Sorry if it's already been mentioned here about bowing...I'm new to the strings forum as I don't actually play any stringed instrument!!

Basically, for my GCSE composition, I've written a piece with a violin in it...my teacher has looked at it, and said that to improve it, I should add up-bows and down-bows. Now, she explained to me what these meant and I understood, but now I've got home and have started to try to add them, and realised I really don't understand where to put the bowing marks on the score and where they'd be effective...

If anyone could give me any idea on anything related to this I'd really appreciate it!!

Thanks

Laura

I'm not sure if this will be of use, but I'll try! Do you have an up-beat at the start? It would make sense to have that as an up-bow as down-bows tend to be stronger, which would make sense for the first beat of the bar. I think I'm right in thinking that accents sound better when played as a down-bow. Anywhere a phrase starts before the first beat of the bar could be an up-bow too. If there's anywhere specific you want to know what bowing to suggest, if any, it might help if you could explain it a bit.

Thanks for your post!! I get it a little bit more now!!

What I still don't understand, though, is do you put an up-bow/down-bow on every phrase, or every note, or...somewhere else!?!?! I think most of my phrases start on the first beat of a bar and are about a bar or two long...

You normally assume that up-bows alternate with down-bows unless it says otherwise. Sometimes you might want (say) two consecutive up-bows because the next (third) note is strongly accented and needs to be a down-bow. In that case you would mark the second note as an up-bow.

But remember that for a nice legato effect you can play two or more notes with the same bow (all up or all down). This is called a slur, and you mark it with a phrase mark (curved) over all the notes.

Oh yes, I've included the slurs...so, sorry just to clarify, I'd put an upbow at the beginning of each phrase or slur if, say, I want the whole phrasey slur thing (!) to be an upbow?

As you can see I'm a complete violin virgin hahaha!! Sorry if I'm acting like a complete idiot!!!

Yes, that's right.

Don't worry, I wouldn't know where to start if I had to write for trombone!

You could, but it isn't really necessary if the preceding note (or slur) was a down bow.

Okay that's great!!

Thanks for your help Miss Ross and Primrose!!

Although if your teacher was a string player she would know that we frequently ignore printed bowing, changing them and adding or subdividing slurs and generally doing our own thing..... It is more useful to put in phrasing and articulation and leave most of the bowing to the player; either it will be obvious and so unecessary, or there will be more than one valid bowing depending on all sorts of other factors, and different players will make different choices.

However I realise this is for an exam and not the real world so you had better do as your teacher recommends!

My teacher does play the violin, and yes she did mention what you've said...but she said it would be good to write bowing to get a higher mark and to show that I've really thought about how the piece should sound.

I think it is very difficult for a non strings player to get a feel for bowing. Some points have been mentioned but in general the following apply, although rather simplified.

If you want an important note slightly accented at the start then it should be a down bow.
For this reason a violinist will normally try to do down bow on the first beat of the bar where possible (although bar after bar of detached quavers in 3/8, and similar passages this obviously doesn't work so the player will aim for down bow at the phrase beginnings and other important notes).
Down bow tends to be stronger than up but it's a great over simplification as a fast upbow can be loud and has a particular quality of it's own.
You are generally louder at the heel (the end where you hold the bow) than at the tip so up bows are easier when you want the sound to swell and downbows tend to fade slightly after the strong start.

Studying this might help. It is a bit extreme due to the nature of the piece but it is probably easier to see the difference in sound when it's a bit exagerated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKHQ36NOxzk

When marking bowing the default is up follows down obviously so you only need to mark where you need the player to deviate from this or to emphasise an important effect

And, as has been said, whatever you mark you will be ignored as often as not!
Best of luck

My teacher so far (have been learning for a year and am at grade 3 level) has been teaching me to RELIGIOUSLY stick to the bowing instructions written on the music score....
when I got together with another forum member I found that her teacher ALWAYS changes some or most of the bowing on the score to what she thinks might be nicer.
This was driving me mad as I am not used to this and seeing all that 'bowing' marked in pencil all over the score was confusing me!!!
Don't know why my teacher has taught me to religiously stick to it, I never thought about questioning it as I never knew you could do any different, I'll ask him at my next lesson if I remember. Maybe he was going to talk about it one day....

That is really tricky, if you don't play a stringed instrument.
Basically (and correct me if i'm wrong) these tend to work:

1st note of bar/phrase: Down
Accented note: Down
Upbeat: Up
Triple stopping (three notes at once): Down


If you have a dotted rhythm section, you can "hook" the bowing: 2 downs, 2 ups , 2 downs etc.
Obviously end slurs at the end of a phrase...
For very emphatic bits you can do repeated downbows
You can have "staccato slurs" (just two notes on the same bow) if you don't want a legato slur but still need to make it fit...

As I say, these are very fluid and possibly wrong - just what I've picked up from ensemble playing.
Good luck!

Put a down bow sign for the first beat of the first full bar. If you have an anacrusis then you'll need an upbow for the last beat of the anacrusis so that the first full bar starts with a down bow. After that you'll only need to put bow signs in as and when you need to, ie

You want them to play two or more up bows in succession for musical reason

A bar or a phrase ends on a down bow and you want the next note to be played with a down bow. And vice versa (a bar or phrase ends on an up bow and you want the next phrase or bar to start with another up bow).

Generally speaking put a down bow sign where needed and where you want a stronger beat emphasised, and put an up bow sign where needed and where the note is an up beat - like the last beat in a bar, or the second beat in a 4/4 bar.

Have a look at some violin music and it'll all start to make sense. The French call a down bow 'tirer' which means 'pull' and an up bow 'pousser' which means 'push' - this may help you remember which one is which.

Good luck!

Also bear in mind that bowing can vary with style - if the music is heavily stressed on the off beat (as is the case in traditional Irish music) then it's standard practise to play the first beat of a bar on an upbow, leaving the downbow for the accent, then to link notes by threes (if you're playing in four) or twos / threes (if you're playing in six) with frequent slurs across the bar lines to make it swing.

Check out other compositions in a similar style for phrasing ideas for your strings piece.

My favourite aphorism about bowing came from Christopher Adey:* "It doesn't matter which way the bow is travelling; it's which bit of it is on the string". The point of this is that down-bows sound stronger when they start at the heel, and up-bows weaker when they start at the point. Also, the natural way to crescendo through a long note or a phrase is with an up-bow, and for diminuendo a down-bow. Of course, the best players can do it the unnatural way.

Some other points:

1) Whereas in wind and brass parts slurs indicate phrasing, in string parts they are interpreted as bowing unless there are clear instructions to the contrary. Some composers use them for both, presumably with the shorter slurs indicating the bowing and the longer ones the phrasing, but this looks very cluttered and is not easy to read.

2) The louder the music, the faster the bow will be moving (usually) so the shorter the phrases that can be played in one bow. Conversely, if you want your strings to play ppp, sostenuto, put long phrases under one bow, especially in orchestral parts, where very quiet string playing by a large string section makes a magical sound. The conductor may need to insist on the original bowing: many teachers assume that their pupils will play only solos and chamber music, so don't teach the very slow bowing that can be used only in the orchestra, and many amateur players have never learnt how slowly the bow can be moved. This may be the reason for all those pencil bowings on your part.

3) In at least one of his symphonies, Sibelius splits string sections into two, both playing the same notes, but changing bows at different places, so as to give very long, seamless phrases.

* Ex-Halle violinist and very experienced conductor, especially of amateur and youth orchestras. To learn about conducting and organising these, read his book "Orchestral Performance".

Not entirely sure this is the case... are you thinking of a specific type (slide reels or something)?
You wouldn't happen to be familiar wiht Irish music would you?

Do you mean slides (a type of jig, rather than a reel?) - in either case, slides aren't stressed on the off-beat as there isn't really a perceptible off beat in them. Hornpipes and reels have an off-beat stress (hornpipes more noticeably so than reels where it's more of a lilt given from bowing by threes within a four structure - kind of a 'and one two THREE and one two THREE' feeling.) - I've never heard of a slide reel and can't see what structure it would have, but I may be mistaken.

Yes, I'm familiar with Irish music (I think I said so in my original post) - I play and sing it almost exclusively (I'm also, since very recently, the singer in a large touring Irish music and dance show).

I see you're a folkie! What kind of music do you play on the folk scene?

Allan

Sorry - I've been listening to the Capo Slide Reel, and couldn't think of any other examples...
Apologies also due to the fact that you're right - a lot of Irish music does have an off-beat stress. I'm knee--deep in jigs at the moment, which are omstly on the beat.
Ooh - which Irish music & dance show would this be? I only found the end of this thread at the time...

I tend to play Irish fiddle music, and sing English folk songs (though not particularly well): I've only done a little busking, and I'm in a scratch folk group... I play in a few classical ensemlbes, but love folk. As my signature says, I know about 40 tunes off by heart, so session playing is pretty good fun (just keeps going for ages). What do you play?

I've PM'd you!