my daughter goes to a music theory class provided by school on a Monday night. She used to go to another club on a Monday but we all thought music theory would be more beneficial (other club was called jigsaw club...nothing to do with jigsaws though!)
Anyway, Monday i pick her up and ask her what she actually did when she'd left the workbook at home.
It turns out that she hasn't actually been to theory for months!!! she'd worked out that if she "forgot" her book then she could go to "jigsaw" instead!......crafty!!!

After talking it over (and not shouting too much ) i've found out that she's got to a stage that she doesn't understand and doesn't understand the explanation she's been given. She also feels quite intimidated by some other girls and doesn't want to ask again. I feel so bad for her.

It's only grade 1 theory and she's usually really good at it but she's got stuck on i think it was "tones and semi-tones"?

Would anyone here be able to give a kiddy friendly explanation of what these are? she's only 8

Also, just how important is it to know the theory?

Thankyou in advance!

Rach x

Hi Rachael

I can't give you help with the theory but hopefully I can offer some you some support. I have two daughters who went to after school sessions for theory run by the Music Service. They were ok in the grades 1 to 3 classes when they knew the Teacher. Not sure how much they actually learnt though. The next level they really disliked, they were fine with the people in the group but didn't understand how the Teacher put things across. It helped that they were all in a similar position, also they knew quite a few of them from the groups they attend at the Arts centre. I don't think your daughters experience is uncommon. At one point I thought they would never get through it.

They both took G5 Theory last session one passed and the other got a merit. I got a nice student who lives nextdoor to help them initially and then one of the forumites did lots of past papers with them and explained all the things they didn't know.

My girls were a bit older than your daughter when they started Theory and if she's in a class with lots of older pupils it's not suprising she feels a bit lost. Can you get any outside help away from the group? If she needs to do Theory urgently at least one ot one she would have more confidence ot ask about things she doesn't understand.

As a parent myself I didn't realise the importance of Theory until it got to the stage where the girls needed it to move forward or were approaching that stage. I think working though the books is good but our Music Service don't really start people on Theory until they are G3 Practical. How important it is will depend on where your daughter is at with practical exams.

You don't want to put your daughter off Music by forcing her to take the classes she doesn't enjoy however much she might need them. There are alternatives such as Practical Musicianship and Jazz (if it's available for her instrument) both are hardwork but might be more fun for a young child. Theory is only required for AB exams so there are options with other boards even if she is approaching G5 on her instrument. Talking to her Teacher might be a good first step.

Rachel

Before getting onto semitones and tones here I think there are other things going through my mind.

At 8 years of age it will be very hard for your daughter to really grasp the theory of music unless she is also studying some instrument or singing (with a music teacher, either 1:1 or in a small group - not just in a large classroom situation) so she gains some practical understanding and application of what she's seeing on paper. Is she simply doing theory? That's hard going at quite a young age.

If she's taking an instrumental/singing study too - then ask her teacher to explain the things she doesn't understand to her, in the context of her lessons with them. They may make more sense then.

I regard it as important to teach all my pupils theory in parallel to the instrumental lessons they take with me. The two are mutually supportive of each other. That said, I don't usually start theory until some basics have been grasped on the instrument for the reason I mentioned above.

Tones and semitones are best "seen" on a piano - even if your daughter is actually playing something else (in which case how you think of them will vary from instrument to instrument). On a piano, the closest distance between two notes (usually a black and white note but it may be between B and C or E and F, where no black notes come between the white notes) is called a semitone. Where you have another note in the middle of two keys (ie a black between two white or a white between a black and white) it's called a tone. In terms of writing these down, it will depend on the key of the music and placement of the notes what each would look like on paper.

I suppose the final thought that occurs to me is what is the teacher of her theory class doing in allowing her to miss months of classes and not bothering to let you know or chase her as to where she's been? Personally, I'd be wanting to ask some questions of that teacher to try and resolve this.

We are always pleased to try and help on these Forums but I'd get back to the people responsible for teaching your daughter. The "mysteries" of music are not always easily solved and explained via the internet - you need to experience them for yourself.

Hope you get this sorted and do keep in touch with the Forums. Good luck to your daughter.

Hi Rachel, and welcome to the forums

I agree with the above - I'm learning clarinet but being able to picture a piano keyboard has helped me a lot with theory.

THIS WEB SITE shows you a piano keyboard and explains what semitones are. If it's not clear, do ask again, either here on in the Theory forum

I also I agree with this. I live in France where the music system is not the same and children have a compulsory theory lesson from the beginning.

My elder daughter who started these lessons when she was seven played the cello, on which she wasn't even learning consecutive notes (let alone tones and semi-tones). Most of the theory went completely over her head, despite us having a piano at home and me attempting to show her. It is only this year (she is now ten and a half) that she is starting to understand things.

My younger daughter (just eight) is learning the piano and she understood the concept of tones and semi-tones immediately. In fact, I am now realising that everything my elder daughter has been taught (and is still being taught) makes perfect sense if you are learning the piano but none at all if you are learning bass clef instruments (almost all the examples are given in the treble clef). It hasn't helped my daughter that the majority of her class mates are learning the piano and that the few that aren't all play treble clef instruments.

I teach clarinet and I have done a Gr 1 theory class on tones and semitones tonight and I HAD to use a keyboard!!!! It is the easiest way to understand tones and semitones! The pupils soon grasped the keyboard and understood what I was talking about!!!!
In clarinet, a chromatic scale isn't introduced till gr 3 which is why it is hard for my pupils to understand tones and semitones!
I also taught an 8 year old this evening who hasn't started theory yet. She is doing Gr 1 practical this session.... but I'm not too worried that she hasn't done theory yet. My yr 6 and 7's are coping well with theory... maaybe they are old enough to understand!!

If she isn't Gr 3 standard yet... don't worry too much... if she wants to do the other club.... why not? Maybe she is just not ready yet!!!!
I might start my 8 year old on theory when she is in yr 5.... she's just not ready yet.

It's much easier to understand (and to teach) in the context of learning the instrument.

I do agree with everyone above who has said that it's easier to "see" the semitones on the piano, and at her age that is what she really needs, otherwise it's just too abstract.

However, I usually teach theory as we go along, - when a pupil is doing grade 1 piano work, I introduce the theory work at the same time. But a few years ago, I had a pupil who was conscientious in every other way, but she kept "forgetting" her theory book, or "forgetting" to do the theory I set, and I had a serious chat with her (she was a serious little girl) and I decided that she simply found the theory too hard at that stage.
We've left it a couple of years and now she's happy to make a start on the theory work. Whether we get to the right stage when she wants to take grade 6 remains to be seen, but sometimes these things happen.

Both of mine did theory with their piano teacher, Jamie still does. She used to take them together and got one to work on the theory book while the other was having a lesson and then quickly reviewed the theory work done at the end of the other child's lesson. It worked extremely well. Beth has a separate theory lesson now.
I do think that you have to have a certain level of maturity to take the theory exams and I could easily see how many 8 year olds wouldn't have it.
Even if a child is way ahead on the practical exams it is possible to catch up very quickly with the theory papers and you can always simply not take a practical exam and move on to the next one while waiting to catch up with the theory.
There are an amazing number of internet sites with music theory on them. I tend to google whatever it is that I need to know at the time and I usually get a good number of useful hits. She might like searching the internet with you looking for information.
Dora

You dont actually mention at what stage your daughter is practically, what instrument she plays etc. Obviously you need to take grade 5 theory if and when you wish to take grade 6 practical for ABRSM examinations, but if this is not imminent, there really is no rush, and certainly not worth pushing your daughter to do something she obviously is not enjoying at present (although I am not sure anyone ever really enjoys theory). My daughter is 12, has taken Grade 5 last year gainining a distinction on violin and is taking grade 5 piano in March. Her piano teacher has been giving her 15 mins theory tuition tapped on the end of her piano lesson every week over the last few months, and she works through the books at her own pace. She is just finishing Grade 5 theory work book, which will then follow some mock test papers resulting in her taking the exam later this year when she will then be 13. She is playing Grade 7/8 violin pieces, but is in no rush to take her grade 6, it will be done as and when she has time and at present enjoying learning to play as many styles of music as she can. A lot of theory is learnt as you progress through your practical studies, especially performance direction.

I agree with others as regards age 8 being quite young to grasp all concepts of music theory. There are no medals for taking it early, and if it is not really necessary, dont push it. There's plenty of time.

Oh i'm so sorry, reading back my post it all seems a bit of a ramble

Ellie is taking her grade 1 violin at the beginning of May, she's also learning flute and beginning piano on Monday. All her choice i have to add, i just hand over the money.

I'm not musical myself so don't have a clue how it all works. I'd assumed that she'd have to do the grade 1 theory with the practical, seeing her workbook not even half done i think i paniced a little that she wouldn't have it done in time.

I bought the theory handbook thinking i might be able to help her myself and even i got bamboozled!
We have a digital piano and could understand in those terms but couldn't think how to apply it to the violin?
I'm happy now that she does in theory know what they are and that she'll learn how they're applied later on when she can grasp it a little better.

Gosh it's so hard! i can't grasp any of it and because i don't know how it works i'm afraid i might make it worse.

If she doesn't need the theory for May, when does she need it? or would it just be better for her to pick it up as she goes along?

Thankyou for your input i am grateful.

Rach x

As far as exams go she doesn't need theory for a good while yet.
With this board grade 5 theory OR grade 5 practical musicianship OR grade 5 in a jazz subject are requirements for those taking grades 6-8 practical exams.
Other exam boards have different requirements and with Triniy Guildhal at least there is no requirement to have taken a theory exam for any practical grade.

However a certain amount of theory is useful and some even necessary (things like knowing what the notes are, time values of notes, time signatures, keysignatures) but tend to come as a natural result of learning to play an instrument. A good teacher will automatically cover these things at the appropriate time (this will often vary according to the instrument) and this can make preparing formally for the grade 5 exam largely a matter of formalising what is already known and getting used to the format of the questions when the time comes.

She doesn't necessarily /need/ written theory ever. If she wants to do music for GCSE or A-level or study music at university or music college, she'll need to do some. If she wants to compose her own music she'll find it useful (though she could always come up with her own form of notation or keep her tunes in her head instead of writing them down). But if she just wants to play her instruments, there's no automatic need to study theory formally.

The usual point where people suddenly "need" to take a theory exam is because they want to take grade 6+ on their instrument. AB require either grade 5 theory or an acceptable alternative before you can enter for grade 6 or higher. Way back, it used to be just grade 5 theory, but now you can do grade 5 practical musicianship or grade 5 jazz instead, so you can get to grade 8 without ever doing theory. TG (a different exam board) doesn't have a prerequisite like that, so it's perfectly possible to get all the way to grade 8 without doing any of them.
I think about a grade a year is fairly average progress for kids learning an instrument, so even if she ends up needing it in order to take grade 6, that's likely to be a few years away.

However, a good understanding of theory is useful and I think that even if people don't need to get grade 5 (because they don't take exams, or because they do TG, or because they have jazz or prac mus instead), they should learn some theory. It doesn't have to be formal written work, and her instrumental teachers will cover a lot of it in the course of normal lessons (things like staff notation, note values, time signatures, key signatures, dynamics, musical terms, etc.). A lot of theory is much easier to understand in terms of the keyboard though, so she'll find it easier once she starts piano, but most things where familiarity with the keyboard really helps, like scale construction, intervals and chords, come a little later anyway.

I'm not sure which theory book you've got, but one that's very easy to understand is Theory is Fun. It's more accessible for most young kids than things like Music Theory in Practice, and there are 5 books in the series (covering the first 5 grades).

There's no requirement to take all grades, so she'll be able to take grade 5 theory if/when the time comes without having taken any previous theory grades, though it may be useful to take a lower one at some point so she gets used to the exam situation.
I did grade 1 (when I was 7), then grade 5 (several years later, in a rush because I needed it to do grade 6 clarinet) and now I'm working for grade 7 (exam is next week). A friend of mine did grades 1, 3, 5 and 7 (roughly in step with his progress on piano). Plenty of people take grade 5 as their first (and last) theory exam.
(Incidentally, the same thing applies to instrumental grades - the only subject where I've started at grade 1 and taken every grade from there to my current one is piano. Everything else I've either started at a higher grade, or skipped some of the intervening grades or both. You can't (sensibly) take grade 1 and then skip straight to learning grade 5 material, but you can work your way up without actually taking the exams - it's the exams that you miss out, not the intervening stages of learning.)

All best,
T.

Is that true? I didn't know that. Why is Grade 5 in a jazz subject the equivalent of G5 theory?

It's true - check any AB grade 6+ syllabus.

It's not directly equivalent. Neither is practical musicianship. But the jazz exams require you to know a whole bunch of scales that you don't do for the ordinary exams (pentatonic, blues, modal, etc.) and you have to do some improvisation. So, like theory or practical musicianship, it means you have a broader understanding of music than would be required just for the ordinary grade 5 exam in your instrument.

The grade 5 jazz doesn't have to be in any particular instrument, so it doesn't matter whether or not it's in the same instrument you want to do for grade 6+.

I've already got grade 5 theory, so I don't need to do jazz to get the exemption, but I'd like to do some anyway just to get the experience of a different style of music and to broaden my musical understanding. So I might try a jazz flute exam just for fun in between grades 7 and 8, and we'll definitely do some jazz work then whether I decide to try the exam or not.
I don't /need/ to do practical musicianship either, but in terms when I'm not taking exams we do some anyway just because it's a good thing to do. I don't know if I'll ever do an exam in it, but it's worth doing even if you're not going to take the exam.

T.

It's true and probably the easiest way to progress to G6 if the candidate like improvising.

If your daughter is just starting piano lessons, why not have a word with the teacher and explain the theory situation. He/she can probably make sure that a little formal theory is included in each lesson. I use the piano to explain lots of theory to flute students, and most of them find the interval and bass clef reading easier if they are also learning this instrument. Above all, let her enjoy playing her instruments - I'm sure the theory will become easier as she gets older!

i would say to imagine a giant piano, a tone is far away from the note, so you take a big step, a whole one. A semi tone is closer though, and so you hardly step at all, only a half step infact.

But i dont really know what she is having trouble with.

PM me Rachael

However a tone is two semitones. Get her to draw a piano keyboard. The distance between C-D, D-E F-G, G-A and A-B are all tones as there is a black note the semitone in between. E-F and B-C are semitones as there is no black note between the distance between any white note and the Black note immediately to its Right ,eg F-F# is a semitone or immediately to its left, eg B- Bb is a semitone.

I hope this works and I'm not too late. It's the musical equivalent of 1+1 = 2.

Jo

Thankyou again for your help, we have managed to work out the tones and semitones now but i've also decided to lay off on the theory for now.
I'm quite confident that she will pick it up as she goes along (she always has up until the theory lessons were available anyway) and if a time comes when she does need to work harder at it we can tackle that as and when.
She's doing 3 instruments now so i really don't want to push her too hard (even though i think 3 is too much already, especially on my purse strings)

Thanks again!

Rach x

personally I just learn the theory required as I go along with my violin classes. I never didi music as a school subject becuase the thought of all the theory drfove me towards doing other subjects.

Anyway for a violin player like me asemi tone is place 1finger right next to another while tone is leaving a space between 2 fingers. Nopt the proper explanation but it works for me and I play grade 6 violin.

Anyway in short you don't need extra theory lessons. Just learn it as you go when studying an instrument.

From my personal experience, formal theory is too difficult for a young child until they have done about grade 3 on an instrument other than piano and at least grade 1 on the piano; they also need to have a good general reading age. It's better to leave the formal theory until they have reached this standard because then it comes quite easily and never seems overwhelming. They can get through the grades to 5 quite quickly after that if they are making similar progress in their practical exams.

They will pick up lots of useful theory during their practical lessons in any case without noticing it.