Dear experts in teaching composition.

Assume that you have in front of you a willing student, with good keyboard skills, a reasonable ear, and a sound grounding in basic harmony and counterpoint.

Your task is to recommend ONE BOOK that will help them transform their amateurish piano compositions into well-crafted masterpieces.

<------ unwittingly hammers out non-sequiturs, feeble modulations, and diabolica in musica

Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues.

Possibly because they are incredibly well crafted, and anlysing how Bach achieves a particular effect might give you some ideas as to how you could do the same or similar...

for example, his use of harmony and harmonic progressions, and the voicing of parts.

It's also another way of giving the same advice as "learn alongside a master" - and they don't come much more master-ly than Bach! Mind you, a living teacher/composer/mentor would be able to advise in what might well be a more accessible manner...

The right people would agree though:

* "The immortal god of harmony" -- Ludwig van Beethoven
* "The most stupendous miracle in all music" -- Richard Wagner
* "Study Bach: there you will find everything" -- Johannes Brahms
* "To strip human nature until its divine attributes are made clear, to inform ordinary activities with spiritual fervor, to give wings of eternity to that which is most ephemeral; to make divine things human and human things divine; such is Bach, the greatest and purest moment in music of all time" -- Pablo Casals
* "O you happy sons of the North who have been reared at the bosom of Bach, how I envy you" -- Giuseppe Verdi
* "If one were asked to name one musician who came closest to composing without human flaw, I suppose general consensus would choose Johann Sebastian Bach" -- Aaron Copland

im assuming the latter is a more recent composer, as opposed to bach who was a few hundred years ago. If that is true, i think bach was a great composer for his time.

'Bach was good for his time'

David, you should print that off and stick it in a sealed envelope to be read by yourself in 20 years time. I agree with you about Howells - love his stuff, but really, dismissing JSB as an also ran - that's hilarious!

Are not Beethoven, Wagner, Brahms, Verdi or Copland the right people?

This isn't germane to the original topic, so I'll shut up now.

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[quote name='Dr J' post='672598' date='Mar 4 2008, 06:24 PM']
Bach's 48 Preludes and Fugues.
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Why on earth would that help?
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It's also another way of giving the same advice as "learn alongside a master" - and they don't come much more master-ly than Bach!
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I disagree with that

Deleted (I leave it to your imagination)

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Aren't the meanderings and tangents of forum discussions marvellous?!


<------ struggling to understand structure of "good in their time" Preludes and Fugues

OK, try this one: Schoenberg's Fundamentals of Musical Composition

I must say that I do agree 100% about studying J.S. He really isn't an "also ran" David. Go listen to the Mass in B minor and then come back again and try to dismiss him as being nowt special.

I agree. In fact, I have recommended this book a while ago on this forum.

But I think that composition books, no matter how good, can only serve as teaching aids. They provide useful tips for beginning students. Studying the masterpieces by composers of all eras provide further ideas. In the end, however, the craft can only be learned through composing and having the music performed. I agree with some of David's opinions.

So you didn't describe Bach as being "nowt special" but you did say that he isn't "that amazing". I just cannot agree that HH is so much more skilled in the art of composition. Ah well......

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A marginal improvement.

The idea of going direct to the composer's works is both obvious, and OK so far as it goes (though my choice would be Beethoven, and not Bach).

But just as it is not easy to learn how to construct a building (or anything for that matter) just by looking at the finished article, so it is difficult to see how to construct a piece of music without some knowledge of the craftsman's tools, the sequence of work, and the scaffolding that is taken away when the construction is complete.

I had hoped that those of you that have read many books on composition and theory could recommend the one best fopr the level I described.

<----- Gives up in exasperation. Plays semi-random compositions with redoubled vigour

Sorry Tom - derogatory comments about JSB can't be ignored - your thread got Bached!

There must be some university types out there studying composition who can help....maybe they just haven't called by yet....or maybe there is no such volume in existence and you're on our own.....


*goes off to hack through WTK yet again*

Specifically for someone wishing to write for the piano, study the piano music of Chopin, Debussy, Messiaen, late Brahms, Ravel and Mussorgsky (in rough order of importance); also the chamber music with piano of Debussy (duo sonatas with violin and 'cello), Ravel (piano trio, violin sonata, "Tzigane") and Messiaen ("Le merle noir" for flute & piano). JSB wrote such great music that some of it works reasonably well on the modern piano, but that's not where he intended it to be played.

Because there aren't many books on composition. We compose. We learned not by looking at the finished article but taking it to pieces and by following example. Books on theory can help with the tools of composing but the composing itself has to come from you. I fear that if you hope the answer lies in books that you may be disappointed.

Take a look at my thread 'Bibliography of Composition books' on the third page of this section.

I still maintain that, ultimately, the best way to learn is to study music itself. Schoenberg realised this and that's why most of his book Fundamentals of Musical Composition contains musical examples, not text.

Yes. Yes. That is what I want. A book to help with the tools. When do I need scaffolding. How do I build it. What are the different ways of mapping out a piece before filling in the details. ???

<--- still engaged in futile attempt to figure it all out from the finished articles

Tom, I believe Stanford's "Musical Composition" is regarded as a classic by many (though probably the same conventional types who think Bach was a great composer). I haven't got round to reading it properly but I notice that he stresses the importance, for a pianist, of learning to think in terms of pure intervals rather than equal temperament.

A very useful source. Thanks. But there is no way I am going to read/study all of those books. Is Schoenberg's "Fundamentals" the top recommendation then?

<--- trying to find a composition by Scoenberg that he actually likes!

It depends exactly what you're looking for.

Schoenberg's book deals mainly with form, in that it starts (from what I remember) with the construction of a phrase and finishes by taking a look at the sonata.

In what style is it you wish to compose? Because what book you ought to buy is contingent on the style of music you wish to write.

Short (1 -5 minutes) pieces of chamber music and solo piano music in neo-Romantic style.

In that case, Schoenberg's book you will find useful.

Obviously studying the piano and chamber music of Romantic composers will prove useful.

By 'neo-Romantic' do you mean a pastiche or a composition that uses Romantic ideas and aesthetics whilst having definitely 'modern' (or post-modern) aspects to it?

Thanks again.
Trying to create create the latter ... but probably ending up with the former!

I have no serious ambitions in composition, but I am sure that doing it and understanding the problems "from the inside" will help me to play better

<-- devours Chopin, Liszt (missing out half the notes), Glinka, Balakirev, Mendelsohn, Schumann, Scriabin ...

Speaking as a person who feels himself more or less exactly in the same position as Mad Tom, I have been trying to find a good book for helping me write compositions for ages, a book I found was called "Musical Composition" (an inspired title) By Reginald Smith Brindle. the only trouble is that I don't know whether the book is still in print. We had a copy of it in our college library but I haven't been able to find it anywhere in the shops. If you can find it, it gives you an idea for things like chromaticism and impressionism and it is written to student composers and seems to be quite accessible. If you like this book he also wrote a book on serialism which is really interesting although I don't know what your thoughts on serialism are and again don't think its still in print. I hope this helps.

Amazon.co.uk have it. Market place sellers, anyway.

Greetings, Mad Tom.

I'm not sure if anyone has already recommended Blatter's INSTRUMENTATION/ORCHESTRATION - and in all honesty I can't be bothered to wade through the posts about whether or not Bach was better than Howells to find out.

But if they haven't, it's the best book on how to write for instruments. I'm not sure how any book can help you actually to compose - I think that's down to your own creativity. I only know that Schoenberg, Rimsky-Korsakov, Piston and all those other guys have a layer of dust on them, and Blatter is coming apart at the seams. Draw your own conclusions.

Oh - I like Cooke's THE LANGUAGE OF MUSIC too.

Hope this helps.

Laurie

PS: I like Howells AND Bach. Give me a fence, and I'll sit on it...

Too late! I just ordered Shoenberg and Smith-Brindle on Amazon. Maybe in a couple of months

Yes - my 25 year old copy is coming apart at the seams

I got this book last year - it's the one my teacher recommends as being the most accessible for those who are relatively advanced theory-wise but not wanting anything too heavy. It gives an overview of different styles rather than dealing in depth with any particular one. He says in the introduction "This book is designed for school-leavers or the first two years of a university course. The subject matter is designed to be covered in two years and thus provides a base for subsequent expansion." In other words, he touches on fugue, harmony, counterpoint and other elements of composition, but points out that supplemental reading on specific elements will be necessary.


PS. If there are any people at my level (Grade 5) reading this, I found that most of it was well above my head at this stage.

Mad Tom

You could consider 'Analysis through Composition: Principles of the Classical Style' by Nicolas Cook.

I used this text for year 1 undergraduate composition (as a student not teacher). It's quite practical, with many assignments to try if you wish (including some for keyboard).