Just wanting advice on how to teach cross rhythms to pupils - for example triplets against quavers.

Also, how long would people take before introducing the bass clef to a beginner?

I'd say once they've grasped the treble clef. Most young children do the recorder so they are likely to ignore the bass, but I'd say about 3-4 weeks after their first lesson. It gives them the image that they are a real pianist playing with both hands regardless of how easy the piece is. But don't leave it too late or the left hand will be weaker and ignored.

Triplets against quavers? I've just passed grade 8 and I cant even do it....

Get a piece of paper 6 inches wide.
Draw a line half way down.
In the top half draw a line at the half way point.
Similarly mark the bottom half at 2 inch intervals.
Now you can see exactly how triplet against quavers fits together.

QUOTE

for example triplets against quavers

Try saying "three funny men" with a firm crotchet - 2 quavers - crotchet
rhythm several times; (think 3/4 time with 2 quavers on the middle beat).

When you have this firmly in your head, tap as follows:
Both hands on Three
RH on Fun-
LH on -ny
RH on men.

Get this going and you 're tapping three with your RH against two in your LH.

Change round R and L if the music requires the opposite thing. It's easier to do than to describe - I had to type it in twice and double check before it said what I wanted it to!

Maggie

I was taught Cold Cup of Tea to the same pattern ) Think my piano teacher had let a lot of tea go cold teaching me this kind of thing!!

I introduce treble clef in 1st lesson and Bass in 2nd if student is 7 or older - if they're younger it takes longer. Even only 3 notes of each, so they can play with both hands is such a boost

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Sep 22 2004, 02:28 PM)

Tap as follows: Both hands on Three RH on Fun- LH on -ny RH on men. Get this going and you 're tapping three with your RH against two in your LH.

Cool! That's great - I've never been able to do that before - thanks

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the Rhymes, I,ve taught this many times but never with rhymes, I like it.

Maggie

"three funny men"

You're a star.

If only I had known that rhyme when I was doing my grade 6 Mozart Andante amoroso!!

Both the word patterns so far are for where the 3 is the beat you are counting. (i.e. the 2 fits in with the 3- you're thinking the 3 beats and the 2 need to work with this.) Maybe called 2 against 3, I'd guess.

Here's a word pattern I've just made up (thanks for the idea!) for where the 2 is the beat you are counting. (i.e. the 3 fits in with the 2 - you're thinking the 2 beats and the 3 need to work with this.) Maybe called 3 against 2, I'd guess.

Sail to Calais
(think 6/8:) Crotchet, quaver; quaver, quaver,(quaver rest).

All these cross rhythms can be said with numbers of course, the pupil tapping a hand on each knee:

1____2____3____4____5____6____1... <<<Say all the numbers

1_________3_________5_________1... <<<One hand
1______________4______________1... <<<The other hand

...and changing which hand's numbers you say loudly makes the difference between practising 2 against 3 or practising 3 against 2
- be sure to teach pupils to do both at some point, as both are used in music (otherwise they, like me, will always do one much more easily than the other!).

Here's 3 against 4:

1___2___3___4___5___6___7___8___9___10___11___12___1...

1___________4___________7___________10_____________1...
1_______________5_______________9__________________1...

Rhymes: (with 4 dominant) "Hey, soldier, lend a hand!"
(with 3 dominant) "I'm a happy drummer"

Love doing these rhymes! That'll be useful for me too!

On a similar theme...I have (long story) taken on the unenviable task of playing the Chordovox (?) in our Uni's production of Sweet Charity, and have to play 5 against 4! Grrr!
There is the bonus of having instructions in the music such as "pull out all teh stops" and RH: LH: "Play as many notes as you can" !!

**P.S. I'VE EDITED THIS POST BY SWOPPING THE TWO PARAGRAPHS AT THE TOP THAT BEGIN "HERE'S A WORD PATTERN FOR WHERE THE 3..." & "HERE'S A WORD PATTERN FOR WHERE THE 2...". I JUST REALIZED TODAY WHEN USING IT FOR THE FIRST TIME WITH A PUPIL. I'M VERY, VERY SORRY IF YOU'VE PRINTED OUT COPIES OF IT - YOU MIGHT WISH TO JUST PUT A DOUBLE ENDED ARROW BETWEEN THOSE TWO PARAGRAPHS TO FIX IT MORE QUICKLY. THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE "THREE FUNNY MEN" RHYME IS ACTUALLY FOR WHERE THE 3 IS THE BEAT YOU ARE COUNTING, AND THE "SAIL TO CALAIS" RHYME IS FOR WHERE YOU ARE COUNTING THE 2. THE VERSION HERE IS, AS I SAY, NOW EDITED, AND IT IS NOW PROPERLY CHECKED AND CORRECT. MANY, MANY APOLOGIES AGAIN.** EDITED SLIGHTLY FOR CLARITY ON 14-06-05.

Just done this as a sheet for my pupils - here it is in case you want to copy and paste it, or improve it or give suggestions: (Margins Top=0.5cm, Bottom=1.7cm, Left=1.5cm, Right=1cm, and it fits on an A4 page using Arial size 12, and larger titles). Use freely!


CROSS-RHYTHMS

2 against 3 (e.g. 2 quavers against a triplet of 3 quavers):

Below are two possible word patterns for where 3 is the beat you are thinking more confidently and easily, and you are fitting the 2 against it - so you are trying to fit 2 against the 3.


“Three funny men” or “Hot cup of tea”
…think in 3/4: crotchet, 2 quavers, crotchet.

Below is a word pattern for where 2 is the beat you are thinking more confidently and easily, and you are fitting the 3 against it - so you are trying to fit 3 against the 2. You may find you need this less, so if you find yourself accenting this in 3 beats as ‘Sail to Calais’ in 3/4 (like ‘Three funny men’) instead of in 2 beats as ‘Sail to Calais’ in 6/8, you may need to use a 2 against 3 rhyme instead (above).

“Sail to Calais” (for 3 against 2)
…think in 6/8: crotchet, quaver; quaver, quaver, (quaver rest).

All cross rhythms can also be said with numbers (to be sure you’re getting it right!), tapping a hand on each knee:

1____2____3____4____5____6____1... <<<Say all the numbers

1_________3_________5_________1... <<<One hand
1______________4______________1... <<<The other hand

...and changing which hand's numbers you say loudly makes the difference between practising 2 against 3 or practising 3 against 2! - be sure to practise both! Start slow and get faster – but keep it exact. Use the rhymes at the same time to help. Then play 2 against 3 music, etc., slow then faster…

Now for a more advanced one:
3 against 4 (e.g. a triplet of 3 quavers against a group of 4 quavers):

1___2___3___4___5___6___7___8___9___10___11___12___1... <<<Say all the numbers

1___________4___________7___________10_____________1... <<<One hand
1_______________5_______________9__________________1... <<<The other hand

Again, tap these with a hand on each knee...and changing which hand's numbers you say loudly makes the difference between practising 3 against 4 or practising 4 against 3.

Below is a word pattern for where 4 is the beat you are thinking more confidently and easily, and you are fitting the 3 against it - so you are trying to fit 3 against the 4.

“Hey, soldier, lend a hand!”
…think in 12/8: dotted crotchet; quaver, quaver, (quaver rest); crotchet, quaver; dotted crotchet.

Below is a word pattern for where 3 is the beat you are thinking more confidently and easily, and you are fitting the 4 against it - so you are trying to fit 4 against the 3. You may find you use this less.

“I'm a happy drummer” (for 4 against 3)
…think in 3/2: dotted crotchet, quaver; 2 crotchets; quaver, dotted crotchet.

**CORRECTION TO CROSS-RHYTHMS WORKSHEET**

**I'VE EDITED THIS POST BY SWOPPING THE TWO PARAGRAPHS AT THE TOP THAT BEGIN "HERE'S A WORD PATTERN FOR WHERE THE 3..." & "HERE'S A WORD PATTERN FOR WHERE THE 2...". I JUST REALIZED TODAY WHEN USING IT FOR THE FIRST TIME WITH A PUPIL. I'M VERY, VERY SORRY IF YOU'VE PRINTED OUT COPIES OF IT - YOU MIGHT WISH TO JUST PUT A DOUBLE ENDED ARROW BETWEEN THOSE TWO PARAGRAPHS TO FIX IT MORE QUICKLY. THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE "THREE FUNNY MEN" RHYME IS ACTUALLY FOR WHERE THE 3 IS THE BEAT YOU ARE COUNTING, AND THE "SAIL TO CALAIS" RHYME IS FOR WHERE YOU ARE COUNTING THE 2. THE VERSION HERE IS, AS I SAY, NOW EDITED, AND IT IS NOW PROPERLY CHECKED AND CORRECT. MANY, MANY APOLOGIES AGAIN.**

########I've CHANGED it and given it a good overhaul again########

- I've got rid of the attempted distinction between '2 against 3' and '3 against 2'.
- I've corrected the title in the middle to 4 SEMIquavers (oops!)
- Some other bits and bobs changed, and generally explained more simply and clearly.

Do print out and use freely as before.
Do PM me if you want me to email you the original in WORD which has pictures of the notation added.

HERE IT IS:

CROSS-RHYTHMS

2 against 3 (e.g. 2 quavers against a triplet of 3 quavers):

FOR THINKING THE ‘3’:
“Three funny men” or “Hot cup of tea”
[...think in 3/4: crotchet, 2 quavers, crotchet.]
Above are two possible word patterns for where you want to be thinking the ‘3’ (e.g. the triplets), and fitting the ‘2’ with it in the background. [The words include both the ‘3’ and the ‘2’ (so you can fit them together), and the accents fall naturally on the ‘3’ when it is said. The ‘3’ are to be found on the three main crotchet beats, and the ‘2’ is found on the first crotchet and on the second quaver.]

FOR THINKING THE ‘2’:
“Sail to Calais”
[...think in 6/8: crotchet, quaver; quaver, quaver, (quaver rest)]
Above is a word pattern for where you want to be thinking the ‘2’, and fitting the ‘3’ with it in the background. [You may find you need this less often – and if you find yourself accenting this at these underlinings: ‘Sail to Calais’, instead of at these: ‘Sail to Calais’, then you should be using one of the two rhymes given for “thinking the ‘3’” instead.]

All cross-rhythms can also be said with numbers (to be sure you’re getting it right!), tapping a hand on each knee:
1____2____3____4____5____6____1... <<< say all the numbers
1_________3_________5_________1... <<< one hand (the ‘3’)
1______________4______________1... <<< the other hand (the ‘2’)
...and depending on which hand's numbers you accent (saying and tapping them louder), makes the difference between practising thinking the ‘3’ and thinking the ‘2’ – do practise both ways. Start slow and get faster – but keep it exact. Use the rhymes at the same time to help. Then play 2 against 3 music, slow then faster…

Now for a more advanced one:
3 against 4 (e.g. a triplet of 3 quavers against a group of 4 semiquavers):

1___2___3___4___5___6___7___8___9___10___11___12___1... <<< say all the numbers
1___________4___________7___________10_____________1... <<< one hand (the ‘4’)
1_______________5_______________9__________________1... <<< the other hand (the ‘3’)
Again, tap these with a hand on each knee...and depending on which hand's numbers you accent (saying and tapping them louder), makes the difference between practising thinking the ‘4’ and thinking the ‘3’.

FOR THINKING THE ‘4’:
“Hey, soldier, lend a hand!”
[...think in 12/8: dotted crotchet; quaver, quaver, (quaver rest); crotchet, quaver; dotted crotchet.]
Above is a word pattern for where you want to be thinking the ‘4’, and fitting the ‘3’ with it in the background.

FOR THINKING THE ‘3’:
“I'm a happy drummer”
[...think in 3/2: dotted crotchet, quaver;
2 crotchets; quaver, dotted crotchet.]
Above is a word pattern for where you want to be thinking the ‘3’, and fitting the ‘4’ with it in the background.