Wondered if anyone can help.
I'm a bit puzzled how a whole tone scale is made up.

I have an example of C, D, E, #F (bG), bA, bB, C and

C, D, E, #F, #G, bB, C

I realise the notes use enharmonic equivalents, but why do the two examples vary ?
One is using bA instead of #G.

Is it just a matter of choice ?

Am I making sense ?

Thanks in advance,

Fiona

Fiona - As far as I know they are both valid. Because there are only 7 notes in each "octave" of a whole tone scale, there's always going to be one letter missing, I guess. I don't know if that helps .....?

Maggie

Hi Maggie,

Yes. That helps.

It was kind of obvious but seemed too obvious if you know what I mean !

Is whole tone scaled not really used a lot or is it just me that hasn't heard of it until GVI theory ?

Thanks for your reply.

Fiona

Is it popular - mmmmm well I always find "alternative" scales, modes, etc interesting, but it seems to be the sort of scale you know about, rather than do anything with. You wouldn't necessarily have met it before.

One or two composers tried using it as a basis for composition (kind of impressionist era, early 20th century, Debussy, Ravel, those kind of guys, you probably knew that) but it didn't seem to take off after that. I remember asking my head of music at high school why other composers hadn't picked up the baton, as it were, of the whole tone scale. She said that it was limited because there were only two different whole-tone scales. I accepted that at the time, but later wondered why if you can have a diatonic scale starting on any note of the octave, can you not have a similar number of whole- tone scales. I suppose it may be because they end up having most of the same notes in common. but I'm not certain that's the answer. Sorry it's bit vague!

Maggie

I've had a look in Grove Online: the scale contains the same notes if you transpose it more than once:

C–D–E–F#–G#–A#(=Bb)–C

Db–Eb–F–G–A–B(=Cb)–Db

then up another semitone would be:

D–E–F#–G#–A#(=Bb)–C-D

so it's exactly the same scale with the same notes that just starts in a different place and therefore writing in that 'key' so to speak would be the same thing. (Incidentally these are the spellings given in Grove, except the last one which I derived from the first...). I don't think that the spelling really matters, I suppose technically the correct scale, being defined as splitting the octave into seven identical sections, would land on frequencies which aren't quite precisely notes anyway...

I know what you mean Maggie with the diatonic.

I've seen whole tone scale examples in Debussy now you mention it.

All the different scales and modes are something new for me at GVI as I don't remember GV having a great deal if any at all on the paper.

I know they exist, but don't know how they are constructed etc.

Fiona

QUOTE (Fiona @ Sep 29 2004, 04:21 PM)

I know they exist, but don't know how they are constructed etc.

They're quite easy to construct: pick a note to start on and then go up a tone from there, that's the next note; then another tone etc. until you get to the note you started on (but an octave higher obviously!).

Are you doing grade 6 theory in November?

Hi Anotherpianist,

Yes. I'm taking it November !

I get it now !

Just seemed a bit to obvious to be as simple as that

Fiona

QUOTE (Fiona @ Sep 29 2004, 04:29 PM)

Yes. I'm taking it November !

Good luck, I'm sure you'll be fine.

Thanks Another Pianist for looking in Grove -

QUOTE

it's exactly the same scale with the same notes that just starts in a different place and therefore writing in that 'key' so to speak would be the same thing.

That ties in with what my head of music said many years ago I guess. Thanks.

I had a look in two big fat music -history -reference books and found almost nothing ! - one mentioned that a whole-tone scale has no feeling of tonality. (That would be why it lends itself to a "drifting" impressionistic feel.)

Another book is a little more helpful and cites Debussy's Voiles (2nd prelude of the first book) as being the clearest example, (except for one passage of 6 bars which is written in the pentatonic scale).

It also states (which seems obvious now, but I hadn't looked at it like this) that the two whole-tone scales superimposed make up the 12-tone scale or tone-row, much used by later composers.

Interesting stuff.

Maggie

Thank you !

Just the usual nerves thing !

Gets worse with age

Fiona

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Sep 29 2004, 04:39 PM)

...one mentioned that a whole-tone scale has no feeling of tonality. (That would be why it lends itself to a "drifting" impressionistic feel.)

It does state that the missing perfect fifth from tonic to dominant and the missing minor second from leading note to tonic cause the feeling of the absence of tonality, which seems to make sense.

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Sep 29 2004, 04:39 PM)

It also states (which seems obvious now, but I hadn't looked at it like this) that the two whole-tone scales superimposed make up the 12-tone scale or tone-row, much used by later composers.

It's often the missed 'obvious' observations that make things make sense. I hadn't noticed that either, but it does explain why there are only two versions also. Thinking about it another way which now seems obvious, starting a tone higher is going to make a whole tone scale that's the same! Observing these things makes for a better understanding though.

QUOTE (Fiona @ Sep 29 2004, 04:39 PM)

Gets worse with age

That's a shame I was hoping it was going to get better! I never find that theory exams are as nerve wracking as practical ones: at least you have a rubber if things go wrong .

You don't just use them in theory. Us flautists have to play the two scales for Grade 8. And I find it a nightmare! They sound like nothing on Earth, and I always try and slip back into a more 'normal' scale form!

clarinettists do as well!

To start with, I thought that since there are many examples of diatonic scales that have most of their notes in common, it ought to work similarly - I knew it probably didn't, but couldn't see why!

Thinking about it, I suppose the lack of a tonal centre is the reason that two whole-tone scales with the same notes but starting from different points don't have separate identity. The difference in starting pitch doesn't make much difference at all when there's no home sound. So my head of music did make sense, I just didn't see the whole picture (do we ever??) !

Good luck Fiona with your theory.

Maggie

Thanks Maggie.

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Sep 29 2004, 04:52 PM)

QUOTE (Fiona @ Sep 29 2004, 04:39 PM) Gets worse with age That's a shame I was hoping it was going to get better! I never find that theory exams are as nerve wracking as practical ones: at least you have a rubber if things go wrong .

I know.

The theory isn't too bad as no one is watching or listening !
I think I just worry. Making sure I've covered everything even though I know I have!

But the practicals are definatley the worst !!!


Fiona

QUOTE (Fiona @ Sep 29 2004, 05:46 PM)

But the practicals are definatley the worst !!!

oh yes indeedy!

In fact this has been really exciting in a way - because I think I have found the answer to that question I asked my head of music when I was about 16!

The thing I couldn't understand was why the whole-tone scale seemed (to me then) to be some kind of dead-end: tried out by Debussy and others, but then not really used. That didn't seem to make sense and I couldn't accept it was the end of a road, that no-one else picked it up and ran with it.

But if it's seen as part of the progression to the 12note system - that's the missing link. So perhaps it did go somewhere. Much more satisfactory! Thanks everyone.

Maggie

Doesn't that just give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling. Solving a mystery that been bothering you for years!

QUOTE

But the practicals are definatley the worst !!!

Oh yes definetly, in written exams I can retreat into my special super focuses state where a bomb could be dropped and I wouldn't notice. Music exams though, well, I have to stay in toutch with my emtions for playing with expression, and most of my emotions in any exam (till they get switched off) are of absolute panic!

QUOTE

Doesn't that just give you a nice warm fuzzy feeling. Solving a mystery that been bothering you for years!

Oh yes! So nice to have had a "hunch" at 16 or so that turned out to be right in a sort of way.

I' ve just got home from singing at my"choir church" for St Michael's day, and I recounted the whole-tone scale story to a fellow-soprano / music teacher afterwards over supper - it rang bells with her too - most interesting. Music too high - so I'm hoarse but happy. Oh, and we had the Widor Toccato as a final treat.

M

Whey hey !

Mystery solved !

I'm like you Maggie. I just thought it was people like Debussy and Ravel that tried it but didn't take off.
So I'm left thinking - whats the point to Whole tone scale ?

I shall have a think about the explanation posted as it's not sunk in yet !

Thanks everyone.

Fiona

I always find that, I'm not happy with anything until I know why and what's the point. Still it's good to know that when you understand something that it's a good thorough understanding; I must have been fun to teach at school !

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Sep 30 2004, 12:04 PM)

I always find that, I'm not happy with anything until I know why and what's the point. Still it's good to know that when you understand something that it's a good thorough understanding; I must have been fun to teach at school !

That is just like me !!!

When I was at college, I used to drive my electronics teacher mad !
Now it's my piano teacher instead !

Fiona

QUOTE (maggiemay @ Sep 29 2004, 04:39 PM)

Thanks Another Pianist for looking in Grove - QUOTE it's exactly the same scale with the same notes that just starts in a different place and therefore writing in that 'key' so to speak would be the same thing. That ties in with what my head of music said many years ago I guess. Thanks. I had a look in two big fat music -history -reference books and found almost nothing ! - one mentioned that a whole-tone scale has no feeling of tonality. (That would be why it lends itself to a "drifting" impressionistic feel.) Another book is a little more helpful and cites Debussy's Voiles (2nd prelude of the first book) as being the clearest example, (except for one passage of 6 bars which is written in the pentatonic scale). It also states (which seems obvious now, but I hadn't looked at it like this) that the two whole-tone scales superimposed make up the 12-tone scale or tone-row, much used by later composers. Interesting stuff. Maggie

Interesting to learn a bit about whole tones scales and, although it's perhaps a bit off topic.......

This reminds me of diminished 7th chords. These are all made up of minor thirds on top of each other, and so the first inversion of (for example) C dim. seventh chord is identical E flat dim 7th in root postion. This means that they are only 7 dim 7th chords.

This ambiguity lets dim. 7th chords disturb the sense of key, there are a in Mozart's D minor fantasy, and they really contribute to the whole atmosphere of a piece.

Yes, it reminded me of those too: surely there are only four really not seven aren't there? Starting on C, C#, D and E: then the remainder would be inversions of these since Eb is a minor third above C, E above C# etc.

QUOTE

This ambiguity lets dim. 7th chords disturb the sense of key, there are a in Mozart's D minor fantasy, and they really contribute to the whole atmosphere of a piece.

I seem to think when I was studying harmony dim 7th chords were sometimes seen as 'pivot' chords, because they could help move between different keys. So I guess they can be regarded as either disturbing and de-stabilising, or as a useful crossroads, (spaghetti junction even ??) depending on what the composer is wanting to do. I'd never before looked at how many different ones there are though.

I love the unlikely series of chords that the whole-tone scale produces - they can have a shifting quality too.

Maggie

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Sep 30 2004, 01:01 PM)

Yes, it reminded me of those too: surely there are only four really not seven aren't there?  Starting on C, C#, D and E: then the remainder would be inversions of these since Eb is a minor third above C, E above C# etc.

It is true that if you count inversions as equivalent*, there are only three ways to play them on a twelve note keyboard. However, there have been keyboards with more than 12 notes per octave since before 1600, IIRC, and standard notation, which has 35 named pitch classes (seven letters, each of which combines with natural, flat, sharp, double flat and double sharp) distinguishes 27 legal ways to spell a diminished seventh. The other nine roots, Cb, Cbb, Dbb, Ebb, Fb, Gbb, Abb and Bbb, would require triple flats in the chord.

* Note that C, Eb, Gb, Bbb, is a diminished seventh; its first inversion, Eb, Gb, Bbb, C, is an augmented sixth. On a 17th C. keyboard with split black keys, the first chord would have intervals 5,5,5,5, the second one 5,5,5,4.

QUOTE (kenm @ Sep 30 2004, 05:53 PM)

* Note that C, Eb, Gb, Bbb, is a diminished seventh; its first inversion, Eb, Gb, Bbb, C, is an augmented sixth.

Sorry, not augmented but major sixth. On the piano you can only tell what the chord was when it resolves. For example, four major chords may follow what looks like Cdim, and their spelling* determines how it must be spelt so that all parts move by diatonic intervals:

C Eb Gb A -> Bb D F
C Eb Gb Bbb -> Db F Ab
C D# F# A -> E G# B
C Eb F# A -> G B D

* Which also can vary on the piano. The second sequence could be spelt:

B# D# F# A -> C# E# G#

All the above sequences would sound better laid out in open positions, and with carefully choice of inversion, than in the closed positions shown.

Yes I'm a pianist so fully tempered, so I'll stick with the four! Although I can appreciate that theoretically more do exist. They are pivot chords as they can be approached from any of the keys of the notes in them (it's the same chord in relation to any of those keys, i.e. minor thirds built from the tonic in some inversion) but can also resolve to any of the minor triads of the notes in the chord thus allowing transition between those keys. Interesting stuff.

QUOTE

Interesting stuff.

Scary stuff!

Its going far beyond the comprehension of poor li'le me with my Grade-5-theory-half-forgotten-never-put-into-practise knowledge of chords!

QUOTE

QUOTE (AnotherPianist @ Sep 30 2004, 12:04 PM) I always find that, I'm not happy with anything until I know why and what's the point. Still it's good to know that when you understand something that it's a good thorough understanding; I must have been fun to teach at school !   That is just like me !!! When I was at college, I used to drive my electronics teacher mad !   Now it's my piano teacher instead ! Fiona

I'm a bit like that... I must drive my viola teacher crazy!