Hello All

I'm learning the piano at grade 0 (or is it -1 ??) I'm what can be politely called Mature and am in search of a couple of pointers on the subject of practice from you very experienced and talented bunch....

I've grasped the fact that I need to practice just about every day and that I should work on the bits I can't do, rather than perfecting the bits I can do. Is there anything else I should know .... just to save me from learning everything the hard way (as I have done most of my life!)

I have introduced myself on the Cafe Forum, just in case you thought I was barging in without saying hello.

This book gives some basic info on piano practice (actually a lot of it is not basic), and it tells you a lot about the structure of practice sessions, plus how to master pieces quickly, including really difficult sections.

Have fun.

Welcome Peaches - I'm just catching up on posts after a few days away.

Practise slowly ! especially in the early stages of a new tune. If it's well-known melody, don't try to play at the speed you would normally hear it (or sing it). Setting a slower speed from the beginning is sometimes quite hard to do, but will usually lay down more solid building blocks than if you start a bit too quick and then slow down for the trickier bits.

Build up gradually to normal speed as you get to know something better.

Hope this is useful. Enjoy your playing and keep in touch !

Well, it is okay to take one day a week off. But in the early grades, if you can average 1 hour a day, spread as evenly as possible over the other six, then you will make rapid progress.


Get a good teacher. The ideal is:

- a successful concert pianist
- with teacher training
- who loves to teach as much as to play
- has unlimited patience
- and doesn't neeed the money

It is in the early stages of learning that the best possible teacher is most important

Welcome Peaches

How long have you been learning for now? I agree with trying to practise every day - but hopefully you'll want to anyway as it should be an enjoyable thing to do rather than a chore




Well, I get 3/5 then

I'm not a successful concert pianist, and unfortunately, do need the money

I wish I knew a successful concert pianist though. I need some tips myself and can't find anyone who teaches beyond grade 8 Of the people who do, they will only take students who have been with them from the start to diploma, but won't take on new students starting in at that level, for some reason

I read a on website today (which I have been unable to find again), that it is best to practise in short bursts of about 10 or 15 minutes, several times a day. I was quite pleased about this, as this is what I do already! I find I can then fit practise in around family and work. I manage to practise most days, but am sometimes just too busy. I think it's important not to feel guilty about this, and to just keep practising when I can.

When you start learning scales, learn them as well as possible, as soon as possible (and in as many keys as possible), as this will help ease the pressure later on

"The Practice Revolution" by Philip Johnston gives advice on how to practice more effectively. This website link gives loads of information about the book, including what's in each chapter and quite a number of excerpts from the book as well

That's a good idea

I read a bit of "The Practise Revolution" online. It seemed good enough although maybe geared a bit more towards kids?

From what I can remember, I thought it was a bit "gimmicky" (if that's even a word lol!) I'm sure there's always something useful to be gained though.

'tell me more about how I can practise'

some good tips though I think - his practice spot website is definitely worth a look.

Bear with me on this: Long and slightly complicated post.

Re; Scales
I got to the point where I could play all the requirements starting on any given note, but was cycling through the variations in the same order. I needed to be able to go to and play (for example) F sharp minor arpeggio 2nd inversion or E flat major scale in 6ths, staccatto, or D minor melodic legato, but to be able to do it without undue delay. The way to do this is to approach them in random order from time to time. What I now do is alternate a cycling program (to make sure they are all covered) with a random program on alternate days.

This is how I do the random program:

1st, go to any of the websites that do random numbers, such as Random numbers and generate a page of random numbers. on this site 300 numbers from 00000 to 99999 allowing duplicate entries but no seed will do the job nicely, but it's probably better to do 500 and trim the excess later.
Copy (block copy & paste) the resulting table into your word processing program (e.g. word)
Arrange them into lines with 12 5-digit numbers on each line. Double spacing, narrow (2cm) margins and a 10 point font size of a decent font makes it easier to handle
Cut off the table at 1 page of A4 & print

Then use this program for practice (I'm practicing for Grade 8, you can modify this according to your own requirements):

For Practicing Piano Scales & Arpeggios For Grade 8.

One group = one exercise. When done, cross out & move on to next group.

One line of 12 groups (i.e. 12 exercises) per day

1st digit:
1 = B
2 = C
3 = C# / Db
4 = D
5 = Eb
6 = F
7 = F# / Gb
8 = G# / Ab
9 & 0 = all legato 3rds, ignore rest of group

2nd digit
1, 2 = major scale
3, 4 = minor harmonic scale
5, 6 = minor melodic scale
7, 8 = major arpeggio
9, 0 = minor arpeggio

3rd digit
Scale:
1, 4 = octaves
2, 5 = 3rds
3, 6 = 6ths
7 = chromatic 3rds, RH on key
8 = chromatic 3rds, LH on key
9 & 0 = all legato 3rds, ignore rest of group

Arpeggio:
1, 6 = root position
2, 7 = 1st inversion
3, 8 = 2nd inversion
4, 9 = dominant 7th
5, 0 = diminished 7th

4th digit
Scales only:
odd = legato
even = staccato

5th digit
1 - 5 HS before HT
6 - 0 HT before HS, then HT again

The only other thing to say is that practicing legato 3rds is my weakest point at the moment so this is geared to bring them up often. Even I don't do them more than twice in a session - groups that generate this after the second are ignored.
It works for me!

I've done something similar to Robodoc, so if anyone would like a spreadsheet that randomly picks grade 8 piano scales, don't hesitate to ask... other good thing about this is that i can set it so that, if i need more practice on certain things, they come up more than others.

If you're not really wanting to tackle the grade 8 scales just yet, I'd not blame you .

The useful qualities of a teacher should really include that they need to understand what it is to be setting out, and adapt the style of teaching according to need. In my experience, a concert-pianist teacher may well be great for training concert pianists, but someone with a humbler background may still be the better teacher for a beginner. The best will know how to explain something three or four different ways, not always in technical terms either. "triplets are easy, they're just three notes in the time of two" is one howler I once heard, told to a kid who was struggling enough to keep the paired quavers even - it'd have been far better to have given the child a suitable phrase to think of, to get the rhythm right.

As far as practice tips go - I play a piece through, or if it's long, a section, and just note mentally where I goofed. Then I go back and try that bit again, and if it's still goofed, I take it to bits, first checking to see what the real problem is - is it fingering, or some other co-ordination problem? I'll play the bit I kept getting wrong as slowly as it takes to get right, several times. Then I play the mistake-y bit plus the bit after, to make sure that it wasn't what was coming next which was tripping me up. Again as slowly as it takes to get right every time. Then I add in the run-up. If you do it that way round, from the back first, you get rid of that mental block which says "oo-er, here comes the bit I fall over". Sometimes it'll be your left hand which has a problem, sometimes the right, sometimes it's the interplay between the two, so you'll need to adapt this idea accordingly. I mark the gremlins in my music with little brackets, and if I've not got a big chunk of practice time available, I'll just do a bit of "bracket practice" in five or ten minutes before going off to cook tea or pick up the kids - do this several times a day, and you'll be amazed at just how quick progress can be.

It's true that the technical stuff is needed to provide a solid foundation for your playing, but I'd still advise keeping it in balance with the playing of pieces, which is really what it's all about, in the end.

Muchly thanks for the advice and pointers, peeps Have taken all on board.

Robodoc you have absolutely terrified me! I've only had 4 lessons!! (Although I did play the piano for about 6 months when I was 13). But still can't sight-read .... Am currently hacking my way through a Grade 1 exam piece (Cradle Song by Gurlitt. To me it's like playing Serious Proper Grown-Up Music.

And even if I can play it right once, it doesn't mean I can reproduce it the next time I play it. Plus, I got the rhythm all wrong, so am having to re-learn the last bit. Still, gotta start somewhere .......

Just keep on plugging away at it Peaches, you'll be so much better by the summer, and then you will wonder why you found some of these pieces difficult.
Bev.

Yes that's it

Sometimes if a pupil thinks a piece is hard I'll show them some music from one of their beginner books and say, "a year ago, you thought that was hard"!

Didn't mean to frighten anybody, as a method it can be adapted to almost any combination of scales, exercises etc.

Very helpful information from Anacrusis. What I'd say is that what you really need is a concert level pianist with all the understanding of a beginner, and how things look to them that Anacrusis describes!

But it is true that most concert pianists can no longer remember how new and difficult everything seemed at the start - so maybe that beast does not exist, or is too rare for anyone to reasonably expect to find one.

Hello!
I am a 50-year old piano student and have been taking lessons for about 1 year or so. I played the piano for a few months when I was about 10 and then again for a short time when I was about 14. Then, I dropped it altogether until about 1 and a half years ago, when my daughter took her ABRSM Grade 2 exam. I started classes, took Grade 3 in June last year (Pass with D) and am planning to sit Grade 4 (together with my daughter again) next June + theory Grade 5. From my experience, I have learnt that:
- there are no short cuts and we should learn to enjoy the practising (repertory and/or technique)
- slow and conscious practice is the key to successful practice (for very factual reasons, as this is the way the brain works)
- keep an eye on relaxation (the right relaxation, though) as this is essential and safe
- practise every day helps to improve technique and this improvement is a great boost to your morale (often badly shaken by the apparently insurmountable intricacies of piano playing)
- a "day off" is not necessary but won't do anyone any harm (I personally don't take any days off, except when I travel)
- however difficult it might seem, don't leave the interpretation of a piece (dynamics, phrasing, etc) until later, thinking that once the notes have been properly learnt you'll perfect that aspect. In truth, once you've become used to the way you play the piece, it is hard to "unlearn" it and substitute the "new" way
- a reasonable amount of scale playing (arpeggioss, some broken chords, etc) are a must every day or almost every day
- there should be balanced practice of both repertoire and technique
- do not let it become an obsession (this is counter-productive in the long run) and spoils the enjoyment
- it takes time ... give yourself time but also concentrate on the small things you learn from day to day rather than seeing only what's missing
Maybe I am forgetting something but, all in all, I think this is what all this is about. As for Chang's book (Fundamentals of piano practice) I find certain tips miss the point, especially the one concerning practising fast from the very beginning and others.

Happy playing ... and most of all, enjoy the experience. Whatever attitude goes against this should be avoided.
Hope this helps

[size=3]Chang's Fundamentals of Piano Practice is a good start although a bit wordy and un-necessarily technical.
The most important thing to remember is to practice hand separate; small bits of music at a time. Then once you master playing the piece hand separate, try putting them together, slowly.
A real pianist learns the art of hand independence. The ability to have distinct control with both hands.
But the most important thing to remember is to have patience. That it takes months, even years to master a particular piece.

I was also taught to play hands separate first, but I'm actually starting to veer away from too much of that with some of my beginners. Some of my younger pianists will learn the piece separately then when they get to putting it together, feel like they are re-learning the whole piece. With quite a few now I encourage them to have a go at it slowly hands together form the start, and a lot have done very well this way! Pianists are expected to be able to sight read hands together so it might be useful to learn pieces hands together too - to get used to the idea.

This is something I have been wondering about recently when watching my daughter practise. As you say about your pupils, she could play both hands separately no problem but as soon as she tried to put them together it was as if she had never played the piece at all. I have been encouraging her to try both hands together right from the start recently and it seems to suit her much better. Since she has been playing both hands together from the start she has looked more closely at what each hand does in relation to the other and actually pays more attention to the differences in them (eg stacatto, legato) than she did when she was playing first one hand and then the other. I did have some doubts about whether I should be doing this as I have always tended to play things through both hands together and then only play separate hands the bars which are causing me problems (even fugues I tend to do one voice at a time rather than one hand at a time).

I think if your daughter is finding it easier that's great

I would practise the same way as you now, just going separately on awkward passages but mainly hands together from the start. I'm sure it's much better for my sight reading and it has improved.

If a pupil found it really difficult to start hands together I wouldn't push it, but if I see they can cope, I don't fuss too much about making them practise it separately.

[size=4][size=4]I’m sorry to say, but that may be the wrong way to go. That’s the mistake that very many beginners make. They often end-up regretting doing it this way. They come to realize that while they may know where the notes the piece never seems to be sound quite right (of course there are exceptions).

Playing hands together appears to be the obvious ways to go, after all, you’re saying, isn’t that the way you play the final product. NOT SO. There are subtleties in the melodies and harmony that will not be captured if you play hands together from the beginning. Playing HT from the beginning usually ends-up sounding like one is merely banging chords together. This way, you’re going to miss out on the many aspect of music that makes it what it’s supposed to be: beautiful. A true pianist will make the harmony and melody sound like there is more than one person sitting in front of that piano. In other words, you should be able to hear both the Melodies and Harmonies as though they are two separate musical expressions, complementing each other. You can only get that effect when you play HS. Hands independence is the goal to good piano playing and is crucial in making music rather than mere sounds.


Many people also say that when they put HT, after practicing HS, feels like they are learning the piece all over again. The mistake they make is the way they practice HS. They let the non-playing hand just hang to the side. WRONG. The non playing hand should be resting on the keyboard at all time, so as to allow the body to get used to the proper angle of playing. The non playing hand should be near those notes where it would be when the other hand is playing its part. When one has mastered playing both hands, putting them together becomes easier. Of course one must go slower at first and then rev-up to speed.

Playing HT may give the impression of learning the piece quicker, but that’s only an illusion, because often times it’s never quite played right, and one is forced to keep practicing the same piece over and over again. Practicing HS, on the other hand, will allow you to learn the piece much, much quicker and you won’t have many regrets.

As the old saying goes: you must be able to walk before you can run.

[size=4][font=Verdana]

Not necessarily.
It is possible to listen while playing (aren't we meant to anyway).
I don't think this is a one size fits all thing.
Some pieces (or sections) will benefit from some HS pratice and some will come together at least as well with HT from the start.
This will also have some variation form person to person.

I was talking about a young beginner (and I think Ad Libitum was too). In this case there are no subtlties of melody and harmony yet (most of the pieces are just one note in each hand) and it really is a problem of co-ordinating the hands and getting the hang of each hand doing something different. Having spent the best part of a year playing one hand after the other or both hands together but in unison it seems sensible to spend time on trying to acquire the new skill of hands together.

I don't think this is a one size fits all thing.

Agree. A teacher should be able to tailor the approach to the level and abilities of the student.

it seems sensible to spend time on trying to acquire the new skill of hands together.

Yes. If these skills are allowed to build up step by step I think it is usually the best approach.

Absolutely!

The first thing I explain to all my pupils about practice is that it is "regularity" rather than "volume" that counts! I would far rather a pupil do 10 - 15 minutes a day to start off with in between lessons than 1 hour on one day, and then another hour the day before the next lesson. This simply does not work at all! Even if you can't fit in this time for some reason, it is better to do 5minutes rather than none at all.

Obviously as you advance, the 15 mins will gradually increase. However, even when I was seriously studying for exams etc., I still used to adopt a strategy of lots of "short bursts" of practice over the course of the day - maybe 30mins to an hour - then have a break and come back to it with further session throughout the day. There are people that say they practice for several hours at a time, but this never worked very well for me. Of course Concert Pianists practice for many hours a day, but I would imagine that even they would develop their own practicing strategies that work best for them.

I usually encourage my younger pupils to practice while they are waiting for some daily event to happen - such as while their parents are preparing dinner, or they are dealing with a younger sibling, or perhaps while their parents are watching the news. (This was something that used to bore me to death as a child, so I always practiced when the news was on! Now I watch the news as much as my parents did - it must be an age thing!)

Good Luck with your practicing!

Actually you can simplify the whole practice thing.

Make sure that all your practice has a purpose

To expand a little:

whether you are playing a two note phrase with one hand, or playing an entire sonata from start to finish, make sure before you start that you know exactly what you are trying to achieve by doing it, how you plan to achieve it, and how you will know when (if) you have achieved it.

or to state it in a negative way:

No mindless repetition

Working this way is so interesting that you never get bored, and many hours can be spent in totally absorbed pleasure before you realise that it is time to stop for the day. And it works whether you are close to a beginner, or already quite advanced.

<--- mindful and with clear purpose

For example, my practice this afternoon (on a Steinway D!!)

Bach inventions 1 & 8, Sinfonia 7
Purpose: warming up
Method: playing through, no stops or repeats or corrections
Achievement: When I reached the end

Scales and Arpeggios, randomly selected (using a random number table and an algorithm)
Purpose: To prepare for the Grade 8 exam by not knowing what is coming next.
Method: Start by playing each scale/arpeggio as if for an exam (i.e. no false starts or restarts) with as little delay as possible. Then play slowly hands separate (if appropriate) then very fast hand separate, then hands together at a comfortable tempo (currently about 110 for most scales, about 100 for most arpeggios but I don't ususally use a metronome whilst playing them)
Achievement: For each scale/arpeggio - when played through at correct tempo with no mistakes (note or fingering or timing) and as smooth as I can make it 4 times in a row. Any mistakes and it's back to play-through no.1. For whole section - When I've completed this for 12 Randomly selected scales / arpeggios.

Mozart K 309, short section by short section (check notes from last lesson - 10 particular points to work on)
Purpose: Varies section by section. In one section it is to get the notes accurate at approximately the right speed in ornaments. In 2 sections we changed the fingering at the last lesson so it is just to get the new fingering accurate and grooved, not necessarily up to speed. In another section it is getting the dynamics just right. In yet another it is the articulation that needs practice, and so on.
Method: In each case, "work on" whatever needs doing, at the right pace (whatever that may be, usually starting slow and varying through ridiculously slow to ridiculously fast and ending at the "right" tempo), hands separate & together as required until confident, smooth and accurate. Repeat short troublesome phrases (in one case 3 notes) repeatedly once right. If something is wrong, don't do the repetitions until it has been identified and corrected. Then re-integrate into the whole section. Try to play the last few notes of the previous section and the first few of the next section with each repetition.
Achievement: Move on when section repeated at least 4 times correctly (at the agreed speed, not necessarily at full speed or even hands together).

The warm up took about 8-10 minutes. The scales took about 20 minutes. The Mozart took an hour and 10 minutes. Then they closed the shop and I had to run for a train, or I would have done much the same with the Bach Prelude and Fugue and the Gershwin, some of which I will do now before I go to bed. If I had time I would also work on an older piece in order to maintain it in the repertoire, but that will have to wait until tomorrow!

Edit - I think this was a good practice. The man in the shop thought so too.

I'm surprised they didn't just give you the keys

"Lock up there when yer done mate - oh and switch the lights out when you leave.."

Slightly tongue in cheek. In my daughter's latest piece there is one bar which she loves because of the harmony. She plays this one bar over and over and over again. Mindless repetition to me (she can already play this one bar perfectly and not the rest of the piece) but not to her - her clear purpose is that she likes hearing it.

She's a "Shiny-object polisher". Her "clear purpose" is about why she's playing it, and that's fine and good: She's making music and that's the whole point. However, it can't be a "clear purpose" in practicing, as she isn't practicing: Practice should be about planning, making and measuring progress , not continuing to polish already perfected material. When she plays that bar she's not making progress and therefore not really practicing any more.

You might try putting it to her that she can play that bar as much as she likes but it won't count a note or a second towards practice, any more than standing on the piano lid would count towards "spending time on the piano". Put simply, if she spends half an hour a day just playing that one bar, and does nothing else, at the end of the week she will have done no practice. That one bar will still be perfect but the rest of the piece, by neglect, will be even worse than it was at the last lesson. Her teacher won't be impressed and ultimately neither will she. She will become disheartened and lose motivation and who will be surprised!

To tell the truth I'm not too bothered about it at the moment. She is usually a fairly efficient practiser (for an eight-year-old) it's just that we are on holiday this week (and last week too) and I am heartily sick of this one bar about ten times in a row every time she walks past the piano. Her usual teacher was away before the holidays and she had a replacement who only asked her to work on half the piece - as my daughter pointed out she obviously didn't realise that two weeks holiday were coming up as no way was this enough to keep her occupied. The first half is perfect (her favourite bar is the last bar of this first half) so I have been encouraging her to learn the rest of the piece. However, she is not really sure that she should be doing this as her teacher didn't ask her to which is why she is not practising it very seriously and keeps going back to her favourite bar.

You should try living with me! I may have spent 4 hours playing one bar last saturday In my defence, it was 'proper practice' - i think that must be my record for how long it took to sort out one bar, but i did get there in the end.

I don't know, I think you might be preferable . O.K. you said 4 hours but you also said only one Saturday, not every day for the past twelve days and if it took you four hours to sort out one bar presumably you weren't playing it in identical fashion every single time

Sarah!

Was it piano? Were you trying to play it with your feet?!

My family would have killed me after an hour of it

Maybe it was one of these bars:






<--- spends four hours on one bar of Liszt

Eeeek! ....... **eats words**

I'd still be ready for the hills after 4 hours of it though

Erm...no, a normal (but annoyingly tricky one note per hand at a time semiquavery bit)

I think my family were starting to get fed up with it after the first couple of hours, they suggested maybe i practiced something else for a bit, but they know what they say wont make a difference, so just let me get on with it in the end.

Don't get disheartened it will all be worth it when you get really good. A perhaps slightly simpler version of robodoc's scale idea is to write all the scales you want to learn down on little pieces of paper then put them in a little bowl on top of the piano. Then pick out a scale and play it and if you play it perfectly then put it into a seperate bowl. If you don't play it perfectly then put it back into the same bowl. This means that you identify the scales which you have the problems with and means that they are practiced as much as they need. This also has the added bonus that you can use brightly coloured pens or pencils which always spures me on. also if you can get the thumb under thing nailed then I think its a big step in the right direction.

I'm currently spending an hour a day on 3 notes by Mozart (just can't seem to get that acciaccatura right, however it's spelt!) Just as well I'm on headphones or the spiders would be hanging themselves, never mind the family!!


Better still - don't put it in the other bowl at all until you've dissected it down and worked out what the problem is, played it very slowly hands separate until the problem has gone, then go up to superspeed hands separate, then back to slow hands together, then up to speed hands together, accurate and reliable all the time and repeatably so. Then and only then, move on.

BTW: Oboecop??? I like it, but do I feel myself imitated and thereby sincerely flattered??

It is true that I couldn't believe that I was the only oboist to think of it. I assume that's why you chose your's - because you're an oboist.

Just read your blue writing. Not an oboist then.