I have a new pupil who has started on the grade 2 jazz syallubus aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! I have only ever played classical. What are these scales and why are they used in jazz instead of normal scales?

Don't panic! As a classically trained pianist I hadn't come across modes either until fairly recently. They are actually OK, interesting, easy to understand and apply. There are other threads about this.
Modal scales are formed from various different patterns of semitones and tones (like the standard major and minor) and each has a characteristic tonality (again like major and minor). Originally used in early church music and now used in jazz a lot.

See Dolmetsch music theory website for more details.

I've done a few things like playing a simple tune in a major key eg 3 blind mice - covers all 7 notes, then alter the notes according to the modal scale and it gives you (and your student) a feel of how the mode operates. You can find a lot of folk tunes etc that are modal.

Lots of knowledgeable folk on the forums who know all about modes..be along soon I expect!


Edit : Oops, another family member was still logged on, this is actually SueHM replying!!

The following was one of the replies I had when I asked a question about the Dorian scale...




You could try listening to how all the different modes sound on http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id91_en.htmll

Without wanting to be offensive, if you don't know what these scales are and how to use them in improvisation you're not in a position to be teaching jazz clarinet. It would be like someone who couldn't read music but played well by ear trying to teach classical clarinet.

I think thats a bit harsh. If Carl is an experienced teacher (or even if he isn't), it won't take him long to suss out modal scales, certainly enough to stay ahead of a grade 2 student. Being a good teacher doesn't necessarily mean having an encyclopaedic knowledge.

Thanks for that, the reason for posting was to see what I could find out. Playing any scale from memory shouldn't be a problem to anyone once it is learnt. This pupil has lost interest due to his teacher not turning up. I will steer towards what I know gradually but in the meantime try to regain his interest

True - the construction of modal scales isn't difficult, but how about why they're important in jazz? Functional harmony and the construction of chords, the importance of the ii-V-I progression, analysing a chord sequence so you know what your scale choices are and why, voice leading, picking out guide tones etc

I should think you can teach grade 2 jazz clarinet without knowing any of that but you won't be able to begin to instil the understanding of why you're learning these elements that a good jazz teacher will - you'll just be teaching the bare minimum to get through the exam which is something I thought was generally agreed to be "not a good thing"

Why is it that the consensus of opinion on these boards seems to be that non-singers shouldn't teach singing, that recorder teachers should be recorder specialists (neither of which I disagree with), but that its perfectly acceptable for someone to teach jazz when they're only one page ahead of the person they're teaching?

I have to say I totally agree with TSax here - but in this case, Carl was thrown in at the deep end with a pupil who was being taught jazz at school and was bored and Carl just agreed to take him on to try and regain his interest. He will probably end up steering him more towards Pamela Wedgwood type stuff

I apologise Carl.

My reading of your first post was that you wanted to know about the scales etc because you were intending to continue teaching this student along the jazz route. Finding out about what he does know while steering him in a direction you're comfortable teaching seems to be an eminently sensible thing to do.

No I wanted to find out more for my own curiosity not to be able to teach it but to be able to play those scales etc myself! Then move towards what I can teach

I was scared stiff when my daughter took Grade 3 Jazz Flute in the summer. She hadn't had any Jazz tuition and although her Teacher did have some understanding of what was required from her own experience in Swing Bands she would admit to not being an expert. We were both on pins waiting for the result.

If your pupil is keen enough he might be able to learn how to improvise with a couple of books and by listening to Jazz Music. There are several books for Flute like James Rae Jazz Zone and books of riffs. I suspect there are similar ones for Clarinet.

Hope you're not offended Carl by a parent sticking their nose in?

Without wishing to be cheeky why not see this as an impetus to investigate the jazz syllabus and jazz itself, by attending one of the excellent workshops the AB hold on a regular basis around the country? If it sparked your interest you could add a whole other string to your bow and be twice as likely to hold on to this new pupil longterm if jazz is his main thing!

Hi, thanks for that great suggestion, I have booked up for the 4 day course with jazz G 1 at the end of it. It's on 4 seperate Sundays starting in Feb in Manchester. Is anyone else going from here?


No not offended at all, it's nice to hear all suggestions from everyone. Thank you

Oh wow - fantastic! Have a brilliant time!!!

I once had a teacher who claimed to be able to teach jazz piano, but didn't know what a bridge was (i.e. the B in AABA).

I hope Carl won't mind me saying that he passed his Grade 1 Jazz Clarinet with a very respectable merit. Well done Carl!

I always find it a dubious pursuit for classical teachers to try and teach 'a bit of jazz' as if its something straight forward. Thankfully the ABRSM offer some great jazz taster classes for the uniaitiated and with study it is possible to get grips with the basics of jazz and go on to teach it to some level or other.

Thank you Deborah, I got 124 which considering I was concentrating more on the recital for last Saturday than the jazz, I was really pleased

Well done, Carl.

I'm awaiting my own flute Grade 1 on Sunday with trepidation. The London course started before the Manchester course but is finishing later.

I've been relieved to find that the courses the ABRSM run are geared towards classical teachers who want to get an understanding of jazz terms and practice. They've given us more theory than we would need at Grade 1 level, but that's mainly because our knowledge of harmony is generally rather higher than the average Grade 1 pupil's. It's been a really worthwhile course, and I now feel equipped to begin exploring some of the very basic jazz material around with a knowledge of how the scales and chords work.

I might even think about working towards piano Grade 1 at some point.

I agree with you about the course, it was very worthwhile. I was thinking I might do Grade 1 flute at some time!

Well done, Carl. Good luck Andante