I decided to try another question from the 'Big 6' book (Question 2 of part 1a), and so am starting a new thread to post the print screen of that in, so that the other thread doesn't get even more confusing! Jason_Piano and Teigr, I've tried to bare in mind your advice about consecutives...hopefully I've done it right. I did get a bit confused with this one though, as I wasn't sure if the end sounded right...




Thanks

Hi singerpianist!

I'd quite like to follow this thread (lost track on the other one!) but I find it very difficult to see the image on my laptop screen. Would it be too cheeky to ask if you could save it as, say, 75% instead of 125% and re-post??? Just ignore me if this is a problem!

Yep sure, I've just resized it for you....is it better now?

Yes that's perfect, thank you, I can see the whole screen now!

No problem!

your VI- V- I cadence at the end needs reworking there are consecutive 5ths between the bass notes and the melody between chords VI and V try perhaps a Ic V I there

also your IVc chord doesn't sound too convincing perhaps in first inversion?

Oh no, how did I miss those consecutives in the final cadence?!? I'm pretty sure I checked them too! I think I should give up for today now and try again tomorrow!

iib - Ic - V - I is a very useful cadential progression. (sometimes you don't need the Ic and it still works)

Sorry to sound so negative, but this harmonisation is not any better.

I shall refer to the measure numbers as they appear in the original post.

Here are the errors that I have found:
m. 2 The progression vb-iib-ic is illogical.
m. 3 The progression ivb-VIb is poor.
m. 3 The chord vc is used incorrectly.
m. 4 The chord ivc is used incorrectly.
m. 5 As others have noted, there are consecutive 5ths in the progression VI-v.


Here are some general suggestions:
1) The v chord should be substituted with V throughout this harmonisation. That is, you should use the raised leading note D#.
2) You should never use second-inversion triads haphazardly. This seems to be a problem in the D-major harmonisation as well. Second-inversion triads are permissible only if they are passing, neighbouring, or cadential.
3) In this E-minor melody, it seems like you should show one chord every two beats, except in the last measure where you can show one chord per beat.
4) The texture is inconsistent in your harmonisation. It would be better to show a three- or four-voice texture throughout.


Singerpianist, it seems to me that you have no clue how to harmonise a melody correctly. If you are going to sit the Grade 6 theory exam any time soon, I suggest that you get some extra lessons and tutoring ASAP.

The example probably shows where to put a chord so there is no choice here.
I don't think that the texture issue is a problem here as for exam purposes it's not actually necessary to include notes on the stave. Chord indications are sufficient.

I had the impression that Singerpianist was more or less just starting out with this and working mostly on her own.

here are some rules for harmonization

- avoid consecutive 5th and 8ves!
- never double the leading note as it always wants to rise
- raise the 7th in a minor key
- look for common cadential progressions (listed above) might be an idea to start with the cadences first.
- double the bass note in a second inversion chord (2nd inversion chords used are I or V only)
- chord VII is best used in first inversion particularly in a major key where it is a diminished triad
- use substitutions where appropriate i.e if you find you have lots if chord I then use a chord VI etc.
- never omit the third

and most importantly play the chords! do they sound convincing? if not try alternatives such as using inversions/ substitutions.

Hi there!

Just realised this may be my first ever time replying on a theory thread

Just to add something else that might help, with the harmony issue aside. As a pianist yourself, sit down and play this and you'll notice that the chords jump around a lot and the left hand might feel a bit awkward. If you have a look at a hymn book maybe, or some Bach chorales, you'll see that the left hand is quite easy to sight read in terms of the fingering of the chords in the bass. They would probably be quite close together and quite easy to reach from one chord to another. When you write your harmonies its good to make it "playable" too - by a person and not just a computer

Hope that's useful

A bit more about the reasoning behind this one - the leading note wants to resolve to the tonic (in the same part). If you double the leading note, you've got an octave (or a compound octave). As both instances are going to move to the tonic, this means you'll get consecutive octaves.


A few more rules:
Don't double the third in a major chord.
Avoid overlapping and crossing parts.
Don't have gaps of more than an octave between adjacent parts, apart from between T and B.

Don't try to take all these rules in at once. You need a step-by-step intro to harmony, with explanations about each rule and what it means and how it affects what you can do. There's no point knowing that you mustn't have consecutive 5ths unless you know what consecutive 5ths are! (That came up on your other thread yesterday.) So take it one step at a time and make sure that you understand what the rules mean, not just what they say.
Then you need to build a small collection of standard progressions. On the whole, you want to avoid using chords like iii, vii and second inversions outside of stock progressions.

Once you've seen them all in small examples, you can start to think about how to apply them to real situations.
Start with hymnbook harmony and once you're confident about that, get a copy of Riemenschneider.
When you come to doing Bach chorale harmony, the fact that Bach breaks the rules is no defence. What you're expected to do is produce something that follows the rules.

Don't try to do figured bass realisation until you've got the hang of hymnbook harmony.
The figures do tell you exactly which notes you need to use, but you need to be confident about how to arrange them in ways that don't break the rules.

Eventually, you're also going to need to be able to work out which notes are harmony notes and which aren't and how to add melodic decoration for yourself, but you need to get the basics sorted out first.

T.

also a word of warning about decoration: check for consecutives in these too particularly passing notes (which allows step wise movement up/down to a note of the next chord from the first)

Yes, you're right sbhoa, the example says where you have to put the chords. And you're also right in saying that I've just started looking at grade 6 (within the last month or two) and am trying to teach myself!

Organ_dummy, I'm not planning on taking the exam anytime soon...I was just posting these on here to see if I was on the right track (as I have no teacher to mark my work etc)...I now know I'm not on the right track so need to spend a lot more time on this.

Yes, this is why you need to have the basics rock solid before you try any of the fancy stuff. The more complicated you make it, the more ways you have to stuff something up.


So, here's a suggested plan of attack:

Learn the basic rules (with simple isolated examples).

Learn some standard progressions.

Start working straightforward examples ("hymnbook harmony" - and yes, hymnbooks are great sources of practice material).

When you're confident with that, move on to things like figured bass realisation, melodic decoration and Bach chorales.



Don't worry if it takes a while. The more secure you are with the basics, the quicker and easier you'll get to grips with the rest when the time comes.

T.

Teigr's suggestion is not true.

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant about writing one chord every two beats. It is possible to harmonise every note of the melody while maintaining the harmonic rhythm of one chord every two beats. This can be done by using a different position on the even-numbered beats.

OK, that's not a hard and fast rule, but it's best avoided until you're more sure of what you're doing.
Bach does it often enough, but Bach breaks pretty much all the rules. :-) The trouble is that when you're doing basic hymnbook harmony, people expect you to follow all the guidelines to prove that you know about them. Bach didn't need to prove anything to anyone.

I've doubled the 3rd in harmony coursework before and it was fine. But I did it for good reasons and knowing full well that I was doing it. (It was an awkward bit where there was absolutely no way to do it that didn't break at least one of the guidelines, so it was a case of which one(s) to break and which worked best in context. A friend of mine didn't double the 3rd but had consecutive instead 12ths and was pulled up for it.)

Once you get into stylistic harmony you find that a lot of what were "rules" when you first started basic harmony relax somewhat and become "guidelines" or even "suggestions".

T.

Concerning the issue of doubling, the only rule that I give to my undergraduate students is:

Never double a tendency tone; anything else may be doubled.

FYI, tendency tones include leading note, chordal 7th, chordal 5th in a diminished seventh chord, chromatically altered pitches, a note that is dissonant against the bass (i.e. the tonic note in the Ic chord).

Interestingly I learn't all rules about harmonisation through Bach chorales. The only rule that Bach breaks is the one about the leading note. He tends to let it fall a third at cadential points.

also avoid augmented/ diminished leaps and those of a seventh as it is not good style.

Diminished leaps are acceptable. Augmented leaps are not, unless they occur in the middle of a harmonic sequence.

A minor-seventh leap is tolerable if the melodic line turns back in the opposite direction after the leap. The same is true for tonal counterpoint.

A major-seventh leap should be avoided at all cost, unless one is aiming for a shocking, unusual effect.

In the V7-I progression, the leading note dropping a third (instead of rising a step) is very common as this is the only way to make the tonic chord complete without creating consecutive 5ths. I don't think of it as breaking any rule because it happens so often. Note that the leading tone may drop a third only when it is in the alto or tenor.

they are acceptable but they do not sound convincing. try playing the chords with these types of leaps.

Why not?

I think the following melodic segments (or their transpositions) happen quite a lot in tonal music:

1) E4-F4-B3-C4 (with a downward leap of a diminished fifth)

2) G3-F4-E4-D4-C4 (with an upward leap of a minor seventh)

I don't want to sound mean, but on harmony and counterpoint, I am very confident that I know way more than you. I have been teaching this stuff for many years.

I was taught that augmented rising intervals are not allowed, but if you invert it, it becomes a diminished falling interval, and needs to turn back in the opposite direction after the leap (like organ dummy's first example). I must have been taught that the upward leap of a minor 7th needs to fall as I would automatically do that.

Singerpianist - have you tried the books ABC of Harmony by Roy Wilkinson? I found them very useful when going over the rules of harmony. There are 3 of them (A, B and C !!!!) I used A a lot when working for Grade 6 theory. They are cheaper than the Anna Butterworth book, and have nice little summaries to remind you of the rules of harmony - no answers though.

No I've not seen those books...but I'll look out for the them, thanks

you probably have but I have gone through the grades and looked at many examples of baroque counterpoint and found that leaps of a fifth, fourth, sixth and third are the most common.

Sorry, I'm confused. I thought we were talking about diminished and augmented 4ths/5ths and minor 7ths, and their resolutions, not 3rds, 4ths, 5ths and 6ths in general.

Hi I did my grade 6 theory last year. Firstly I should probably explain what this question involves for people who are not familliar with its format. You are given the melody and underneath the staves are asterisks where you are meant to indicate chords and their positions. There is no way to change the harmonic rhythm as it is dictated beforehand. Also doubling the third is not for the most part an issue as the only part that you are writing exactly is the bass (and even that you are just implying by what chords and positions you add) but without getting into a massive discussion about it I would say that the third probably shouldn't be doubled in a major chord in this question as there's usually a better option.

Are you sure you have to put the other notes in I'm sure when I did it you could just write in the chord names. This means that you don't have to worry about consecutives in the inner parts although its worth just lightly penciling in the base line to make sure that you don't have consecutives between the base line and the melody. Would you like to hear my method for completing question 1a in grade 6.
1) establish the key (major or minor) and write it down just so you don't forget and have easy reference.
2) decide what your phrase structure and draw on big phrase marks - again it just makes it easier.
3) Once you've done this put in cadences at the end of the phrases. I found that often the melody implied a specific cadence for instance if you have leading note to tonic in the melody then they're probably expecting a perfect cadence. if its tonic to leading note then they're probably expecting an imperfect cadence etc.
4) these things can be done with little creative power and mean that you already have a substantial part of the question done.
5) the first chord of the excersise, if it starts on a down beat will nearly always be chord I. If it starts with an up beat which loads of them seem to do, then you should probably make the up beat either Ib or V (although if the melody has the third I'd go for V to avoid doubling the 3rd) and then make the down beat chord I
6) Then I would look at the bits where there is more than one note to a chord. See if they make up a broken chord, if they do then you should use the chord that is broken as it were.
7) Next look for opportunities to use standard progressions they usually throw a few in to see whether you know them or not.
8) Now there should only be a couple of chords left to do (and if your lucky, none). I think for these you should try to use chords I IV and V as much as possible.
9) I wouldn't claim to know all the set proggressions but I wouldn't feel confident in using the following chords anywhere in the piece: iic, iii, iiib, iiic, vic, viic.

I'm sorry I've rambled on so much. I hope it helps. There are thousands of "rules" for harmony that have been developed but I found that this way of doing things helped to avoid breaking most of them.

I like Oboecop's ideas. Indeed, I tell my own students more or less the same thing for melody harmonisation. But then I put quite a bit of emphasis on harmonic function. I don't make my students memorise common progressions. Instead I tell them to consider the function of every chord that they use. In that way, they can avoid writing progressions that are illogical, such as ii-I. I also encourage them to think in two or more levels of harmonic structure, e.g. I-V4/3-I6 on a local level is an expanded tonic on a more remote level. Essentially, a typical tonal piece is an expansion of the progression I-predominant-V-I.

That does make sense. although i don't think it does any harm to know the really common ones like Ic V I just in case someone mentions them you know what they're talking about.

Yes, I agree that students should know common progressions such as Ic-V-I. But again, I don't make them memorise. Instead, I emphasise the importance of recognising certain melodic patterns.

Hi,

Thanks for your advice, it sounds really helpful! Yes, you're right I only have to write the chord names and not write in the chords themselves on the staves, but I just thought I would on here so that people wouldn't have to bother working them out...but I now realise it was more trouble than it was worth seeing as I wrote lots of them incorrectly anyway!!

I will do a little more research and then use that and what you've said to try another exercise! So there'll be another of my (awful) answers up here soon!!


Laura

I look forward to it!