgrad diploma or something. But then there are people like the one I told you about, people who have many letters after their name and are clearly misguided into thinking that they are 'teaching' when what they are doing is actually nothing more than bullying and turning kids off music for life. And it makes me angry, because I know I would never do that, but qualifications mean more than teaching standards. I just don't get it.... I really really don't understand......

In America children generally start at the age of 5 - much younger than here where it's generally 7. I know of a violin teacher in the US who starts a lot of her pupils at 3 (and with no mother present after the first couple of lessons) with huge successes; she's not a Suzuki teacher. Then of course there's the Suzuki method where children often start at 2 but with the mother present of course.

If you start them very young you do have to take the time out to study how children of this age learn, which is certainly different to the post-7 period. From what I know, it involves playing plenty of games, lots of varied activities and keeping lessons pretty short, like 20 minutes. One of the advantages of starting them very young is that they can do incredibly well if all the conditions are right, because playing an instrument can quickly become second nature. But it does need these extra skills from the teacher, and the teacher has to have the time (and inclination!) to accrue these skills. I've been teaching a six-year-old for six months now and it's gone well, but for the record I'd be reluctant to take on anyone younger than that unless I'd done some extra early-years training, or could find a method specifically designed for them. Actually there is one - for violin - but it's American and uses 'half note' and quarter note' terms which could be potentially confusing. For anyone interested it's called Adventures in Violin Land' and is by Sheila Givens.

I thought I was the only person that felt this way... it's a shame there aren't more teachers that feel capable enough to teach this age group. What a benefit it will be! After all, people are always going on abuot how Music is underrated in our schools and in our society... surely that's a good enough reason for more qualified early years music teachers? If you instill the enthusiasm early enough.... not all kids are up to it or want to, but should we really be turning down the ones that are keen? I'm not so sure...

Seriously, I would urge these parents to take this matter up with the school as a matter of urgency, before she does this kind of harm to another child.

When I was at school, a cruel dance teacher completely shattered my confidence with some cruel remarks. I was too devastated to tell my parents but I wish they had known and then talked to the school about it. It could have been put right back then if some action had been taken; ie if subsequently a teacher had taken me to one side and made the effort to restore my confidence, my life could have turned out rather differently. Your musical and dancing skills are so much a part of the deep core of you and for a teacher to pour scorn on either is a crime against humanity in my view. This is particularly true in the case of singing, where one cruel word at a young age can wreck a person's singing voice for life.

If what the parents are telling you is true, and it does seem to be, then I'm at a loss to understand why the parents are hesitating to take the matter up with the school. Tell them they must do it!

NB At the very worst, if they're hiding from you something like this: for example the child is cheeky and naughty, or unable to concentrate, or hyperactive, or anything at all of this nature, for heavens sake he is only six. There must have been a better way for the teacher to deal with it than labelling him as someone with no talent!!! She could have gently told the parents she didn't feel he was quite ready for lessons yet and to come back the following year- it's not rocket science.







It's a funny thing, isn't it - that in England we feel seven is the right age to start, whereas in America they start them at five or less as a matter of course. They also have 'band camp' for musical children in the summer weeks, where thousands of normal kids who just happen to have music lessons go off and play music all day for weeks on end every summer. I spent a few months in the US in my twenties playing in a 42-piece band/orchestra and was quite taken aback by the standard of musicianship over there. Most of the members of the band were American and thought nothing of being able to compose, arrange, sing in harmonies (beautifully in tune) etc etc. It all went back to their early start followed by regular 'band camp'.

Check this out: http://www.sfasu.edu/pubaffairs/pressrelea...007/08-band.asp

One big hmmmm!

I've read this more than once and read the range of comments ... it is really difficult to see why the previous teacher would have been quite so harsh with any child - let alone one so young.

I do teach children of this age - in fact I will take beginners from five if I have space and if they seem ready to learn - although I would add that the first month is always an exploratory one and I make this clear at the start. In most cases if we find the child is not ready, parents and I are in agreement that we leave it a few terms and try later. But it can be well worth this kind of early start if the child is ready and keen - and if you are comfortable teaching this age group.

I don't know what to make of the situation with the pupil and his previous teacher. I would have to ask myself if the parents might be exaggerating? Could they have even partly caused the child's anxiety when he first met you? Certainly if it was as you describe it does seem very wrong - but having met all kinds of parents over the years I am at least partly in sympathy with David's line, and with Dulciana.

She could have gently told the parents she didn't feel he was quite ready for lessons yet and to come back the following year- it's not rocket science.

Yes.

Maggie, the father started sitting in on the child's school lessons because the child was coming home unhappy. The father then saw that the teacher was being inappropriately harsh with the child, who after all was only 6, and unless he was running around the room and/or being rude to the teacher, it doesn't make sense for a teacher to be harsh with a child of this age. Surely the teacher would have pointed out to the father that the child's behaviour was making it impossible for her to teach him if this was the case?

So from what aspiring-music-teacher tells us, it does sound as if the teacher acted inappropriately and unkindly, unless the parents are complete liars - which is always possible but does seem unlikely in this case.

I started lessons at 4 years old with no problems, so I wouldn't necessarily turn away a pupil because they were very young, but I would offer a few weeks trial to see if they were ready for sitting still and listening

I have a few 6 year olds and the youngest has only turned 6. They do very well! On the other hand, I have suggested to another the same age that they wait a bit, so it all depends on the pupil.

Hopefully this child and the parents will relax now with you.

I know it is dangerous to judge someone on a secondhand basis but it amazes me how so many "bad" teacher stories come out of the woodwork on such a topic.

I am now a music teacher, work at Howarths, directing a local am dram show and studying for a MA but when I was a secondary school (I'm 22 now) I was ignored by most of my music teachers and laughed at for suggesting I did a music degree.

If I had not been a stronger person and had encouragement from "proper" musicians and my family I do not think for one second that I would be where I am today - such is the power of these teaching bullies.

I am so glad there is obviously a majority of teachers who think that any behavior that can damage a student of any age is so utterly disgusting

Rant over now - off soap box

I don't think it's a majority; I think all of us would agree on that.

Those of us who are suggesting caution with regard to how the original poster deals with the parents - and what she says to them which might be quoted - are not saying that teachers who damage children should be allowed to continue doing so. What I was saying was that aspiringmusicteacher should keep an open mind for the time being - if for no other reason, to protect herself. If the scenario described turns out to be very differen to the way it was painted to her, she won't want her private statements to the parents used in evidence.

Three things don't add up with me.
1/ The teacher's behaviour in front of the parent. If not exaggerated, then why so negative? She was certainly making no attempt to protect her own standing, and certainly making no attempt to hold onto this pupil.
2/ The child crying incessantly for days after the event. An older child is more likely to do this. Six-year-olds are easily distracted. I wonder how much the parents have contributed to the upset - perhaps unwittingly - by making too much of the whole thing?
3/ Why have the parents not complained? If it was as bad as it sounds I'd have been straight to the Principal's office, having first found a friendly someone to distract the child.

2/ and 3/ are incongruous somehow!

But I could be wrong! I do hope sincerely that things work out for aspiringmusic teacher and her new pupil - all I'm saying is watch what you say - for the time being, anyway!

The reason I don't teach 6 year olds is that in my part of London - the main instigator of lessons is "pushy mum" who wants a child to learn not because they like music but because it looks good on the application for schools to be studying musical instruments

Usually the child has no choice and the parent simply does not understand the connection between practice and improvement, having lessons should be sufficient, the family background may not include an appreciation of Western classical music. It is seen as another skill like maths of chemistry

I have a 9 year old who'se family are Indian Asian who are strong Anglicans. He likes the piano, although he is lazy, but I know he will be forced to play in church when he is skilled enough

the point I find quite interesting is why a six year old is really keen to learn piano when his experience of it is so bad.
Usually the experience of learning a subject is equated the experience of learning from a particular teacher.

I would normally take the story of mother weeping over a cup of tea as truthful...but then, she wasn't there, it was the father who was there, and she could be weeping from the sheer stress of the whole situation.

bet you anything: the father didn't like the teacher, challenged her, and she lost it.

Hopefully the OP will let us know in a few weeks how things are evolving!!

Not necessarily. I think a child is able to distinguish between the subject and a bad teacher. When I was little, I loved music and dreamt of learning an instrument, despite a succession of awful teachers. Our PE teacher was horrible and made swimming lessons a misery. Nevertheless, I loved swimming. I was bullied by a french teacher but went on to learn french.

I suspect that the lad may love the piano so much that his progress under a good teacher will be quite remarkable.

Steve

Yes it's quite possible, I suppose, that the parents are quite pushy - after all they're sending him to a prep school rather than the local state primary. The boy could have come home complaining that the teacher was a bit strict - some teachers are quite strict without necessarily being horrible. The father then asked to sit in on lessons and the teacher could have felt quite intimidated by this, which in turn made her behave in a brusque manner. If the father then challenged her in the lesson then she may well have 'lost it', though she shouldn't have done this in front of the son, and she certainly shouldn't have said what she is supposed to have said.

I too am somewhat baffled as to why the parents haven't gone straight to the school to complain if what happened was really as clear-cut as they say.

What's that got to do with it? Our son spent spent two years in a state school, now he is at a prep school. We're not pushy parents though! Nearly all the parents I come into contact with at my son's school and another prep school I work at aren't pushy either.

I just wanted to add my own story to illustrate the mysteries of the relationship between teachers and young children.

Just after the October half-term my seven-year-old had two bad piano lessons in a row. The first one, I took her in at the same time as the previous parent came to collect her daughter to find the teacher talking out the window to a friend. She clearly felt at fault and kept the first girl for an extra 15 minutes. When I came to pick up my daughter she complained about a whole lot of things including that my daughter wasn't doing things fast enough and was making her run late to which I politely pointed out that she had started late and that that was not my daughter's fault. The following week I don't quite know what happened but when my husband came to pick her up she was standing in the middle of the room, her teacher said she would be seeing the head of the music school because she couldn't teach her anymore and my daughter burst into tears when she had left the room. I was quite traumatised by the whole thing and made an appointment with the head of the music school, although he wasn't actually free when I was until about five days later. All my daughter would say was that it hadn't been a good lesson but that it was just an "accident". She was adament that she didn't want to change teachers and continued practising the pieces she was learning. When I saw the head, he listened to me but said he hadn't heard anything about it from the teacher. He said somewhat apologetically that this particular teacher was inclined to "blow up" and say things she didn't mean and that this could indeed be problematic for young children who didn't necessarily know how much of what she said to take seriously. I was very apprehensive about the next lesson (my daughter wasn't) but it went smoothly and to be on the safe side I made an appointment to see the teacher to explain a bit about how my daughter functions (she suffers from selective mutism and although she is making progress in overcoming it still finds it hard to speak to adults and can withdraw completely when she gets overstressed as she did in the second "bad" lesson). Since then we haven't looked back. My daughter is progressing in leaps and bounds, played two pieces in a pupils' concert at the end of term, she says she loves her teacher and that really her teacher is just like her - she talks all the time and says things she doesn't always mean (this is what my daughter is like at home, not in public).

What I'm trying to say is that it is really hard to understand what is going on in children's minds. My husband and I were more affected by the whole thing than my daughter was and I spent a week saying what an awful teacher my daughter had. I still think that the teacher treated my daughter unfairly but I also now think I did the right thing by letting my daughter continue with the same person.

I agree that this could well have been the case. On the other hand the Father might have made a reasonable approach to the teacher who for whatever reason is under pressure and she lost it.

I'd wait and see how it is in a few weeks and not comment as has been advised. You might also find that whatever the senario before that it isn't repeated with you.

Oh dear, I knew somebody might get offended after I posted it - ho hum.

It's the people who send their primary-aged children to prep school before even trying the local primary who may have a tendency to be on the pushy side of the spectrum, in my view. If these parents have the spare money to send him there, why not live in an area where you can trust the local primary?

I know an awful lot of parents in my neck of the woods and to be quite honest find it odd when parents don't even try the local primary but opt straight for a prep school. It's as if they're saying 'ew, I don't want my child to come into contact with any of the local riff-raff at all thank you very much!'

Sorry and all that but this is what I observe, and in the end I don't think they do their child any favours. I've talked to some of these kids when they've grown up and they often tell me they regret not having had the chance to be schooled with just the normal kids from their area. I do see the problem if you've got the money and live in a very rough area, but then most people with money don't tend to live in those areas do they?

Where I live there are a number of truly excellent primaries yet countless rich parents still opt for the private schools right from the age of 4. I find it weird.

There was another thread about the same pupil where aspiringmusicteacher was wondering if taking on the student would be poaching them.

Unless she's actually poaching them?!? (as opposed to frying them )

People choose to spend their money on different things. Some will have two or three big holidays a year; some will pay for a private education, because they agree with the ethos of the school - or the class sizes, or something important to them. (Obviously those who have loadsa money will do both...) But I'm speaking from N.I. where I don't think private schools are as expensive as in England; the government still provides a certain percentage of the funding which means it's not as far out of the reach of the average person here. With so much moaning going on about the state of state schools, though, I don't think it's surprising that so many choose that option. A parent of a child or children at a private school knows at least that the other parents have a big interest in education and in maintaining standards. I think we've gone a bit here, but I must say that it's unusual for a parent at a private school who has a bone to pick or a complaint to make to miss and hit and hit the wall!

Oops - this was a reply to violinia - two posts up - I forgot to quote!

It's fine, I know people can spend money on whatever they like, but it's a touchy subject isn't it? The percentage of people who can afford send their children to private school is very low, and I think there's something very wrong in a society where parents can buy their way out of what most parents would rather support as a matter of principle or because they have no other choice.

For the record I have many good friends who have sent their children to private school from the earliest - I've made my views clear but no offence has been taken; they admit they did it because they didn't want to 'take the risk'. I also know many people whose children have done really well in the state system and ended up at Oxford or Cambridge. So there!

NB Sending one's children to private school doesn't necessarily mean a 'big interest in education'! Some of the people in my neck of the woods who educate their children privately are in the 'nouveau riche' bracket, and have no real interest in education at all - they just like the status that sending their kids to private school implies - it's a kind of club for them. And there are many, many people who send their kids to state schools who are intensely interested in education!!! I'm also aware that some people struggle and save to send their kids to private school because they want them to have what they feel is the best.

I just struggle with the concept of sending little 4-year-olds to private school when the state schools in the same area are perfectly good, and the intake perfectly middle class! What can these parents possibly be afraid of? I don't get it.

As a parent...

Some teachers actually are harsher with small children than with older children. It seems (to me) that the adult is throwing a tantrum because they can't "get through" to the child.

Why do some adults behave aggressively to small children? Little children don't always react emotionally in the same way as adults, and a bewildered silence when angrily reproved is sometimes interpreted as stony-faced indifference, and a cue for even more yelling and aggressive gestures.

After all, the teacher does not see the cues that tell the parent that something has upset the child - crying, head-banging/self-punishment, nightmares. Yet, even a child as upset as this may say that there is nothing wrong, and that s/he doesn't want to stop lessons. They are not able to think about their experiences objectively or logically.

Since this was probably the first teacher, for both parent and child, the parent was also probably unsure whether difficulties were serious or just teething problems, whether he or the child were in some way to blame, etc etc. I know it took me a ridiculously long time to decide to find my sons a new violin teacher, even when almost all the other young pupils had quit.

As for private education, yes, guilty - after one son was strangled several times at school, as well as being kicked until a bone was broken, beaten with a metal chair, having his school equipment stolen, defaced, and burned...and these are just the "highlights"...yes indeed, we wiped all our savings and sent our other son to a private school. As parents, we do what we can to help the kids in our community still in that school, but I do feel terribly guilty about "buying our way out of trouble"...NOT!

I do have to admit that I've noticed this trend over the last 15 yeqrs or so.

For the record I think most parents should give their local primary a chance unless they live in a very rough area and, perfectly understandably, would rather not send their child to school to be beaten up on a regular basis and have the money to be able to do something about it. I just balk at the phenomenon of so many parents in my area scorning the rather wonderful and very middle class primaries - in most cases it's pure snobbery. So there!

Twenty years ago I worked in a Private school, I was there about 5 years, these attitudes were ceratinly around then and suprised me no end. The other reason some children went there, to avoid being statemented. So instead of receiving the support they needed for any learning difficulties they were left to flounder.

I've no problem with fee paying education we haven't ever considered it (my husband wouldn't be for it) and we don't live in the best of areas. We did make sure our girls got the a decent Primary and a good Secondary school though. Like Violinnia I have to wonder why people choose it from age 4 when there are perfectly good alternatives locally.

I have a friend who opted for private education for their daughter from the age of 4. She knows my views and we often discuss it. The parents are both educated to post-graduate level, their house is full of books and they are extremely erudite and culturally aware, yet they still didn't want to what they call 'take the risk' with their daughter and put her through the state system. But where we live - what risk? The child would have been virtually guaranteed to move straight into top sets and do really well. She'd also have had the chance to mix with boys, rather than spend most of her waking hours from the ages of 4-16 in a totally boy-free environment!

For the record I know dozens of very similar families who opted for state primaries and as you'd expect, their daughters have done extremely well at primary school and moved straight into top sets when they get to secondary school. At GCSE they generally got 10 A's and A*'s; they did well at A-level and went on to university. Amongst my friends with totally state-educated daughters, several have gone on to study medicine with several more going to Oxford and Cambridge.

For the record I happen to know some privately educated kids who've 'gone off the rails' after school and dropped out completely, so what exactly is this terrible "risk" of which my friend speaks?

I just don't get it.

Well, yes, although even primary school in this NOT top-drawer area wasn't totally free of violence, problems didn't escalate until the older kids in the year turned 11 or 12. Despite some ups and downs, I don't regret sending my kids to the local primary school - they might have gained some other things at a private school, but they gained a lot from public education at that point too.

I've met a few private school parents who say that they pay so that they can feel free, as paying customers, to ignore any "demands" made on them or their children (you know, homework and stuff)!!! The first time I heard that line, I was surprised too.

The reasons why so much changes after age 12 are complex, but I think part of it is the old, old, problem of having kids in school who are failing educationally and being given no other area to succeed in, who have lots of reasons to stir up trouble, and who are in an environment (both legal and social) that disassociates them from responsibility from their acts.

Homeschooling is not "legal" in Japan, you can't get any recognition for education below high school level unless you are registered with a school, so kids attending violent schools are in the situation of being legally required to go to school every day and let themselves be attacked by kids who (in Japan anyway) literally need to set fire to the school (happened at our local school) or kill somebody (happened at the neighbouring school) before the school authorities act to prevent anything further happening.

If school authorities will not act until their students are killed, I won't be blaming anybody for voting with their feet and their wallets.

When my daughter was 4 our local state primary which has a good reputation was going to have a reception class of 38. This was just before the government introduced class size limits. Therefore we opted for the local prep school which has a class size of 20.

The trouble with kids is - parents. This is one of the reasons I do not teach 6 year olds. It is the parents attitude to the teacher as some form of servant who is at their beck and call

Because I can get a flow of willing adult pupils who pay my rates - are generally very pleasant to deal with - who are keen and want to progress and do not bring mum or dad along to cause trouble that I encourage that form of pupil. I do not want the sort who scream at me because I tell them their daughter is not ready to take grade 1 piano as yet because she needs it to get into a better school

I can do without that kind of hassle

For God's sake, it's not that bad!
I get on with all my parents, and in over a decade I've only been highly aggravated by one or two children! My only issues have (twice) been insufficient notice for termination of lessons. Let's have some positive posts here! I'm beginning to see dcmbarton's point about what on earth readers here would think about attitudes within music teaching!
(Edit - David got in before me - this post wasn't in direct response to him!)

I've never had a pupil's parent scream at me... they'd soon regret it if they did.

I think I've been quite lucky. If I need to explain exams to them, they listen and seem to take it on board. No one yet has asked me to enter someone where I felt they weren't ready.

All 3 of my children started out in state primaries, We now have 2 in Private education. Having been state educated (and having taught for 10 years in an excellent state comprehensive), I struggled with the private school issue but... when the head of the local infants school told us that if she were in our position she would remove our son and educate him in the private sector, we realised that state schools aren't suitable for all children. My son has dyspraxia but is rather good at reading. As he wasn't "globally weak" he couldn't get the help he needed. The small class size has been perfect for him. In the state sector his lovely confident personality was being eroded. Now he is the confident child he used to be before he started school.
Sure, I see some pushy parents at the independent school... but I see more pushy parents at the local primary school. I see some parents at state school who would complain at the slightest issue and yes, some of these do exist in the independent sector, but no more than in any school. Yes... there are also many parents in the independent sector who don't like to complain, don't want to rock the boat. It isn't that surprising this father hasn't complained. Many choose private education for their children because they are attracted by the small class sizes, not because they like to complain!!! This is the 4th year I have had children in the independent sector... and I have only complained once... this term, about an English teacher. I am very reluctant, due to my personality to complain and complain no more to the head of the independent school than to the head of the state primary.
It is difficult to make sweeping statements about privately educated and state educated children. Some of the parents at the independent school are plumbers, decorators, farmers, hospital workers... ordinary parents. Some of the state school children have parents who are doctors, dentists, lawyers etc.

Have you tried them grilled?

Edit: someone else beat me to it.......

I don't want to butt in on the teachers forum, but all this talk about "having" to pay for private education because of bullying in comprehensives seems a bit silly. If you were beaten up at school, you went to a horrible school - not necessarily a comprehensive school! My brother, sister and I have never had any problems at our comp, whilst one of our cousins was brutally bullied for years at her exclusive private all girls school. Ok with my cousin it was verbal bullying, but she says that there's a lot of violence at the boys school across the road. Another boy I met at my Oxford interview went to a very exclusive boys school, and was beaten up daily after it was discovered that he was gay - but the gay people I know at my school have never had any hassle.

I'm not trying to say that all comps are better than all private schools - but I don't like the implication that all private schools are better than all public schools.

Sorry, I know it's off topic...
To the original poster - if this actually happened, it's appalling... I suppose you'll have to wait and see what the student is like - I'm sure you wouldn't blow up like the other teacher apparently did, no matter what.

I agree with Clari Nicki - I don't think one can make sweeping statements. I reckon pushy parenting is evenly distributed across all income brackets and amongst those who prefer the state sector and those who opt for private schools.
As regards the astronomical cost of private schooling, the Charities Commission is going to insist on more bursaries and scholarships being made available - otherwise the schools' charitable status will be removed. However, the demand for these may be high so the entrance exam will be tough - especially for the very academic schools. (Not that it isn't already at some public schools and for Eton the boys have to pass a preliminary test aged 11 before they can take Common Entrance).