I am playing at around grade 8 standard (exam soon), but am still struggling with basic counting and rhythm skills. Intellectually, I fully understand but on a practical level, find it really hard. I am told that one day it will just "click" and come together, but when? How? What should I do - I don't believe I am suddenly going to wake up as a great musician.

Another way it has been explained to me is that the music is "on the outside", where it needs to be more internal and more felt. How on earth to I obtain that?

I don't think it just clicks unless you practise regularly for a while.

What I did (and get others to do) was to count several pieces everyday - sometimes with a metronome and sometimes without. I counted in various beats and sub-divisions. I started with relatively easy rhythms and then progressed to more complicated rhythms. This does help to "internalize" which is a good description of what you should be able to do eventually. On the piano you can count out loud whilst you play, which is important. Impossible to do that on the clarinet!!

How do you get on when playing in ensembles?

Keep at it!

I think playing with others and counting along (1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4 etc) are key; when I started playing jazz, I really couldn't work out where we were! After a while of counting along, I found that the shape of the music gets internalised. Now, I tend to 'feel' phrases and can follow most straightforward things without really concentrating ... still get lost occasionally when the concentration really wanders!

nick

I find that when I have tricky bits that once I 'know' how it goes I go for a walk.
My feet keep the pulse steady while I work out where everything fits.
The fact that I'm moving helps me to feel it.

Have you got the time or inclination to go dancing? Salsa classes can really help with feeling rhythm in your body, which is what it's all about really. I do think a feel for rhythm is an incredibly important musical skill, and it can often be underdeveloped in primarily classical musicians if attention isn't brought to it in the early stages. It's never too late though, and dancing is a fantastic way to develop a feel for rhythm.

I couldn't count for toffee for years, and really only learned to do it as an adult, when I sat in on my kids' piano lessons. I found 1-2-3-4 etc just didn't work for me, nor 1 - & - 2 - & etc. - the work involved in thinking words got in the way of everything else I was having to do with the music.
The kids learned the ta-te sounds - taa, taa for minims, ta for crotchet, ta-te for quavers, and somehow that proved easier for me to internalise than words which have meanings. My recorder teacher also got me using metronomes regularly - I'll set one ticking, and make each beat a crotchet, practising the ta-te sounds with it, away from my instrument at first, then with it. Dividing beats up evenly is only a tiny step though; what's hard is playing off a beat, or long notes tied to very short ones, or shifts in rhythm. For rhythmically challenging pieces I'll often count a smaller time interval than the time signature tells - thus for four crotchets in a bar, I'll tend to count quavers, which makes it easier to sub-sub-divide beats; once that's internalised I do have to go back and rethink in crotchets though, as otherwise the stresses of the bar come out wrongly. When playing with others I tap my foot - I know purists will disapprove, saying it ought all to be internalised, but if it isn't then tapping is a good way to begin the process of internalising it. I have heard of musicians tweaking a big toe so their critics can't see .

Don't lose heart over it. It was always my biggest stumbling block - and was bad enough when I was playing the piano, where at least the two hands can help each other out - it got much worse when I started playing a single-line-of-music instrument, but if I can manage to learn how to do it, you can too . (I still stumble, I might add, but am confident enough to try playing with others now, and like you, have reached a relatively advanced level).

Thank you for all the advice and words of encouragement. Music feels like a roller coaster ride at the moment with some highs but some real low points too and a bit of a crisis in confidence.

The old foot tapping (or to avoid offence to the anti-foot-tap-brigade "toe-moving-up-and-down-in-the-shoe") to the pulse seems to work for me, as the 1, 2 & 3, 4 count type thing doesn't seem to always click for me either. Just seems to be too many things to think about as well as tone, fingering, and which piece/instrument I'm actually playing!

The trick I learned a long time back is to count when your foot/toe goes up as well as down so just practice counting 1, 2, 3, 4 when foot hits the floor (downs so to speak) and count the &'s when it lifts (the ups). That way you're always counting 1 & 2 & 3 & 4, even if you forget to 'count' your foot should still be going with the pulse so if your foot's down you on the beat and if up your on the 'off-beat' or anacrusis for starting. It works for more complex time signatures such as compound, as long as you physically simplify the count e.g 6/8 is 2 beats of 3 (as in siciliana), and not trying to actually trying to count all 6 quavers or your foot would wear away!

It sounds mad but works for me, so may work for others...
(Only prob is if I'm tired my head tends to nod with the beat too! )

I reckon Judster's middle paragraph contains some good ideas.

Sorry if this sounds obvious - but make sure you are establishing the pulse clearly in your head before you start to play. A realistic pulse, not one which will need to slow down as soon as you get a more complex bar. If necessary take your speed from a trickier bit rather than from the beginning - and then match the start speed to it - if that makes sense.

You could also try learning to dance!

I assume from your name that you play the clarinet.

Have you thought about your breathing in relation to rhythm? Having moved from piano where you don't have to take a breath before you start playing to oboe where you do this is something my teacher is always nagging me about. You should breath in the tempo of the piece and I have found that doing so does actually sort out quite a lot of rhythm problems. Set a metronome count a couple of beats in your head, breathe in on one beat and play on the next. Within the piece any breaths you take should also be done in rhythm. It is important that the actual breathing in lasts for the whole beat - I have a tendancy to take a quick breath, wait for the beat to finish holding my breath and then play. I didn't actually realise I was doing this until my teacher pointed it out and I am finding it very hard to get out of the habit.

Lots of good ideas and thanks David, I shall do just that.

Definitely check your breathing. Can your teacher give you rhythm exercises to do? You just need to find a method that works for you. Some people like toe-tapping, others use the ta-te way of counting (not sure what its proper name is!).

The only really secure thing is to practice everything to a metronome, at varying speeds. Particularly when you're just beginning a new piece, so that you don't learn to think it wrong.