Over on another thread I recommended the Scriabin Etude op. 8 no 12 by describing it as "every bar packed full of nutty, crunchy, fruity harmonies"; which makes it sound like a kind of Hi-fibre healthy breakfast substitute. For the Pianist On the Go.

Which got me thinking, what kind of pianist could have Scriabin for breakfast? I find thinking about this quite disturbing. What would they be playing by lunchtime? And by nightfall? I can't see their day ending any other way than in a standoff with armed, earplugged police, hailing them to STEP... AWAY.... FROM... THE.... PIANO.....I REPEAT.....

Sorabji's Opus Clavecembelisticum would be in there somethere. What other mind-bending music could this terrifying imaginary pianist move onto after disposing of Scriabin in four quick bites?

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. It is well know that Scriabins music underwent a more notable metamorphisis than other composers. Are you referring to his late atonal works which were viewed by some as evil ? and are you saying that if you started playing these in the morning and then went on to other composers...well who excactly ? Schoenberg, Webern... But don't try and demean Alexander, one of my heroes, whose gorgeous nocturne for the Left hand i was playing in a practise room yesterday morning at 9:10am, but with both hands(cheating i know, but more pedalling options on a baby grand in Great Marlborough Street. I'm on holiday and my flats getting refurbished, so I am out and about and discovering just how morning is a great time to play.

Lucky you starting the day playing! I've never tried that Nocturne.

The intention is quite the opposite from demeaning Alexander. The late sonatas are not evil at all, until you try to learn to play them.... though the 6th is quite terrifying, and not just to the learner.

Just mentally improvising with enthusiasm, after picking up the op.8 no.3 Etude which MadTom enthused about, and starting to learn it. So I was wondering what someone who'd mastered the whole of Scriabin might move onto next to satisfy an appetite for pictures of mental atmospheres, very complex figuration, rich harmony and the general indefinable "mind-bendingness" that Scriabin does so well.

Someone who'd mastered the whole of Scriabin, would have to be a terrifyingly good pianist. Maybe Horowitz would have a few things to say about this, if he was still around?

The more I listen to Scriabin's piano music the more God-like he becomes.

Why is he not as popular as Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, and Rachmaninoff??

Anyone that enjoys their Rachmaninoff would love Scriabin's Etudes.

He has a reputation as difficult to listen to - but that is only when the pianist is struggling to play it. Well played it is richly melodic, as well as full of wonderful effects from the interference patterns of different metric patterns: 4 v 5, 5 v 7, etc. And then there is the magic trick of making the most outlandish dissonances sound like sweet harmonies.

My feeling exactly! And it's true of the whole lot - from huge, late pieces like Sonatas 6-10 or Vers la flamme, all the way back to small-scale early preludes. Even in the earlier pieces there's a definite Scriabin atmosphere going on which you don't get from anyone else.

I don't know why he isn't more popular.

Maybe the difficulty of learning to play the pieces has something to do with it? There are things in Scriabin I find very hard to learn, on top of the more general technical challenges. One is the complicated metric patterns. Another is Scriabin's habit of writing 10ths/11ths/12ths, especially in the left hand - sometimes even with inner notes as well - in a way that demands the same agility as you'd have just playing simple octaves. This is so widespread that I'm going to have to practice it as a general technique, like octaves. It must be do-able - according to Wikipedia, Scriabin himself had relatively small hands, just over an octave span.


Could be that odd, very individual quality which makes people (e.g. me) love his music so much also puts some other people off? But it works, maybe better than people might think. That magic trick you talk about with the harmonies applies to the melodies as well. e.g. that amazing rising melody that comes a few bars into the 6th Sonata. If you hear it with no preconceptions, it's just an incredible melody, which makes perfect sense; it's only when you look at the music that it seems bizarre, with anything you thought you knew about tonality and harmony thrown out of the window.

I agree that the player has to be completely on top of the technical aspects to really make it work. There's also an aspect of knowing the language, which takes some doing. I mean, beyond playing the notes, there are aspects of e.g. a classical sonata or a Bach fugue that you can work on bringing out - hidden melodies or harmonic movements that add an enormous amount if they're made subtly present in a performance - and these aspects appear as possibilities to work on relatively easily, because the language is familiar. With later Scriabin it feels like navigating an unknown territory.

As for listening; perhaps (especially late) Scriabin gets pigeonholed as "weird, difficult, atonal, 20thC music", when it's much easier to listen to than that classification would suggest. Years ago I was bashing through the 8th Sonata - very badly - late one night; next day my housemate, who isn't normally into "classical" music at all - more house and techno - came down raving so much about the piece that I ended up buying her a recording of it being played properly.

If I had all the time in the world I'd be going through all the scores trying to figure out how the man did it - it's like a self-contained world that makes perfect sense, but I've no idea how it works so well.

(But I've already read through op.8 no 11 again, oh no, yet another great piece - so now I've got nos. 3, 11 and revive no.12 to work on.... there just isn't enough time!)

Glad to find otherScriabin-lovers out there!

Don't get too carried away just yet. I only count three of us. I think we are heavily outnumbered by Einaudi lovers.

Yay, Nocturne for the Left Hand! Great piece. I recall that was one of the pieces that I'd always wanted to play!

Unfortunately, I think I've lost the music for it somewhere!


I really liked 2, 3 and 5 out of the Op. 17, Seven Preludes too, but I never really got the hang of smooth octaves and the high tempo, especially regarding number 5! Maybe I'll give it a go again sometime!

~Wobby~

Scriabin wrote two pieces for the Left Hand when he developed physical problems with his Right, from overpractising Balakirevs Islamey. At the time he was in deep torment and believed God had sealed his fate, and that his career as a performer was in serious jeapardy. Both Prelude and Nocturne are very lyrical pieces, and though i initially learned them with with the Left hand, using both does give you far more pedalling options...and actually does'nt make them all that easier to play either.

I know this is an old thread, but over the last few months I have listened to almost everything Scriabin ever wrote for the piano, and am learning to play quite a lot of it. And I have a very heretical announcement to make:

No only do I love Scriabin's Piano Music

But also:

I prefer Scriabin to Beethoven,

and Mozart,
and Chopin,
and Schumann, Liszt, Mendelsohn, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Debussy, Ravel, Shostakovich, ...

in fact every other composer you can name (that I have given a fair hearing) except maybe Haydn.

Mad Tom, thank heavens you stopped at Haydn, or I would consider you as mad not only in name...

As for the technical difficulty in Scriabin, it is certainly a big factor in dissuading lots of people from taking up the challenge of learning to play his music (myself included).

But a friend of mine, who can actually play Balakirev's Islamey - without causing himself serious injury, unlike poor Scriabin - still claims that most of what Richard Strauss wrote for the piano is even trickier to play than a lot of Scriabin. Strauss' accompaniments (Violin Sonata in Eb being a prime example) he describes as 'fiendish'.

Any opinion on this?

The Scriabin worship may be a temporary abberation ... ... at least in so far as preferring his music to all those other great composer's goes ... an over-reaction to discovering his greatness. But I have started work on building a repertoire and honestly the earnest, seriousness of Beethoven and the big display fireworks of Liszt do wear you down ... they may be suitable for the big stage ... but they don't suit the small, intimate, events that I am more likely to be playing, whereas a lot of Scriabin's works do suit that kind of venue far better.

But I still think Haydn is wonderful and that his piano sonatas are superior to those of Mozart and Beethoven. That is not something I'd have said a couple of years ago - I used to think nothing could compare with Beethoven's 32 Sonatas ... but back then I had not given Haydn's work very much attention compared to Mozart and Beethoven. I have now.


True, some of it is VERY difficult, but a lot of the preludes and a few etudes and other pieces are not that hard at all. You could take a look at the 4 Preludes Op 33, 3 Preludes Op 35, and etude Op 2 No 1, none of which is especially difficult. There are many individual Preludes in the other sets that do not pose serious technical challenges. Even the more difficult pieces - once you crack them, they fall nicely under the fingers and are a joy to play.


Islamey is certainly impresssive when it is well played, but to injure his right hand practising it suggests that Scriabin was doing something badly wrong. But if he hadn't injured himself we would not have had his brilliant Prelude for the left hand (Op 9 No 1)!

I started to learn it (Islamey that is) - but quickly decided that the musical content did not justify the thousands of repetitions it would take to get it up to any kind of standard. I can use the time better!

Sorry - I know nothing about Richard Strauss's piano music.

It's interesting that you revere Haydn so highly, as I am the only person I know who would agree with you. I never tire of his piano writing; always fascinating on so many levels.

I will certainly give Scriabin's works another try, now that you have helped me with finding his more manageable pieces - many thanks.

Do try and look up Strauss' piano parts - especially the violin sonata in Eb (a youthful work of his). It is beautiful music to listen to, but you really have to see the score to believe it. The piano part looks like a car crash in places ... and the slow middle movement was once on the AB Violin Grade 8 list. More fool any accompanist who volunteers to play for a candidate with that piece in their exam programme, without checking it out first.

Anyway, back to Scriabin - visionary or madman? Either way, I think he deserves a growing fan-base.

They'd play Conlon Nancarrow's player piano pieces ...

Nick

I enjoy playing Scriabin also, but generally stick to the earlier sets of preludes, and that C#minor Etude.

I have just finished the Scriabin biography by Faubion Bowers, which i would recommend to anyone fascinated by this composer. There is also a Scriabin Myspace page which has some interesting quotes on his (not so kind)opinions of the music of Shostokovich, Prokofiev and his old pal Rachmaninov. He was some character, and many of his letters are very amusing. Like Tom, I am dedicating a considerable amount of time to his compositions, and plan to continue doing this. along with Grieg and Chopin, he is the composer closest to my heart. At the moment i am working on around forty of his shorter pieces, mostly preludes, but also some poemes, mazurkas and etudes. We often hear about the ecstasy and the rapturous and the languid contemplation, it really is all there, in a way no other composer did in the same way.

Yes. Another under-rated musical giant (and my teacher's current obsession)

If Im just wandering about the house, and pass the piano, I often just sit down and play the Op11 No2 prelude as I've memorised it. Wife's probably getting fed up of it by now, I'll have to memorise No 4 or 5 instead!

Try No. 21. It is gorgeous - though it needs some finesse to avoid one particular subtle dissonance sounding plain wrong.

But how did he achieve so much with so few notes, so simply deployed?

Ah yes that one!. Just listened to it as its in my iTunes (Gordon Fergus Thompsons recording of Op11, and some of Op15,16,17.) Yes, I'll try it when I'm at home tomorrow evening.

I'd say the Opus 11 are his most popular shorter pieces, they really are beauties. I've been looking at the Sonatas, and just finished the third movement of the Sonata No3, which is about four pages. It's my first attempt at any of them, and to be honest, for the most part they're just too hard for me. But i still intend to play parts of the first five. Bernd Glemsers recording on Naxos of 8 of these Sonatas, has been a regular in my CD player, and certainly my favourite recording of these works.

Yes - magnificent - but Op 15 deserves to be more popular too - I especially like No 4.


I like No. 3, but I have not tried playing any of it yet. The 4th movement looks like a killer.

I am working on Sonata No. 2, and although I found it very hard to get through it on the first couple of familiarization readings, now that it is "in the fingers" it is nowhere near so hard to play as it looks and sounds. (Still - it will be a long time yet before it is worth anyone's while to listen to my rendition of it!)


I have John Ogdon's recording. I had expected great things, but it is disappointing. It is technically impressive that he can play so many notes at speed, with correct rhythm, but he does not bring out the inner relationships of the themes and ideas that well, nor does he get the overall balance of sections right, and so he misses the message of the music.

I did not realize this until I tried playing some parts for myself, badly of course, but well enough to see how they could be made to sound very much better than Ogdon made them by someone with sufficient skill and understanding. Then I listened to some postings of Sofronitsky on YouTube ... and my suspicions were confirmed. They can be played very much better.

[Incidentally it seems that everyone has posted a version of Etude Op 8 No 12 ... but the version by Dinorah Varsi is in a different class from the rest - she really understands what Scriabin was after - the rest play it as a virtuosic "show-off"]

How does Glemser compare with Sofronitsky?

I cannot say I have ever 'got' Scriabin, but recently attended a recital where several of his works were presented, (unfortunately I cannot remember what they were and have lost the programme)but enjoyed it.
It was certainly music of a standard way beyond my meagre capabilities but I should like to ask people on here who appear to know, what would be a good introduction to this music.
I am working through the ATCL/LTCL syllabus (with difficulty for the latter!) and there is only the Etude op.8 No 11 by Scriabin and nothing at all in LTCL.

Any recommendations? Something reasonably accessible to get me started on this-to me- uncharted territory?

Mel

Selected Preludes that take your fancy from just about any of the sets of Preludes. They vary in difficulty from very tricky to easily sight readable.

Dover do a nice edition of the complete Preludes and Etudes in one volume. It is fantastic value at about 12 quid - which is what most other pub lishers charge for a single opus number. It seems quite well put together - at least my copy hasn't fallen apart yet - and it is taking a hammering travelling about in my rucksack every day.

Failing that the Urtext by Konemann (Budapest) is good value. Eight volumes are planned covering Scriabins complete works. The complete Preludes in 2 volumes are amonst those already published.

I'd certainly start with Op11 ones. The slower tempo ones tend to be the easiest, some of the faster ones are quite difficult, especially those with big leaps. Of the faster ones that arent too difficult try No 3, it follows on from my favourite no 2, then 4 and 5 are quite straightforward too. Tom likes no 21, which I agree is quite beautiful and gentle. No 16 is a bit of a laugh, a parody of funeral march but in 5 beats in a bar.

my favourite Scriabin works are the later ones where everything was trying to achieve a sense of ecstasy.

his Ninth Sonata is amazing for that... ive heard people call it the 'Black Mass' Sonata- did Scriabin himself give it that name?

and Vers la Flamme is just genius; for some reason the only work of Scriabin i can play well enough to be able to say i can play it

Many thanks for the suggestions, folks.

I'll start looking amongst the ones you mention.

Mel

Sofronitsky is a reknowned Scriabinist, and i must listen some more to him. I don't have any of his recordings either. but intend to check him out on you tube. Glemser has played these pieces and taken me to many a fascinating place, his palette of tone colour is endless and the power and sensitivity of his playing make him one of my all time favourite pianists. Crystal clear sonorities, but never spikey or brittle. He now plays on the German OHEMS label. I am planning to learn this Second sonata too, the last page looks fairly impossible, so thats where i'll start...have written out some fingerings. Have recently aquired the Dover edition of Scriabins Poemes, Mazurkas, Impromptus...which includes many other pieces too, in fact, just about everything for piano solo he wrote apart from the sonatas, preludes and etudes.

Looks like I'll have to find the recordings by Glemser then!

Sonata No 2 ... that last page is no more diffficult than the rest of the last movement. At least most of the time one hand is doing something pretty simple while the other is playing triplets at an absurd speed. I have faith that it will eventually yield to slow and deliberate practice.

I have the complete Etudes and Preludes in the Dover edition, and everything else in 5 volumes from Konemann - at just 3.95 Euros per volume.

What i meant was the last page of the first movement from the second sonata, it's hard to figure out excactly how to coordinate the notes from left and right hands, there are so many on the right, and i'm not sure... quite how to get the interaction right, ... my knowledge of theory is basic, which does'nt help. Other pieces i'm looking at are the Poeme opus 41, which took an age to work out and write the fingerings, it is a haunting piece which has an ascending feel to it, as well as the popular Opus 32 Poeme No1. Pascal Amoyels recent recording of the complete Poemes, is fabulous.

No .. it isn't. His music just gets better and better the more you listen to it.

Now I know why I was put on this earth, why I was blessed with some talent for the piano, and why ... a year ago ... despite the handicap of a break of over 20 years ... I became driven to develop that talent to the utmost possible ... whatever it takes ...

I still don't see where the problem is - it is a lot more straightforward than the Poemes (Op 32 No 1 and Op 41 that you mention having learned - or that very beautiful third movement of Sonata No 3 that you recently learned).

It is just 3 2 with running triplets of quavers against a melody in minims and crotchets. The only tiny complications are the dotted crotchet-quaver figure that occurs in the melody (so the quaver sounds between the 5th and 6th triplet quavers) and the tied B across measures 105 and 106. The only thing that makes this movement difficult is that it is to be played Presto. Are you perhaps looking at the last page of a different sonata by mistake

Well i'm not at home at the moment and i don't keep a pc either, but i've written down your comment and will look at the music when i get home. I have'nt tried the second sonata yet, but have written out fingerings for the last page of the first movement, as to me this part i find the trickiest looking. As my knowledge of theory is quite basic, i do occasionally have problems figuring certain things out that involve lots of notes, and where they fit in with both hands. The Poeme Op32, is not easy but i had no such problems figuring it out...Op41 is a piece which took me many hours to work out and then write fingerings for, but that was the hardest part of learning it.

I love the lot, from the Waltz in F minor and the Morceaux through to the last set of 5 preludes (Op 74) though you have to have faith to listen to some of the later stuff enough times to start to understand and enjoy it.

Yes it is amazing (so are the other nine!). No Scriabin did not give it the name 'Black Mass', but he is said to have approved. He did name No 7 the 'White Mass'

It is.

I am impressed.

You can add my to this! I've tried Vers la Flamme, but never got close to learning it properly.

I'm still working away on op.8 nos 3, 11 and 12. 11 and 12 are straightfoward at least - I mean, they're not easy, but they're yielding to slow practice.

No.3 though has some special secret pianist-defeating weapons hidden in it. The strength required from the 5th finger for the correct accents is phenomenal. And the left-hand part in the first statement of the theme (octave figuration) is almost impossible to practice properly. Most music can be approached with tons of slow practice - but this part turns inevitably into 3/4 rather than 6/8 at slow speeds. So I've got the notes under my fingers, but not the correct accents and groove. Could be why the right-hand 5th finger is having to work so hard - it's trying to compensate for the left-hand's traces of 3/4.

I wonder whether this Sofronitsky has recorded the Concerto? (That's my next project, starting off learning a few bits at the moment). I have a downloaded recording, from a Scriabin competition a few years back, and it's a bit disappointing: technically superb, but I think the player (I don't even know the name) overplays/over-expresses it, mishandles the "improvisant" sections - which aren't all explicitly marked that way - and gets in the way of the orchestra, when a lot of the twiddly stuff in this piece is in fact accompaniment. (To be fair, it's a competition final, there may not have been much of a chance for the player and orchestra to work together).

I've got Ashkenazy with (LPO?) and Lorin Maazel conducting, which is much better - but on LP, and my record-deck is in bits.


Exactly how I feel playing (or rather, trying to play) Scriabin!

When I've got time I'll have to revive the last movement of (I think) the 2nd Sonata: G#minor, continuous fast triplets in the left hand.

Demidenko recorded the Scriabin concerto(+Tchaikovskys 1st) and it's really good, but it's still not a work that I'm very familiar with. Right now I'm concentrating on around half of the preludes from the 24 of Opus 11, which just seem 'on the verge', they are deceptive though, even the ones that appear more straightforward can often confuse you. Well worth the efforts though!

I hope so. I've obtained the complete Scriabin preludes and have to say I'm still struggling to understand the fuss!

It just sounds all wrong. Maybe it is! I think I need to get a good recording to unlock the mystery.

Mel

Yes. I didn't understand the fuss until I heard Op 11 Nos 11 and 21 played live at a small recital. They are still my two favourites, but from that small beginning I went out and bought the scores and recordings of everything Scriabin produced for the piano, and eventually even the later stuff starts to make sense.

I think if you are working from the scores, and you have not heard any of this stuff played well it might be very difficult to imagine what those squiggles can become when realized in sound.

The Naxos recording of the Preludes by Evgeny Zafariants is pretty good - probably 10x better than I shall ever be able to play them - and it is tremendous value for money. The local classical record shop here sells it for just 7.50 Euros - or 5 Euros if you take it as part of their their 5 Naxos disks for 25 Euros offer. Not much more than the price of a beer.

I think that is going to be the answer - following the score whilst listening to the recording. I'll look out for that one.
What a pity the TCL diplomas don't feature Scriabin preludes in their diploma repertoire. I'm committed to that this time round and am not sure if AB accept a TCL diploma as prerequisite for the LRSM. I'm sure having a goal performance would concentrate the mind.

Mel

I also have the Naxos recording of the preludes, and i like many of Zarafiants interpretations. I've also got Pletnev(opus11) and other complete preludes... Diev(also brilliant), Lettberg, Ponti. I would say though that so far the Naxos one is my overall favourite. To be able to compose a short piece and make a meaningful statement on just one or two pages is something many a composer could'nt do that effectively. However, Scriabin along with Chopin, Schumman and Grieg are recognised as masters of this form.

Can anyone recommend a good edition of Scriabin's Sonata No 2 with fingerings? My Konemann Urtext has no suggested fingerings at all. This isn't a problem with the first movement, but I am struggling to come up with something that works for (some of) the fast triplets in the second movement.

Thanks

I kept this in mind today as i went to music shops in the West End, Chappells, Foyles, Brittens and the one on Great Marlborough street. Dover, which i have, has hardly any fingerings throughout the entire book. Schirmer none either. The same for Konemann . There was no Peters one there, but they usually do give more fingerings than most. The only one i saw which has extensive fingerings and pedalling was for the fourth sonata and it was part of the Alfred edition with various pieces, some etudes, poemes, preludes, mazurkas, all the pieces were done in this way, and despite me having them in other books i bought it, really helpful, in fact ...the complete opposite to Urtext. Good luck with the piece, i have a question to ask you about the second sonata when i have the music with me.

Thanks. It is touching that you remembered and took the trouble to look. I have placed an order for a copy of the Peter's edition which I am told has useful, though not extensive, fingering. It costs 30 Euros - a bit steep when I paid 3.99 for the Konemann, but I am planning to play this piece in next year's Yamaha competition. And if it isn't ready in time I have an impressive Mozart sonata in reserve.

Wow...the Yamaha competition, i'm aiming for a recital in the local community hall on a knackered upright! well to be honest i'm getting pieces ready for a CD album i want to record, just to see if i can do it really... playing in front of a big audience, a piece like the second sonata, no wonder you're starting work on it now. As for the Peters edition, i have the Scriabin etudes, and there are some helpful fingerings, not that i use all of them, as i spend a considerable amount of time writing my own ones out, but it's nice to have other suggestions.

Yes prestigious, but anyone can enter. There is a hurdle even to get into the competition proper, and then there is no guarantee of getting beyond the first round. Mind you, I have started working on Beethovens Concerto No 3 in Cm - on the (very) remote possibility of winning the whole thing and the first prize of playing a Concerto with a top Orchestra

Well they all matter. You never know who might be listening, and what effect your playing may have on them. You might be responsible for a lifelong love of music, or of a particular composer, or of inspiring a great career in performance.

Or - perhaps even more important - giving (through music) emotional solace and meaning to someone - just when they need it in their lives.

It is important to always have a musical message to convey - and deliver it to the best of your ability - even if circumstances sometimes conspire to derail things (see below).

It is tough. I still struggle to stay calm in front a of an audience of any size. The real me - the one that can really play piano - is left behind in the practice rooms. In last weekend's recital I had to repeat four bars in a Mozart sonata while I remembered what came next, then in the recap I hit a dominant chord in the LH when I should have gone to the tonic, cringed, and faffed about playing nonsense - hopefully in rhythm - till I got back to a "safety point".

Then in the next piece (a Chopin etude) I was still so stressed out from the mistakes in the Mozart that I twice took a wrong turn, crashed completely and had to restart. When I eventually got through the whole thing and hit the final chord (triumphantly!) the small audience cheered loudly enough to fill the Albert Hall with sound! I am sure they enjoyed it more than if I"d just given a flawless note-perfect delivery!

My Peter's Score has arrived. It covers Sonatas 1-5, and though the fingering is sparse it is very useful. It is also very nicely printed. Extremely crisp and clear. I think No. 2 is the easiest of the 10 sonatas - though I chose it because, along with a couple of preludes, it nicely fills a 15 minute spot - and not because it is (relatively!) easy