i have added a music education course in university this term and it is a training of Kodaly and Orff teaching methods. it is such a good course isn't it? but the thing is that i don't know much about them and i really want to prepare for the class so that i don't look stupid(it is designed for year 2 student and i am year 1)
any experts out there can offer me informations?

Sorry - i can't help you but I just thought I'd ask in the same thread (if you don't mind!) whether there are any Kodaly courses run for adults/non-students in the south-west?

Hi staccato - I'm afraid I don't know of any Kodály courses in the south-west. We have a big problem trying to cover all areas of the country. However, if you can ever gather together enough people to make it financially viable to do, we can probably find you a tutor for the day. It's what noodle did in Belfast in 2005 - and it was a great day and has led to other courses being run there.

Pianoandflute - I don't know a huge amount about Orff - you will probably get good information from googling it. It was developed by the composer Carl Orff and is very rhythm based - quite a lot of work with pitched (and unpitched) percussion and improvisation - also movement. I'm afraid it's never floated my boat but - as with all approaches - when taught really well can achieve some fantastic results - and anything which develops general musicianship is A Good Thing!

Zoltán Kodály was also a composer - as well as ethnomusicologist, philosopher and educator. He was living at a time of re-birth of interest in national identity and, along with Béla Bartók, collected much Hungarian folk music. Hungary at that time was heavily dominated by Austro-German culture and Kodály was a pioneer in reawakening interest in national folk music.

He wanted to bring music to as many people as possible and to make Hungary a musical nation that was proud of its folk heritage. He realised that the best way to do this was through using the voice as the primary instrument. He was deeply impressed by the tonic solfa system that had been developed in the UK by John Curwen in the 19th century as well as the rhythm name system developed in France by Paris/Gallin/Chevé. He realised what powerful tools these could both be in the teaching of music (he visited the UK in the 1920s and was amazed that the 'man in the street' could sight-sing because he had learned solfa at school!). Kodály and his students developed many techniques to use with these pitch and rhythm tools, combined with a deep understanding of the three stages of learning.

He believed that a musician should have a well-trained ear, well-trained mind, well-trained heart and well-trained fingers - and that if the development of one of these forged ahead of the others then the student would have difficulties (he was horrified that his students at the music academy were very whizzy on their instruments but couldn't hear the music in their heads before they played it).

Argh, I'm writing an essay! Sorry!!! If you search on this site you will find an article I wrote in the May 2003 issue of Libretto entitled 'The Kodály Experience' - that should give you some more info.

Please do ask again if there's anything I can be more specific about.

Sorry about the essay, guys...

Just being a bit lazy here, haven't googled yet, but I am off to Budapest with my choir in May - I suppose there must be some good 'Kodaly' places to visit - any tips?

'Twas a good essay, and informative. I, for one, certainly didn't know about the four things that Kodaly thought should go hand-in-hand, without one forging ahead of another.

Yes - there's Kodály's house and I remember Janexxx posting a rather fetching photograph of her sitting coyly on Kodály's knee (well, a statue of him and his knee). I have to, somewhat shamefacedly, admit that I haven't visited his house but one of my students has...

So perhaps Google Is Your Friend!

New to me too. What did he mean about the well-trained heart - is this referring to expressive qualities in music/that sort of thing?

Yes, also the aspect of being a humanitarian (which Kodály was) and caring about others, developing one's own character and emotions...developing ones own musical gifts and sharing them with others...satisfying each human's need for musical expression.

Not totally related, but one of my guiding beacons is this:

'A man who has talent is required to cultivate it to the highest degree, so as to be of the greatest possible use to his fellow human beings...real art is one of the most powerful forces for the uplifting of mankind and he who renders it accessible to as many people as possible is a benefactor of mankind.'

'...mankind will live the happier when it has learned to live with music more worthily. Whoever works to promote this end, in one way or another, has not lived in vain.'

Ah! Good stuff..

Have Googled - I think a trip to the Museum / Institute is definitely called for!

Thanks, Cyrilla

No probs. People often have a perception that 'Kodály' is all about handsigns and solfa - but that's not what's under the skin of the whole thing...

Now the Kodály Institute I DO know something about and it's well worth a visit if you have a bit of time - Kecskemét is about an hour away from Budapest - gorgeous, gorgeous place. One of my students is studying there for the year at the moment.

It's a pity that art for art's sake is not more cherished in our society. Not a very constructive addition to the thread by me, I'm afraid - just an observation.

Starts planning alternative tour itinerary.... I'm sure the choir can cope without their accompanist for a day... !

we sing a hungarian dancing song in school which i think is by kodaly....its my favourite song we do...you get to shout HA at the end! very exciting!

Kodály was a very good (and, IMHO, underrated composer). His Esti dal (Evening Song) is utterly haunting and beautiful...

Harry White: The Kodaly method seems really interesting, particularly as a way of raising achievement perhaps even at A level: but to what extent to you think it is actually relevant to today's students? Surely the primary progressive element behind Kodaly's technique was that it was based upon Hungarian folk music, therefore allowing children from more humble backgrounds to learn musical skills through a mode that was relevant to them within a social context where music was the territory of the Bourgeoisie. To the 21st century western student, these sound worlds/experiences that the Kodaly tools are based on are irrelevant, thus they could be alienated from the very beginning. Without making the experience 'real' to students, perhaps in teaching Kodaly we are going against the very principles which inspired the great man to formulate the methodology in the first place?.............

It's not based on Hungarian folk music when taught in other countries, I believe - for example in the classes I take, we use English, American and Canadian folk tunes, various solfa exercises etc and Cyrilla herself has written an excellent book making teaching it in today's context with children in schools perfectly accessible (correct me if I'm wrong about this Cyrilla).

Details would be welcome. I've been reading up on this and the only quarrel I have with it is that the exercises sound, well, Hungarian.
If someone has written these out in more familiar idioms then bring it on.

Ah, well then Cyrilla would be your best bet for that I'd say.

I've sung a fair few Canadian and American tunes as well as some English ones in my lessons with her.

Thanks Cyrilla! I'll try to remember that the next time I have a hard day and come home thinking "Is it really worth it?"

There are a lot of popular misconceptions about the Kodály approach - one being that it is a prescriptive 'method'. It is more a set of principles and a way of teaching using the best tools and techniques and based on the educational tenet of unconscious learning/conscious learning/practice and reinforcement.

Harry, it can raise achievement far BEYOND A-Level!

The other common misconception is that you have to use Hungarian music! Kodály was very firm that different countries should use their OWN musical heritage - of course this doesn't mean that you have to ONLY use the music from your own country to learn from.

mel2, what 'exercises' have you been reading up on? Yes, Kodály did write quite a lot of educational material, some of which is based on Hungarian folk music so DOES sound somewhat alien to our ears. However, many Kodály teachers don't use these at all in their teaching. And it depends HOW you use the exercise, too...I'd be happy to discuss this with you by PM - if I can help at all with your question, please just let me know.

And, Harry, I'd be horrified if I thought that my aim was to 'alienate' students with 'irrelevant' sound worlds!!! (How does one define one 'sound world' as more 'relevant' or 'irrelevant' than another??? Should we not, as music educators, be OPENING our students' ears and minds???)

Simply because 'Kodály' is not a method, means that the teacher can make it totally relevant and meaningful to the student.

Kodály opens up a whole new world..I was singing Bach and Palestrina last week with a lot of other students...

You are more than welcome to come and watch my classes (or become a student !) and judge for yourself whether or not you think my students have been 'alienated'...

C if I might add to this - I think Kodaly's Vision went far beyond the perimeter of the musical box. He had his head switched on regarding the well-being of the Whole Person....

Bagaly x

Bagály, you're so right...

Hi Cyrilla.

I've been reading 'Kodaly's Principle in Practice' by Erzsebet Szony (1973) but it was more about the reasons for using the Kodaly method than a breakdown on how to use it and therefore not as helpful as I had hoped.

I'm perfectly convinced of the validity and benefits of the method; I remember taking part in classroom solfege and I kept some of the sheets we were given and still have them; I suppose they would be from Kodaly's 33 (or was it 333?) exercises. But that was done for A-level. And they sounded Hungarian.

A few years ago when I had a some piano pupils I would do a simplified form of this as part of their lessons to introduce some aural training but I didn't know, reading this book recently, if there were any other exercises based on more Western music that would be a little more familiar. I confess I haven't gone into this too deeply yet and therefore don't know if our Western folk tunes are based on pentatonic scales and if not, whether it matters.

I suppose I ought to sign up for a course but at the moment I'm just reading around the teaching dip submission questions. If there is some material pertaining to this kind of learning then I'd be most interested to have details of it.

Ah, thanks for the info, mel2!

Yes, you're right, there's no real substitute for going on a course (or ten!). And there aren't really many books on 'how to do it' because it IS such an individual thing...I suppose the nearest there are are two American publications - 'The Kodály Method' (title makes me SCREAM because it's NOT A 'METHOD'!!!!!) by Lois Choksy and 'Kodály Today' by Michéal Houlahan and Philip Tacka.

The exercises you did were probably from Kodály's '333 Reading Exercises' and yes, some of them are based on Hungarian folk songs (many of which are pentatonic - all of the 333 are pentatonic melodies).

Kodály training DOES normally start with pentatonic music, for a variety of reasons. There are not many ENGLISH folk songs/playground games that are pentatonic, but a lot of Scottish, American (in particular Appalachian) and African music is. It's one of the big tasks of any Kodály teacher to seek out new songs and new civilisations (oops...beam me up, Scotty )...er, as I was saying, to find song material through which you can teach various tonesets/intervals/rhythm elements and so on. So I'm sure that you can find material that would be useful and appropriate for your piano pupils.

The BKA's 'Springboard' course is something that you might consider doing in the future - it's a 3-module course leading to a Certificate in Music Education (Kodály), accredited by the University of Surrey. One of the aspects of the course is learning song analysis and also discovering how many different things one song can be used for.

Btw, Erzsébet Szonyi was one of the examiners for my Advanced Diploma...VERY scary lady!!!

Do let me know if I can help further!

Thanks Cyrilla - that's given me plenty to think about.

I still can't understand why it isn't a method though..... ignore me - it will become apparent eventually, it just usually takes me longer than other people.

Just wondered if anyone had composed or gathered together an English 333 to save me the trouble.


Edit: Many Happy Returns!

Thanks for the birthday wishes, mel2!

Well...a 'method' rather implies a laid-down set of rules...difficult to explain, really (especially as I'm so tired my brain really isn't functioning properly)...it implies a very rigid way of doing things that ALL teachers would follow, and - as I said - there are Kodály teachers who wouldn't use Kodály's own compositions at all...don't know if that makes sense or helps at all .

I think there are a lot of the 333s that you can definitely use and that don't 'sound Hungarian'. Do you have the book? They were very carefully written in order to teach/practise particular concepts/intervals/form etc. And you can do SO much with them! eg perform with an ostinato/tap the rhythm in canon/sing in canon/sing and play in canon/sing backwards/sing a phrase aloud, a phrase in your head...

All Kodály teachers gather their own material that they like and that works well for them..but, no, there isn't (to my knowledge) an 'English 333' - although if you look at David Vinden's 'Songs for Singing and Musicianship Training' there are lots of songs that you can use in a similar way.

Thanks again Cyrilla. That's one noted for the shopping list - sounds like just the thing.

I should say that I have nothing against Hungarian scale patterns and melodies and would be happy to graduate on to exercises from the 333 (I don't have the book, just some printed sheets but I would buy it if I ever found it) but it struck me that it would be more comfortable to start a pupil off with their native rhythms and inflections.

I had no idea about the singing in canon or with an ostinato - there's a lot to this isn't there?

YES!!!

It's a bit like an inverted pyramid...

And, yes, as you say, you should of course start people off with the 'native rhythms and inflections' with which they are familiar - as I think I said in a previous post, Kodály felt very strongly that each country should use its own folk music as the starting point.

Although I do feel very strongly about building up real skills with the pentatonic scales first (and most of our folk music is diatonic)...can cause a fair bit of head-scratching!

Ok, so forgive my ignorance on the subject, but having read this thread and a few others where it's mentioned I become fascinated by the whole idea, and love his more "holistic" approach to music...I'd love to find out more, so, any suggestions on a good book, for reading about the basics of his ideas maybe? (is there a "My First Kodály Book" in print?? ), or am I better off looking on google or finding a course?

Hello ChevvyChev. I would certainly recommend going on a Kodály course: my first one was a 2-day weekend course which was an ideal introduction. In terms of books, Lois Choksy's The Kodály Method is one I keep going back to and am just reading, for the first time, her book, The Kodály Context. I did find, however, that reading about it was nowhere near as beneficial as going on the course and "doing it for real"...